discussion about that existentialism crap, etc.

[stellar converter]

now, blitz was our resident existentialist, but as hes not here, why not start a discussion about it? and, please, no religious interjections, we will merely discuss the idea, and just because we are discussing it, doesnt mean we believe it.

i was listening to the song after aenima, coincidentally on the aenima cd, by TOOL, when i hear these lyrics: "today a young man on acid realized that all matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration, that we are all one conscienceness experiencing itself subobjectively, that there is no such thing as death, life is just a dream, and we are the imagination of ourself! heres tom with the weather."

now, obviously, that got me thinking(what, stellar does that? -fat bloke(i think thats who it is(a little white dwarf joke.))) and, obviously, this is why i dont want religious overtones or undertones(or whatever the word is): our conversation goes no where, it is just an argument.

now, im not going to kid my self, im certainly not the most eloquent person here(i start nearly every paragraph with the word 'now', for crying out loud

), in fact, i may be the most uneloquent person here. im sure a lot of that has to do with typing down the first thing that comes out of 'our'(<IMG SRC="http://forums.civfanatics.com/ubb/wink.gif" border=0>) brain, and not thinking about it. im sure a lot of that has to do with me only being 15...(and 11 months<IMG SRC="http://forums.civfanatics.com/ubb/wink.gif" border=0>).(this might actually be my longest post on record!<IMG SRC="http://forums.civfanatics.com/ubb/wink.gif" border=0>)

so, what i am going to do is step aside, and let others write what is on their mind. ill comment on things when i feel i have something to say.



[This message has been edited by stellar converter (edited July 27, 2001).]

 

[Lefty Scaevola]

The universe and all that is within it is one substance, spacetime. All the matter, life, energies therein are just local variations in density and combination of spacetime. All are a connected part of the whole.

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Gauis Mucius Scaevola Sinistra
Pontificator Pedanticus
Older, richer, and wiser than you.
Did I mention that I love the spellchecker?

 

[ComradeDavo]

hmmmm, existeness. i can think about it all i like, but i still come out with the answer 'yeah' or failing that 'hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm..........'.
way i see it, it just is.
But i do read white dwarf so i understand what steller meant with the fat bloke bit

 

[stellar converter]

you play wfb or something else? what army? are miniatures cheaper in britain than in the us? im startin to collect dwarfs.

 

[ComradeDavo]

yeah i play warhammer and warhammer 40,000 (and i used to play necromunda). For warhammer i got myself a nice dogs of war army but it's kinda lame in the new rules so i'm getting an orc and gobbo army with loads of squiqs!

i got an ork army for 40k.
As for prices, well i don't remember the last time anything was cheaper in britain than, well, anywhere

so i couldn't tell you.
Those new Dwarf modes are really cool, they should be fun to paint! but i really hate painting hair so i would have a bit of a nightmare painting all those beards.

 

[stellar converter]

what are the new rules for dogs o war? (i dont have the new rule book yet...($45!!! yikes!)) orcs and gobs look fun, but expensive. are the squigs a type o gob?

 

[ComradeDavo]

squiqs are kinda like a crazy version of dogs, with big teath, most often their red and they bounce!
I don't know if you've visted the GW site yet but it's got a whole list of models, mail order and stuff and a US bit as well. It's address is: http://www.games-workshop.com/
the thing with the dogs of war is that my army worked well in the old rules but not so well now. i think their rules were published a few white dwarfs ago.

 

[Brad]

WOAH WAY off topic there guys... but that's ok by me... I'm not an official moderator... We have to monitor ourselves to some extent...
As to the topic... well, my opinion is that we are all here... not just a figment of somethings imagination, or just in a dream... we are real, and the things we see are real as well. That is my 4 cents

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Silence Fills the Nothingness......NERRRR!

Even though stuff happens that we don't plan, be a man... use you hand.

<IMG SRC="http://forums.civfanatics.com/image_uploads/online.gif" border=0>

 

[Lefty Scaevola]

Compare the physical natire of the oneness of the universe, one thing of lumpy space time, with the various religious theories of oneness.

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Gauis Mucius Scaevola Sinistra
Pontificator Pedanticus
Older, richer, and wiser than you.
Did I mention that I love the spellchecker?

 

[FearlessLeader2]

So. Existentialism topic, but no religion allowed. Oooo-kaaay...

Why are we here? Are we even here at all?

Well, I know I am here, cogito ergo sum. That leads me to ask the questions, why, how, who? As in why are we here, how did we get here, and who did it? Naturally, all of these invite theology into the discussion, but let us struggle along without.

So why are we here? Well, apparently, for no reason whatsoever. How did we get here? Blind chance, through a series of events so unlikely as to beggar any man's capacity for credulence. All of which makes whodunnit irrelevant.

So since we are here, and for no purpose, and with no higher power or guidance, now we have a new set of questions:

Why do humans possess a conscience?

Why do humans contemplate the nature of good and evil?

Why do humans fear death?

As to the first, there is no rational explanation. It is not any form of survival trait, as survival traits afect the individual, not the species. Altruism is anti-Darwinian at its very core.

The second? Apparently this is nothing but the work of demented individuals who are trying to see order in what has been decreed to be chaos by their 'betters'.

The last? Again, no rational explanation exists. When an animal senses its death approaching, it meekly crawls off to die in a dark place. Why does not the human animal follow suit? Only the most sickly, after years of pain, mental or physical, choose to meekly succumb to death's embrace. The healthy defy death with every thought and deed, exercising, developing medicines, struggling to unlock the secrets of aging.

To what end does it(humanity) defy the inexorable onslaught of time's arrow? Apparently the entire human species is demented, because its individuals seem to think that they should live forever. This bizarre mind-set flies in the face of all logic, and is apparently a pandemic dementia shared by all humans. Only a few out of the masses have managed to escape this mental illness, by embracing various philosophies that de-emphasize the physical, which, when you consider it, is merely swapping one dementia for another.

The questions posed by decreeing that there is no higher purpose roundly and soundly declare all of humanity insane. Then again, if I didn't think there were a higher purpose, I suppose I'd go insane, so that has a kind of cosmic symmetry that I find amusing.

Well, it's been a fun topic, but I'll stick with my silly religion, thank you. It makes a lot more sense, and I don't have to commit myself to an asylum.

 

[stellar converter]

i created the topic, so i get to go off of it!

i practice religion. i am not an existentialist, but i just wanted to discuss it.

fearless, are you saying that, when animals are about to die, or are in danger of dying, they just stand there, doing nothing? no, they too have survival instincts. if you attack a bear, or its offspring, then they will flee, to escape danger, or they will protect there young. do they practice medicine? no. they do not have the mental capacity to do so. do they fill their bodies with poisons, like tobacco, booze, and other drugs? no, they dont. now, as i am a religious person, and i do believe in a supreme being, i believe the reason animals arent scared to die, is because they are not capable of commiting sin, and do not have to worry about being punished in the after life. all humans who have reached an age of accountability, and realize the difference between good and evil, have commited sin. they cannot reach the highest degree of heaven if they have sinned, and have not repented, so they should be afraid. many of them havent led good lives, or havent completed all necessary prerequisites, like baptism. (i can talk about religion if i want to; i set the rules, i can break them!)

 

[penvzila]

It is good to see more people use this word, spacetime, because the two concepts are truly one.

 

[Supernaut]

Glad to see that a discussion about existentialism can lead so seamlessly into one about Warhammer

That quote from the Tool album is Bill Hicks, excellent comedian (think Dennis Leary without the endorsements) whose trademark was his unrepentant smoking, then he gave up smoking, and died soon after from throat cancer - who said God hasn't got a sense of humour?

If we're talking existentialism, why has no-one metioned Sartre or Camus yet? Remember hell is other people and whatever I do it amounts to the same: absolutely nothing.

Yours, standing on a beach with a gun in my hand, staring at the eyes of the dead man on the sand


Sorry, got carried away there - basically life has a meaning, but that is based not on this life but on the next - the mistake the existentialists made was to think that this life is all we have, and so therefore must be meaningless. But that is like a foetus asking itself why it has arms and legs when there is nowhere to walk to and nothing to grasp.

 

[stellar converter]

you play any warhammer supernaut? i see youre from uk, doesnt everyone play it there?

"But that is like a foetus asking itself why it has arms and legs when there is nowhere to walk to and nothing to grasp."

that is very interesting. you have a good point there.

"you know, im not completeley convinced drugs are really all that bad. here, do me a favor, go home and take all of your cds, tapes, records, mp3, etc(

), put them in a box and burn 'em. cause all those musicians who made all that wonderful music that has enhanced your lives over the years, rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrreally f----- high!"(my memory wasnt quite exact on that one!

)

"lets get one thing straight here, this isnt a war on drugs this is a war on personal freedom, lets keep that in mind at all times."

btw, stellar is not a drug addict, he just thinks those quotes are funny.

"Yours, standing on a beach with a gun in my hand, staring at the eyes of the dead man on the sand"

i do not understand that.?

 

[thedirk]

Fearless, I admire your futile attempt to discuss philosophy without bringing up religion. (yes I realize you view this as futile too) This of course is impossible because at the root they are seeking to answer the same questions. I'm not saying philosophy=religion, there are differences. However to try to discuss one without the other, is like discussing marxism with no reference to economics.


[This message has been edited by thedirk (edited July 31, 2001).]

 

[Supernaut]

"The Beatles were so high they even let Ringo sing". Stellar - glad to find another fan of the great Bill out there. Though I don't play Warhammer - I'm more of a roleplayer than a wargamer. And I'd guess that most of Britain hasn't even heard of Warhammer.

The other quote you didn't understand is from 'Killing an Arab', the first single by English band The Cure (all those girls at your high school who dress totally in black are big fans of this band, believe me). It's based on a story by Albert Camus (one of the great existentialist philosophers) called 'L'Etranger' (he was French - interestingly this word can be translated as 'The Stranger', 'The Foreigner' or 'The Outsider', which is the option most peole go for. (Except for The Cure - the chorus is 'I am the stranger, killing an arab') I find it really interesting that the French have no separate word for what are, in English, three very separate concepts. E.g. I can marry a foreigner but she would not be a stranger to me, or I can be an outsider in my own country). To give a synopsis of L'etranger would take way too long, especially as I am at work right now, but basically a guy in French Algeria goes on the beach, meets an Arab and realises he can either kill the Arab (he has a gun with him) or not kill him - life comes down to that simple choice - do it or don't do it. But, as Robert Smith of the Cure puts it, 'whatever I do, it amounts to the same: absolutely nothing'. In other words, killing someone doesn't make any difference, life is meaningless, let's all dress in black, drink coffee on the Left Bank and shag Simone de Beauvoir. This is a basic summary of atheistic existentialism (there is a form of Christian existentialism, but that's another matter - it certainly doesn't involve shagging Simone de Beauvoir)

I quite like the aspect of ex-ism that says everything is a simple yes/no choice (e.g. I can either have another drink, or I can not have another drink, I like drinking, so I'll have another drink) though it does completely ignore any thought of consequences. I'm not at all attracted by the nihilism of it though.

I agree with thedirk that it is impossible to have a meaningful philosophical discussion without bringing up religion (if only because most philosophers have been religious) or vice versa. But fun trying

 

[duke o' york]

Fearless, you made a very common philosophical leap with your quotation from Descartes. Cogito ergo sum is a fallacy. The only thing that you can conclusively prove from this (and in fact in the whole of philosophy) is that a something you choose to regard as yourself is experiencing a thought. More correctly, I think therefore I am should be I think therefore there are thoughts. There is no possible a posteriori way to prove that just because someone/thing is thinking that there must a "you" who is having these thoughts. The ultimate proof of Descartes' theory is that it is impossible to believe "I do not exist", for in having the thought you prove existence. It does not, however, prove any kind of physical status so all humanity as we perceive it could be rows and rows of brains in vats (an old philosophical idea riped off by the Matrix).
I probably haven't explained this very well, but if I could then I'd be sitting now in a tweed jacket and a black polo neck, drawing on my Gauloises Blonde as I considered the fledgeling philosophical ideas of a particularly gorgeous young student of mine while trying to make my close inspection of her chest not too obvious

.

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in vino veritas

 

[Lefty Scaevola]

Cogito ergo sum.
Sum ergo edo.

I am going to get breakfast now.

 

[duke o' york]

Correct my latin, but:
Bibendo ergo sum

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in vino veritas

 

[animepornstar]

i´m drunk, therefore i´m drunk.

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