Discussion: Unique Epics

[Publicola]

For the Holy Roman Empire, we could probably pick something that stands for general German culture during the Middle Ages.

- Tellenlied (the legend of William Tell) might fit the 'Heroic Epic', though it's a late-medieval legend set in Switzerland and tells the story of Switzerland becoming independent of an Austrian (HRE) tyrant. But it is Germanic, fits within and borrows extensively from the German heroic legend, so it might still work
- Nibelungenlied (Song of the Nibelung, that inspired Wagner's opera cycle) might work as either Heroic or National Epic. It was an obviously 'heroic'-style story, but it's a very culture-defining epic, both in its original form and when it was resurrected by the German Enlightenment and later by Wagner.

 

[freethink]

For the Holy Roman Empire, we could probably pick something that stands for general German culture during the Middle Ages.

- Tellenlied (the legend of William Tell) might fit the 'Heroic Epic', though it's a late-medieval legend set in Switzerland and tells the story of Switzerland becoming independent of an Austrian (HRE) tyrant. But it is Germanic, fits within and borrows extensively from the German heroic legend, so it might still work
- Nibelungenlied (Song of the Nibelung, that inspired Wagner's opera cycle) might work as either Heroic or National Epic. It was an obviously 'heroic'-style story, but it's a very culture-defining epic, both in its original form and when it was resurrected by the German Enlightenment and later by Wagner.

Definitely Tellenlied is perfect, Nibelungenlied is good as well. Do you think we can use Sigurd for Germany if we used Nibelungenlied for HRE or are the two too similar?

 

[DC123456789]

You ended up going with Analects of Confucius for China's National Epic? A bit of an odd choice, since it's not exactly a story (or anything like a story). What was wrong with Romance of the Three Kingdoms again?

 

[freethink]

I was moved in some respects by @soul-breathing's suggestions on what best represents Chinese Civilization. The ideas of Confucianism (not just Confucius himself) and strong administrative bureaucracy pervades most if not almost all aspects of Chinese Civilization. Why sometimes compromises were made especially for nations without much source material I did often look for what was part of the national character.
The Spring/Autumn Period so rich in literature and important in determing China's future is often completely overlooked in favor of later periods. I thought maybe the Analects and the Art of War showed different schools of Chinese thought (Confucianism and Legalism respectively)

Three Kingdoms is famous, especially among foreigners but the more I learn about China myself the more I see the legacy of the Analects and the Art of War all encompassing. Indeed some of the Three Kingdom characters, especially Liu Bei's advisor seems to show the 'exemplary character' arch type Confucius was talking about. This could very easily become a chicken-egg argument here.

 

[DC123456789]

I was moved in some respects by @soul-breathing's suggestions on what best represents Chinese Civilization. The ideas of Confucianism (not just Confucius himself) and strong administrative bureaucracy pervades most if not almost all aspects of Chinese Civilization. Why sometimes compromises were made especially for nations without much source material I did often look for what was part of the national character.
The Spring/Autumn Period so rich in literature and important in determing China's future is often completely overlooked in favor of later periods. I thought maybe the Analects and the Art of War showed different schools of Chinese thought (Confucianism and Legalism respectively)

Three Kingdoms is famous, especially among foreigners but the more I learn about China myself the more I see the legacy of the Analects and the Art of War all encompassing. Indeed some of the Three Kingdom characters, especially Liu Bei's advisor seems to show the 'exemplary character' arch type Confucius was talking about. This could very easily become a chicken-egg argument here.

I suppose that makes sense, but there's still the rather significant problem that it's not really a story or piece of literature - at least, not in the same general genre as all of the other Heroic and National Epics, which makes it stand out rather jarringly.

 

[merijn_v1]

I updated the list with entries for the Dutch. I still need to add the quote for the National Epic, but I will get back to that.

 

[borhap88]

I don't know Orlando Furioso so well.
I neither know why somebody report it as National Heroic.
It is the story of Orlando, one of Charlemagne's paladins in the war against Moors.
The author is italian, but not the story.

I'd like to propose an alternative National Heroic, even if it's less known than Orlando Furioso:
"La battaglia di Legnano" ("The battle of Legnano") https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_battaglia_di_Legnano, an opera by Giuseppe Verdi. It tells about battle between the imperial army of Frederick Barbarossa and the troops of the Lombard League in 1176, near the town of Legnano (Lombardy). In a proclamation issued in Bergamo on August 3, 1848, the revolutionary leader Giuseppe Garibaldi referred to the historic Battle of Legnano as a source of inspiration for his own struggle for the Unification of Italy.
The QUOTE could be: "Italia risorge vestita di Gloria, invitta e regina qual'era sarà" / "Italy rises again robed in glory!, Unconquered and a queen she shall be as once she was!"
The IMAGE could be The Carroccio ("a large four-wheeled wagon bearing the city signs around which the militia of the medieval communes gathered and fought"). Unfortunately, it has recently become a symbol of the current, former northern secessionist, party of the League (right).

 

[Franz_van_der_Aaagh]

Thanks for your suggestions
I would like to see a whole Polish proposal. Then people can discuss here, how well the quotes represent Poland. I cannot claim to be a Polish expert. Same goes with Portugal. I would be interested to hear more Mansgem.

The thing about Congo is that I was looking for things that came from native authors, or at the very least were native stories A Revolt in the House of Idols was still written by a European who did not grow up in the Congo (or Angola) correct? I realize finding sources on the Congo are hard, but the folklore I used tells a little about their values, and features a creation story.

I think the myths/fables, get closer to showing Congolese identity more then anything (I'll tell you at first I wanted to use Things Fall Apart but obviously that would had been incorrect, as Yourba/Congolese while having some points of interactions are not the same. So unless the attitude was unanimous, I think Ill keep the Congo quotes for now. That being said you can still put a full proposal for them if you like.

Alright, so couple of remarks:
1. As "Wojna Chocimska" seems to me not translated into English I would refrain from using it. I'll try to dig into reinassance works, which are shorter and that I could try to translate, but on the other hand earlier and would come online less anachronically.

2. Actually, Pepetela is Angolan himself and was one of the key figures in the de-colonization movement. So, question if post-colonial authors are more local or Western I would deem tricky. Nevertheless, A Revolt is a reformulation of actual Congolese historical events and his work is a corner-stone for contemporary Angolan state, then it seems totally relevant and representative for me. But that is not a dogmatic statement, just wanted to problematize this obvious issue of "National Epic". So, I'll try to look up for a quote to have something to discuss.

3. I was thinking about Brazilian epics and I would propose Os Sertões of Euclides da Cunha (neo-realist, my only hesitation is his regionalist inclination, however, it is possible to defend him) or O Navio Negreiro of Castro Alves (romantic, shorter poem, but important and derives a lot form Dante) as a National Epic (however not very strongly) instead of Iracema.

 

[Steb]

I suppose that makes sense, but there's still the rather significant problem that it's not really a story or piece of literature - at least, not in the same general genre as all of the other Heroic and National Epics, which makes it stand out rather jarringly.

I'd like to voice my agreement with this again. Here's what I said earlier about using treaties of philosophy and war as the Chinese epics:

I'm not Chinese and I haven't read any of the important Chinese literature, so I wouldn't consider my opinion as authoritative. But my understanding is that we're looking for literary works. Your suggestions, while certainly of utmost importance in Chinese culture, are philosophical works or treaties on war, and don't fit as well I think. Consider that Confucius or Sun Tzu are not Great Artists, so they wouldn't be able to compose their own works in game.

In the context of this thread/project, National and Heroic Epics are literary works and are created by Great Artists. I'm not 100% sure about the Analects, but I don't think it qualifies as a literary work. Confucius is, in-game, a Great Scientist, so he wouldn't be able to create the National Epic anyway. As for the Art of War, I have read it and am confident it doesn't fit the concept of a Heroic Epic at all. It's a collection of aphorisms about the military, not a story or poem; it also doesn't involve any heroes. Sun Tzu is a Great General in-game and wouldn't be able to create the Heroic Epic, either. The fact that these two works are important in Chinese culture, perhaps even the best representations of the national character of China, doesn't matter IMO.

I'm no specialist of the Chinese literary tradition and I have no idea if Three Kingdoms or Water Margin or some poem I don't know about is the best choice for either Epic. But I'd like to see that literary tradition referenced somehow, rather than going straight to the philosophical classics.

As a counterpoint to my own argument, Hegel said that China had no national epic: https://www.americanacademy.de/the-absent-epic/. Hmm, this weakens my point, but I still stand by it. Maybe the National Epic can be a philosophical classic while the Heroic Epic is a later work telling the actual story if a Chinese hero.

 

[freethink]

I'd like to voice my agreement with this again. Here's what I said earlier about using treaties of philosophy and war as the Chinese epics:

In the context of this thread/project, National and Heroic Epics are literary works and are created by Great Artists. I'm not 100% sure about the Analects, but I don't think it qualifies as a literary work. Confucius is, in-game, a Great Scientist, so he wouldn't be able to create the National Epic anyway. As for the Art of War, I have read it and am confident it doesn't fit the concept of a Heroic Epic at all. It's a collection of aphorisms about the military, not a story or poem; it also doesn't involve any heroes. Sun Tzu is a Great General in-game and wouldn't be able to create the Heroic Epic, either. The fact that these two works are important in Chinese culture, perhaps even the best representations of the national character of China, doesn't matter IMO.

I'm no specialist of the Chinese literary tradition and I have no idea if Three Kingdoms or Water Margin or some poem I don't know about is the best choice for either Epic. But I'd like to see that literary tradition referenced somehow, rather than going straight to the philosophical classics.

As a counterpoint to my own argument, Hegel said that China had no national epic: https://www.americanacademy.de/the-absent-epic/. Hmm, this weakens my point, but I still stand by it. Maybe the National Epic can be a philosophical classic while the Heroic Epic is a later work telling the actual story if a Chinese hero.

To put it mildly, I disagree categorically. Put it this way, if it doesn't matter the epics we choose represent the country featured then what is the point of putting these together. I
I will write more later in rebuttal to this possibly.

To say that the Art of War or the Analects is not part of literary tradition really leaves me beyond words. I appreciate you expressing your opinion.
I could possibly go with the Book of Songs as an epic, which in part also is part of the core of Confucianism.

 

[freethink]

The main point is to complete this project anyway, and I am so happy to see people discussing this again!

 

[Steb]

To put it mildly, I disagree categorically. Put it this way, if it doesn't matter the epics we choose represent the country featured then what is the point of putting these together. I
I will write more later in rebuttal to this possibly.

To say that the Art of War or the Analects is not part of literary tradition really leaves me beyond words. I appreciate you expressing your opinion.
I could possibly go with the Book of Songs as an epic, which in part also is part of the core of Confucianism.

Perhaps I didn't make my point clear! I think our disagreement is on what exactly is a "literary work." It's a... fuzzy concept, to be sure. Certainly the Art of War and (I assume) the Analects have literary qualities and are part of the Chinese literary tradition. But I don't think they are works of literature in the sense of being written primarily as art, which seems to be what we're aiming for here as we're tying epics to Great Artists.

Additionally I don't think they are epics. Again, an epic is a fuzzy concept, but I think it does need some form of narrative content. Here's the Wikipedia definition of "epic poem" for reference:

An epic poem is a lengthy narrative poem, ordinarily involving a time beyond living memory in which occurred the extraordinary doings of the extraordinary men and women who, in dealings with the gods or other superhuman forces, gave shape to the mortal universe for their descendants, the poet and their audience, to understand themselves as a people or nation.[1]

It doesn't strictly have to be that, but to choose something completely different for China would, in my opinion, require that there are no actual epics to choose from in the Chinese literary tradition. Hegel's opinion aside, that sounds unlikely to me.

And to your point that the epics must "represent the country featured", why, of course! But the text that best represents a country is not necessarily the best choice for this project. As an (imperfect) analogy, consider the US. One could argue that the text that represents the US best is the American Constitution. Yet that would be a poor choice for a national epic because 1) it's not literature/art, 2) it's not an epic, 3) there are plenty of epics in US culture.

The Book of Songs / Classic of Poetry indeed seems (at least superficially, for a philistine like me) like a possibly better choice than the Analects. I don't know about the Heroic Epic, but I think a strong requirement is that it should be the story of a hero.

 

[freethink]

Perhaps I didn't make my point clear! I think our disagreement is on what exactly is a "literary work." It's a... fuzzy concept, to be sure. Certainly the Art of War and (I assume) the Analects have literary qualities and are part of the Chinese literary tradition. But I don't think they are works of literature in the sense of being written primarily as art, which seems to be what we're aiming for here as we're tying epics to Great Artists.

Additionally I don't think they are epics. Again, an epic is a fuzzy concept, but I think it does need some form of narrative content. Here's the Wikipedia definition of "epic poem" for reference:

It doesn't strictly have to be that, but to choose something completely different for China would, in my opinion, require that there are no actual epics to choose from in the Chinese literary tradition. Hegel's opinion aside, that sounds unlikely to me.

And to your point that the epics must "represent the country featured", why, of course! But the text that best represents a country is not necessarily the best choice for this project. As an (imperfect) analogy, consider the US. One could argue that the text that represents the US best is the American Constitution. Yet that would be a poor choice for a national epic because 1) it's not literature/art, 2) it's not an epic, 3) there are plenty of epics in US culture.

The Book of Songs / Classic of Poetry indeed seems (at least superficially, for a philistine like me) like a possibly better choice than the Analects. I don't know about the Heroic Epic, but I think a strong requirement is that it should be the story of a hero.

The Analects does actually have a narrative context, not quite like Homer but certainly not like the US Constitution. The Analects is a story in part about the travels of Confucius and his disciples, the people they come across.
I was under the impression that we should be flexible with the idea of 'epics' especially them being a western concept. I am a little hesitant to apply Hegel's definitions here as I do not believe he could not have had full familiarity with the evolution of Chinese literary identity. In looking at China;s core, I see the Analects, and Art of War present everywhere. (Interesting fact, the Art of War was actually a wonder in previous installations of Civ)

However there might be room for compromise, I would also want to see if @soul-breathing would have any opinion on the matter.

Could we agree, that we could use the Book of Songs (for national epic) and Zuo Zhuan (The Zuo Commentary) (for heroic).

 

[Publicola]

Definitely Tellenlied is perfect, Nibelungenlied is good as well. Do you think we can use Sigurd for Germany if we used Nibelungenlied for HRE or are the two too similar?

Not sure what 'Sigurd' is -- can you link it? (Siegfried is the third opera in Wagner's Ring cycle, and that character is sometimes called 'Sigurd'...?)

To be honest, Wagner's operas are a treasure trove of potential epics for Germanic people (both HRE and modern Germany) -- we could use either the medieval legend that inspired his opera, or the opera itself, depending on whether we are talking HRE or modern Germany.

- Parzifal (based on a medieval legend from the 1200s, same 'quest for Holy Grail' as Arthurian legend, but very much Germanified)
- Tristan und Isolde (likewise based on a medieval legend, though the opera was significantly more influential on Germanic culture)

You also have 'Mastersingers of Nuremburg' (one of Wagner's latest works, and significantly important for German culture), not to mention classics like 'Tannhauser' and 'The Flying Dutchman'. Any one of those could easily be a National or Heroic Epic for late-era Germany.

 

[Steb]

The Analects does actually have a narrative context, not quite like Homer but certainly not like the US Constitution. The Analects is a story in part about the travels of Confucius and his disciples, the people they come across.
I was under the impression that we should be flexible with the idea of 'epics' especially them being a western concept. I am a little hesitant to apply Hegel's definitions here as I do not believe he could not have had full familiarity with the evolution of Chinese literary identity. In looking at China;s core, I see the Analects, and Art of War present everywhere. (Interesting fact, the Art of War was actually a wonder in previous installations of Civ)

However there might be room for compromise, I would also want to see if @soul-breathing would have any opinion on the matter.

Could we agree, that we could use the Book of Songs (for national epic) and Zuo Zhuan (The Zuo Commentary) (for heroic).

Agreed with flexibility! I think my opinion stems from the fact that China definitely has epic works of literature in its national corpus, most notably the Four Classic Novels, and it feels wrong to ignore them somehow in favor of less literary works from an earlier period. Even though the latter are definitely more foundational to Chinese culture.

(Another imperfect analogy: the Quran is definitely the most important text in Arabic civilization, but again it wouldn't be a good choice as an epic. We can see the foundational texts of Confucianism as similar to some extent.)

Perhaps the best would be to do like other civs (e.g. France) and have the epics come from different eras? One classical text from Warring State / Han dynasty period and one of the later novels?

 

[DC123456789]

The Analects does actually have a narrative context, not quite like Homer but certainly not like the US Constitution. The Analects is a story in part about the travels of Confucius and his disciples, the people they come across.
I was under the impression that we should be flexible with the idea of 'epics' especially them being a western concept. I am a little hesitant to apply Hegel's definitions here as I do not believe he could not have had full familiarity with the evolution of Chinese literary identity. In looking at China;s core, I see the Analects, and Art of War present everywhere. (Interesting fact, the Art of War was actually a wonder in previous installations of Civ)

We've definitely been flexible with the concept of epics insofar as the usual strict definition says that they're long, have an epic scope, are usually poetry, and are about a great hero and/or the literal or metaphorical founding of the nation, instead focusing more on the core idea that it should be a literary work that is culturally important to the civ and in some way representative of the country or culture. I don't think anyone is saying that the Analects or the Art of War aren't highly emblematic of a nation; the problem is that they're really treatises, not art. As Steb said, it's all the more an odd choice when there's already a universally recognized list of the greatest pieces of Chinese literature.

 

[freethink]

Agreed with flexibility! I think my opinion stems from the fact that China definitely has epic works of literature in its national corpus, most notably the Four Classic Novels, and it feels wrong to ignore them somehow in favor of less literary works from an earlier period. Even though the latter are definitely more foundational to Chinese culture.

(Another imperfect analogy: the Quran is definitely the most important text in Arabic civilization, but again it wouldn't be a good choice as an epic. We can see the foundational texts of Confucianism as similar to some extent.)

Perhaps the best would be to do like other civs (e.g. France) and have the epics come from different eras? One classical text from Warring State / Han dynasty period and one of the later novels?

The French precedent might work here, we would then need to decide how we would splice the national/heroic category.

I wish we could put the Book of Songs in somewhere, Zuo Zhuan might be best

 

[freethink]

How about this as a national quote?

Duke Wen of Zhu divined by turtle shell to determine if he should move his capital to the city of Yi. The historian who conducted the divination replied, "The move will benefit the people but not their ruler." The ruler of Zhu said, "If it benefits the people, it benefits me. Heaven gave birth to the people and set up a ruler in order to benefit them. If the people enjoy the benefit, I am bound to share in it." Those around the ruler said, "If by taking warning from the divination you can prolong your destiny, why not do so?" The ruler replied, "My destiny lies in nourishing the people. Whether death comes to me early or late is merely a matter of time. If the people will benefit thereby, then nothing could be more auspicious than to move the capital." In the end he moved the capital to Yi. In the fifth month Duke Wen of Zhu died. The noble person remarks: He understood the meaning of destiny.

 

[Publicola]

I feel like a quote more directly related to the 'Mandate of Heaven' would be more characteristic of Chinese culture. Here is perhaps the original usage of the phrase, from 'Announcement of the Duke of Shao':

I do not presume to know and say, "The dynasty of Xia enjoyed the Mandate of Heaven for however many years", nor do I presume to know and say "It could not continue longer." The fact simply was, that, for want of the virtue of reverence, the Mandate in its favor prematurely fell to the ground. Likewise, I do not presume to know and say, "The dynasty of Yin enjoyed the Mandate of Heaven for however many years," nor do I presume to know and say, "It could not continue longer." The fact simply was, that, for want of the virtue of reverence, the Mandate in its favor fell prematurely to the ground. The king has now inherited the Mandate - the same Mandate, I consider, which belonged to those two dynasties. Let him seek to inherit the merits of those dynasties as well.

 

[freethink]

I feel like a quote more directly related to the 'Mandate of Heaven' would be more characteristic of Chinese culture. Here is perhaps the original usage of the phrase, from 'Announcement of the Duke of Shao':

I like the idea of the emperor keeping a mandate by looking after the people, hence my quote but yours does describe China's mandate of heaven splendidly. Lets grab this one for the national quote, and leave the heroic for a more modern novel. Case closed.