freethink
King
Ill do my own research as well but this is a good starting point
The thing is even most experts on India might not be the most versed on Harrapa which is its own creature entirely
We are moving forward!
Discussion: Unique Epics
- Thread starter Publicola
- Start date
The thing is even most experts on India might not be the most versed on Harrapa which is its own creature entirely
We are moving forward!
Sergey_Kalinin
Chieftain
Adding my two cents about Russian epic.
If we can take material from Realism Invictus mod we have:
Tale of Igor's Campaign for the Heroic Epic and
Leo Tolstoy's War and Peace for the National Epic.
Well that's OK and the pics (in attachment) represent the famous Yaroslavna's lament (fragment of Tale of Igor's campaign) illustration and Natasha Rostova and Andrey Bolkonsky on the ball illustration for War and Peace!
But if we need we also can consider something different:
From wiki we have: a national epic is an epic poem or a literary work of epic scope which seeks or is believed to capture and express the essence or spirit of a particular nation.
I suppose that A.Pushkin's novel Eugene Onegin - traditionally called as "encyclopedia of Russian life" (Belinsky) for the deep description and analysis of social processes in Russia at that time is more relevant to this case. War and Peace is more historical and only tied to the specific people and specific events of the Napoleonic wars while Eugene Onegin has been widely taken away on quotations even in modern Russian language. Image 3 in attachment also corresponds to the ball (Tatyana and Eugene).
Talking about Russian heroic epic - we have a really great number of variants to choose. But first that comes to my mind is Lermontov's Borodino:
- Скажи-ка, дядя, ведь не даром
Москва, спаленная пожаром,
Французу отдана?
Ведь были ж схватки боевые,
Да, говорят, еще какие!
Недаром помнит вся Россия
Про день Бородина!
...
The main pros for it are:
1.Borodino is exactly a poem dedicated to national heroic past and military success in war with France. While Tale of Igor's campaign tells about unsuccessful campaign.
2.Both Borodino and Tale of Igor's campaign are studied in schools in Russia. But quotes from Borodino are natural and frequent in modern Russian language while Tale of Igor's campaign was written on Old East Slavic and we have several literaly translations with no famous colloquial expressions.
3. Borodino is dedicated to the victory in so called First Patriotic War (2nd Patriotic is WW2) that is considered to be a much more significant milestone in history of Russian civilization than confrontation with Cumans and other nomadic peoples in Steppes. At the same time we have less information about the original text of the Tale of Igor's Campaign, the original manuscript (also a copy made in 17th century) was lost more than 100 years ago.
Anyway the decision is yours. I attach all the images (img1 - Tale of Igor's campaign from Realism Invictus; img2 - War and Peace from Realism Invictus; img3 - Eugene Onegin; img4 - Borodino).
If we can take material from Realism Invictus mod we have:
Tale of Igor's Campaign for the Heroic Epic and
Leo Tolstoy's War and Peace for the National Epic.
Well that's OK and the pics (in attachment) represent the famous Yaroslavna's lament (fragment of Tale of Igor's campaign) illustration and Natasha Rostova and Andrey Bolkonsky on the ball illustration for War and Peace!
But if we need we also can consider something different:
From wiki we have: a national epic is an epic poem or a literary work of epic scope which seeks or is believed to capture and express the essence or spirit of a particular nation.
I suppose that A.Pushkin's novel Eugene Onegin - traditionally called as "encyclopedia of Russian life" (Belinsky) for the deep description and analysis of social processes in Russia at that time is more relevant to this case. War and Peace is more historical and only tied to the specific people and specific events of the Napoleonic wars while Eugene Onegin has been widely taken away on quotations even in modern Russian language. Image 3 in attachment also corresponds to the ball (Tatyana and Eugene).
Talking about Russian heroic epic - we have a really great number of variants to choose. But first that comes to my mind is Lermontov's Borodino:
- Скажи-ка, дядя, ведь не даром
Москва, спаленная пожаром,
Французу отдана?
Ведь были ж схватки боевые,
Да, говорят, еще какие!
Недаром помнит вся Россия
Про день Бородина!
...
The main pros for it are:
1.Borodino is exactly a poem dedicated to national heroic past and military success in war with France. While Tale of Igor's campaign tells about unsuccessful campaign.
2.Both Borodino and Tale of Igor's campaign are studied in schools in Russia. But quotes from Borodino are natural and frequent in modern Russian language while Tale of Igor's campaign was written on Old East Slavic and we have several literaly translations with no famous colloquial expressions.
3. Borodino is dedicated to the victory in so called First Patriotic War (2nd Patriotic is WW2) that is considered to be a much more significant milestone in history of Russian civilization than confrontation with Cumans and other nomadic peoples in Steppes. At the same time we have less information about the original text of the Tale of Igor's Campaign, the original manuscript (also a copy made in 17th century) was lost more than 100 years ago.
Anyway the decision is yours. I attach all the images (img1 - Tale of Igor's campaign from Realism Invictus; img2 - War and Peace from Realism Invictus; img3 - Eugene Onegin; img4 - Borodino).
Attachments
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Publicola
King
- Joined
- Apr 26, 2014
- Messages
- 759
Mostly. That's the most famous part of the inscription. OTOH, I'd really like to use a background image that shows just how ridiculous the Inscription is -- how big it is, and how high off the ground it was carved. (It's in the middle of an enormous cliff face, with no visible way to reach it. Local legends said it was carved by the ancient gods. In reality, Darius had ordered stairs cut into the cliff, the Inscription carved from the top down, then the stairs removed as the workers withdrew.)
This image isn't big enough, but it resembles what I had in mind:
https://www.livius.org/site/assets/files/1978/behistun.400x0-is-pid30801.jpg
freethink
King
It certainly is a good idea, for now I am using the first picture you proposed- the upside is that the relief can be seen in detail.
If a bigger version of the cliff picture is found, then we can use that.
rmontaruli
Prince
I have put your suggestions in the google Doc.
Can you find a quote for Furioso, if you would like?
I don't know Orlando Furioso so well.
I neither know why somebody report it as National Heroic.
It is the story of Orlando, one of Charlemagne's paladins in the war against Moors.
The author is italian, but not the story.
I don't also think there is a quote that italian people can recognize from Orlando Furioso.
I'll try to find something about Italy, to quote, but i'm unsure...
freethink
King
Well ideally we would get the opinions of multiple people here.
We already have two quotes for Russia, However, if you could find an English translation of what you are proposing that would be of great help. I can't really say I like the pictures as I thought that we were (mostly) using period appropriate things. However, I do sort of like, the fourth picture which I think captures the style of 19th century Russian realism (I think).
freethink
King
I was thinking of hunting for an Orlando quote but since you might find something, ill leave that be for now.
My available free time today will be spent on deciding on Harrapa's second quote, and fixing the table. @Publicola- thanks for helping !
Also, if anyone has proposals for the countries that are blank, they can put them directly in the google doc- that's what its for
.
Sergey_Kalinin
Chieftain
Oh, i see. I have just taken what we had in Realism Invictus for the example and found something in similar style. If we look forward for realism - please find the illustrations made by Pushkin himself to this novel in the attachment (img1 and img2). Also I add some less "cartoony" pics.
Talking about quotes for Eugene Onegin there ones either in Russian and in English (the novel is translated into many languages!). The most famous parts are - the duel, introduction, the letter to Tatyana - but all of these abstracts are too long. Here is not so long abstract in Russian from Eugene to Tatyana:
«Мечтам и годам нет возврата;
Не обновлю души моей…
Я вас люблю любовью брата
И, может быть, еще нежней.
Послушайте ж меня без гнева:
Сменит не раз младая дева
Мечтами легкие мечты;
Так деревцо свои листы
Меняет с каждою весною.
Так видно небом суждено.
Полюбите вы снова: но…
Учитесь властвовать собою;
Не всякий вас, как я, поймет;
К беде неопытность ведет».
And in English (translation of Ch.Johnston):
``I've dreams and years past resurrection;
a soul that nothing can renew...
I feel a brotherly affection,
or something tenderer still, for you.
Listen to me without resentment:
girls often change to their contentment
light dreams for new ones... so we see
each springtime, on the growing tree,
fresh leaves... for such is heaven's mandate.
You'll love again, but you must teach
your heart some self-restraint; for each
and every man won't understand it
as I have... learn from my belief
that inexperience leads to grief.''
Talking about Borodino here is the original abstract:
«Скажи-ка, дядя, ведь недаром
Москва, спаленная пожаром,
Французу отдана?
Ведь были ж схватки боевые,
Да, говорят, еще какие!
Недаром помнит вся Россия
Про день Бородина!
Да, были люди в наше время,
Не то, что нынешнее племя:
Богатыри — не вы!
Плохая им досталась доля:
Не многие вернулись с поля…
Не будь на то господня воля,
Не отдали б Москвы!»
...
And this part in English (translation Peter Solovioff):
– Hey tell, old man, had we a cause
When Moscow, razed by fire, once was
Given up to Frenchman's blow?
Old-timers talk about some frays,
And they remember well those days!
With cause all Russia fashions lays
About Borodino!
– Yea, were there men when I was young,
Whose songs your tribe is not to 've sung:
They'd fight, – you 're none as good!
An evil lot have they been drawn:
Few left the grounds to which they had gone...
Had it not been God's will alone,
Old Moscow should have stood!...
Img6 and img7 are some more illustration if you find them more appropriate. But the poem is about how the old-man (veteran and eyewitness) tells the story and lessons of that war to future generations (so the first one in my previous post should be most relevant).
Attachments
freethink
King
I have to work now, Ill look at these later.
Maybe we can come to a compromise where we use one of these.
Not so sure, but thank you so much for the suggestion!
So far I am liking the second part.
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Sergey_Kalinin
Chieftain
As for Byzantine Empire - we have Digenes Akritas song. Please find infomation here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digenes_Akritas (for Heroic Epic) - it's very much like the song of Roland.
Or there is Strategikon of Kekaumenos (not so much information in English - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategikon_of_Kekaumenos). If you need I can translate more.
Also I have heard about - The Tale of Isminia and Ismin by Eustathios Makrembolites. There is plenty of Byzantine extant literature.
Or there is Strategikon of Kekaumenos (not so much information in English - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategikon_of_Kekaumenos). If you need I can translate more.
Also I have heard about - The Tale of Isminia and Ismin by Eustathios Makrembolites. There is plenty of Byzantine extant literature.
Sergey_Kalinin
Chieftain
Good luck! It would be a pleasure to help you with something
freethink
King
@Steb @Publicola , what do you think about @Sergey_Kalinin proposals?
I think we should keep Tale of Igor's Campaign for the Heroic Epic. But possibly include Eugene Onegin. and the quote provided.
I think we should keep Tale of Igor's Campaign for the Heroic Epic. But possibly include Eugene Onegin. and the quote provided.
freethink
King
I decided to add Eugenie Onegin!
Thank you so much for everything already.
Could you translate a quote of the Strategikon of Kekaumenos?
Sergey_Kalinin
Chieftain
Good, always welcome!
Here is Strategicon itself: https://ancientwisdoms.ac.uk/mss/viewer.html?viewColumns=greekLit:tlg3017.Syno298.sawsGrc01:divedition.divsection7&viewOffsets=-2411
Here are translations: https://ancientwisdoms.ac.uk/library/kekaumenos-consilia-et-narrationes/ - I can choose some interesting abstract for you. The second part is more relevant - the Strategicon itself - his advices to Byzantine generals.
§ 15. О коварстве врага и мудрости полководца
"...А если неприятель неразумен, опасайся его вдвойне, так как скорее всего он сам в безрассудной храбрости внезапно нападет на тебя ночью или днем либо сделает что другое, несвойственное людям, имеющим разум. Поэтому со всей осторожностью нужно обеспечить себе безопасность и ни простоватых не презирать, ни хитроумных не страшиться..."
§ 15. About the treachery of the enemy and the wisdom of the commander
"...If your rival is a fool, you must fear him twice, for he will rush at you suddenly, night or day, exposing himself to all sorts of dangers, or do anything else that is not proper to reasonable men. For this reason, it is necessary that you make sure with all kinds of precautions and neither despise the men who are simpler, nor tremble before the cunning..." - that's what exactly written in Russian, sorry for possible errors in translation if any.
§ 15. About the treachery of the enemy and the wisdom of the commander
"...If your opponent is a fool, fear him twice as much; for he will be all the more reckless, and attack you, either by night or by day, all of a sudden, or he will do something else that is quite alien to sensible people. So you must make yourself secure with all possible protection, and neither despise men who are simpler, nor tremble before the cunning..." - That's English translation on this site, i don't like it
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freethink
King
Good, always welcome!
Here is Strategicon itself: https://ancientwisdoms.ac.uk/mss/viewer.html?viewColumns=greekLit:tlg3017.Syno298.sawsGrc01:divedition.divsection7&viewOffsets=-2411
Here are translations: https://ancientwisdoms.ac.uk/library/kekaumenos-consilia-et-narrationes/ - I can choose some interesting abstract for you. The second part is more relevant - the Strategicon itself - his advices to Byzantine generals.
§ 15. О коварстве врага и мудрости полководца
"...А если неприятель неразумен, опасайся его вдвойне, так как скорее всего он сам в безрассудной храбрости внезапно нападет на тебя ночью или днем либо сделает что другое, несвойственное людям, имеющим разум. Поэтому со всей осторожностью нужно обеспечить себе безопасность и ни простоватых не презирать, ни хитроумных не страшиться..."
§ 15. About the treachery of the enemy and the wisdom of the commander
"...If your rival is a fool, you must fear him twice, for he will rush at you suddenly, night or day, exposing himself to all sorts of dangers, or do anything else that is not proper to reasonable men. For this reason, it is necessary that you make sure with all kinds of precautions and neither despise the men who are simpler, nor tremble before the cunning..." - that's what exactly written in Russian, sorry for possible errors in translation if any.
§ 15. About the treachery of the enemy and the wisdom of the commander
"...If your opponent is a fool, fear him twice as much; for he will be all the more reckless, and attack you, either by night or by day, all of a sudden, or he will do something else that is quite alien to sensible people. So you must make yourself secure with all possible protection, and neither despise men who are simpler, nor tremble before the cunning..." - That's English translation on this site, i don't like it
Given the Byzantine emphasis on espionage, I think this quote fits in perfectly! I am putting it in is a National Epic.
Franz_van_der_Aaagh
Chieftain
- Joined
- Oct 18, 2019
- Messages
- 14
I have some minor commentaries on Poland, Portugal and Congo:
- Poland - The choice fits well, although "Wojna chocimska" could be swapped for something from XIX c. Sienkiewicz's works, such as "Potop" or "Krzyżacy". They are much more renowned nowadays and have had great importance in creating of the contemporary Polish historic immaginary (as "Wojna chocimska" did, but just up for a century and for the Szlachta class, nevertheless, both are on point). I'll provide some quotes and images on them as well.
- Portugal - I would add "Mensagem" of Fernando Pessoa as a National Epic and move "Os Lusíadas" to the epic one. I was also thinking about "Os Maias", "Felizmente Há Luar", "Frei Luís de Sousa" or some Gallician-Portuguese cantigas, but "Mensagem" seems to me the most involving one as it interprets whole Portuguese history up to the 30's of XX c.
- Congo - A thing to reconsider - as the Kingdom of Congo seems to feed both francophone and lusophone part of the region it might be cool to mention an Angolan work of Pepetela "A Revolta na Casa dos Ídolos" ("A Revolt in the House of Idols"), that although is marked by struggle against a colonial discourse and was written in Portuguese in late 70. of XX c., tells a story of a fight of the Congolese against the opressors in 1514.
- Poland - The choice fits well, although "Wojna chocimska" could be swapped for something from XIX c. Sienkiewicz's works, such as "Potop" or "Krzyżacy". They are much more renowned nowadays and have had great importance in creating of the contemporary Polish historic immaginary (as "Wojna chocimska" did, but just up for a century and for the Szlachta class, nevertheless, both are on point). I'll provide some quotes and images on them as well.
- Portugal - I would add "Mensagem" of Fernando Pessoa as a National Epic and move "Os Lusíadas" to the epic one. I was also thinking about "Os Maias", "Felizmente Há Luar", "Frei Luís de Sousa" or some Gallician-Portuguese cantigas, but "Mensagem" seems to me the most involving one as it interprets whole Portuguese history up to the 30's of XX c.
- Congo - A thing to reconsider - as the Kingdom of Congo seems to feed both francophone and lusophone part of the region it might be cool to mention an Angolan work of Pepetela "A Revolta na Casa dos Ídolos" ("A Revolt in the House of Idols"), that although is marked by struggle against a colonial discourse and was written in Portuguese in late 70. of XX c., tells a story of a fight of the Congolese against the opressors in 1514.
freethink
King
Thanks for your suggestions
I would like to see a whole Polish proposal. Then people can discuss here, how well the quotes represent Poland. I cannot claim to be a Polish expert. Same goes with Portugal. I would be interested to hear more Mansgem.
The thing about Congo is that I was looking for things that came from native authors, or at the very least were native stories A Revolt in the House of Idols was still written by a European who did not grow up in the Congo (or Angola) correct? I realize finding sources on the Congo are hard, but the folklore I used tells a little about their values, and features a creation story.
I think the myths/fables, get closer to showing Congolese identity more then anything (I'll tell you at first I wanted to use Things Fall Apart but obviously that would had been incorrect, as Yourba/Congolese while having some points of interactions are not the same. So unless the attitude was unanimous, I think Ill keep the Congo quotes for now. That being said you can still put a full proposal for them if you like.
freethink
King
Update!
All of the civilizations founded in the Ancient period (before 500) have been done!
Table of contents changes, red means there are no entries, blue means one entry is done. Normal means both entries have been done! If you make an entry, be sure to change its color in the table of contents!
Lets finish this project and work on the red/blue parts!
Thanks to everyone for their contributions!
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Ww_NOV27og8fUpziGSvTxKFN6QRcg7lZ0pXo77JVn2c/edit?usp=sharing
All of the civilizations founded in the Ancient period (before 500) have been done!
Table of contents changes, red means there are no entries, blue means one entry is done. Normal means both entries have been done! If you make an entry, be sure to change its color in the table of contents!
Lets finish this project and work on the red/blue parts!
Thanks to everyone for their contributions!
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Ww_NOV27og8fUpziGSvTxKFN6QRcg7lZ0pXo77JVn2c/edit?usp=sharing
freethink
King
When all entries are done, Ill post here, asking if anyone want to discuss any of the quotes. After that we will ping Leoreth to tell him its been done.
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