DLC vs. Modding

[Chalks]

Hey you're the one that advocates Steamworks so much, you already know that DLC within Steamworks alters the main game files. And of course there's the many other games that do this too.

BTW, you avoided citing where 2K confirmed they will treat mods infringing Civ5 DLC the same as expansions in Civ4.

I'm sure 2k have control over what their DLC is and is not. Also, Babylon is not DLC. I'm sure you know the difference between additional content with a particular version and DLC.

Btw, you avoided backing up any of your assertions about how DLC will work with comments from 2k confirming it. Or the existence of real DLC for that matter.

 

[Dale]

I'm sure 2k have control over what their DLC is and is not. Also, Babylon is not DLC. I'm sure you know the difference between additional content with a particular version and DLC.

Btw, you avoided backing up any of your assertions about how DLC will work with comments from 2k confirming it. Or the existence of real DLC for that matter.

The official Steamworks announcement details the "downloadable bonus content, Cradle of Civilization Map Pack: Mesopotamia". Let me guess, next you'll claim that 'downloadable bonus content' is not DLC.

I think that's confirmation enough don't you?

http://store.steampowered.com/news/3792/

BTW, you avoided citing where 2K confirmed they will treat mods infringing Civ5 DLC the same as expansions in Civ4. You made some assumption that you think 2K will control their DLC, which is a backpedal on what you originally claimed.

 

[Chalks]

BTW, you avoided citing where 2K confirmed they will treat mods infringing Civ5 DLC the same as expansions in Civ4. You made some assumption that you think 2K will control their DLC, which is a backpedal on what you originally claimed.

Nice cherry picking from my post of what to cite. If the fact that something is "downloadable" makes it DLC then Civilization 4 had loads of DLC distributed through fansites. And you refuse to cite any source that says that 2k will lose all control over the format of their DLC and undermine their own attempts at making Civ 5 mod friendly.

It's great, you refuse to back up anything you say but demand that I do.

The fact of the matter is that neither of us know how it is going to be but you think that only you have the right to make assumptions as if they are facts.

 

[deanej]

If the fact that something is "downloadable" makes it DLC then Civilization 4 had loads of DLC distributed through fansites.

Except that the only stuff on here from Firaxis is Battle For East Asia and World War I. It's hardly "loads of DLC distributed through the fansites" even if you count FFH, RFC, and RTW (no modmods).

 

[Dale]

Nice cherry picking from my post of what to cite. If the fact that something is "downloadable" makes it DLC then Civilization 4 had loads of DLC distributed through fansites.

There's a huge difference between official 2K DLC (as the map pack and Babylon [suspected] are) and fan created mods.

And you refuse to cite any source that says that 2k will lose all control over the format of their DLC and undermine their own attempts at making Civ 5 mod friendly.

I can't cite a source for that because I didn't say that.

 

[Tylerryan79]

Really... so you think that if no-one ever pirated games, that game companies would still invest millions of dollars in developing DRM software?

They do it because they want to protect their product. Yeah, its unfortunate that there isn't an obvious way to effectively reduce piracy without inconviencing legitimate users.

But there isn't.

The key word is alsmost. Drm originated to stop piracy back in the day. Now its only really their to prevent resale of games. Ever walk into a gamestop or similair store? Ud be hard pressed to find a used pc game, but u can get consoles because they are much harder to pirate without altering ur console. I believe the ps3 is the only thing that can not be pirated to date. Im sure they dont even want those resold either.

I watched a whole tv special on pirating and torrents ect, and the companies spokesman ect flat out stated that drm does nothing to stop it and games are on torrent sites within hours, steam games included. They go on to explain that resale is a big factor in loss of revenue, and limits to instal and the like are put in place for that affect. Ive sold many old games, and have never once found a place that would buy pc games.

 

[Gliese 581]

One of the top motivators for piracy as I see it is easy and quick access, to the extent that this is denied alot of people that would pirate a product will seek to obtain it in another fashion such as buying it. If you look at music then Spotify is certainly selling a decent amount of mp3s by having easy and good access to pop music.
This has always been the main obstacle for the entertainment media I think, they need to think less about preventing piracy and more about offering a superior service to their customers. I'm tempted to expand on this discussion but it's moving off-topic.

I think that in cases where DRM prevents immediate pirate distribution it can positively affect sales. For example Mass Effect and Assassin's Creed 2 both took a fairly long time before they were fully cracked, I'm sure lots of people went ahead and bought the games rather than wait for a pirated version which for all they knew could be weeks or months away (as they indeed were in the abovementioned cases).

 

[attackfighter]

wasn't mass effect 2 cracked a week before it's release? and isn't mass effect 2 basically the same as the first one in terms of DRM?

if mass effect 1 wasn't cracked immediately it was probably due to lack of interest (assuming the above assumptions are correct). it was released on console months before the PC version came out, after all :/

idk much about DRM, but I always hear about DRC heavy games like Spore being cracked quickly, so I'm guessing it does little more than inconveniance the customer and possibly confuse some crappy pirates

 

[Dale]

wasn't mass effect 2 cracked a week before it's release? and isn't mass effect 2 basically the same as the first one in terms of DRM?

if mass effect 1 wasn't cracked immediately it was probably due to lack of interest (assuming the above assumptions are correct). it was released on console months before the PC version came out, after all :/

idk much about DRM, but I always hear about DRC heavy games like Spore being cracked quickly, so I'm guessing it does little more than inconveniance the customer and possibly confuse some crappy pirates

What you find is that these cracked version do not have any ability to use online content. For instance with Spore, the cracked version only allowed you to play disconnected. Your universe didn't update with new creations, you couldn't install updates/DLC, and you couldn't have an online account for the forums, extra tools and creation uploading.

Some games the pirates developed their own servers to manage online content. However, how much do you trust these pirates? The cracked servers are generally not able to be updated as updates/XPs and stuff come out, so pretty useless after the first patch. I've heard on the grapevine that the pirate servers are usually really high ping and constant dropouts and connection problems, as most run garage servers on standard residential lines instead of pipes.

So yes whilst it's easy to crack these games, you lose all ability to use the game with any online component (except using a pirated server which could be pretty dodgy depending if you trust them or not).

 

[player1 fanatic]

wasn't mass effect 2 cracked a week before it's release? and isn't mass effect 2 basically the same as the first one in terms of DRM?

Not really. ME2 uses classic disk check for protection.

Only its DLC content needs online authentication (some is free, some is not), and such content is tied to single user name. So if someone sells their used copy, without "selling" their user name and password too, the buyer will have no access to any DLC content. But will still be able to buy one for 10$ (getting access to all free DLCs).

Very similar system uses Dragon Age.

 

[Ahriman]

So yes whilst it's easy to crack these games, you lose all ability to use the game with any online component (except using a pirated server which could be pretty dodgy depending if you trust them or not).

More importantly from the game company perspective, the existence of a cracked version doesn't necessarily mean it will be widely adopted by a large number of users.
Even if a DRM system is unable to completely prevent piracy, it has the ability to significantly reduce it, by placing a basic "hurdle" that most non-tech-savvy game purchasers won't surpass.

 

[Moff Jerjerrod]

I don't waste money on DLC. It's never really worth it IMO. The user community is so much more creative with their mods than anyone corporate is.

I only hope that CiV comes with an editor and the ability to mod the game easily. This feature is what has kept C3C on my hard drive all these years. I would like to say the same thing about CiV as well.

 

[Gliese 581]

wasn't mass effect 2 cracked a week before it's release? and isn't mass effect 2 basically the same as the first one in terms of DRM?

if mass effect 1 wasn't cracked immediately it was probably due to lack of interest (assuming the above assumptions are correct). it was released on console months before the PC version came out, after all :/

idk much about DRM, but I always hear about DRC heavy games like Spore being cracked quickly, so I'm guessing it does little more than inconveniance the customer and possibly confuse some crappy pirates

No iirc ME1 had a more sophisticated DRM than ME2 and it was a few weeks before it was fully cracked. There was even initially talk about having to periodically re-authenticate ME1 online which caused an outcry amongst gamers similar to what's happened with Ubisoft's decision to require constant internet connection for their recent games.
Bioware then decided to move back to more basic copy protection measures presumably partly in response to the critique. At the same time they added additional DLC and other online content (private forums etc) as incentives for people to buy their games.

 

[Sir Spanky]

You guys are funny. Nothing has been confirmed but yet you fight about it. DLC - Downloadable Content. Paid or free will be available... mostly as Expansion packs and the first Bonus Content for those of you who want the Babylon stuff, music, interviews, and making of movie. If they are using the DRM software as in other games, a file that is unmodified and is being used in a mod for use will do the following

1.) not allowed to start at all

2.)or will asked the person who wants to play to get a legit copy of the original files to play. aka, buying BtS for a modd made for BtS.

End of discussion.

 

[Ahriman]

End of discussion.

Not end of discussion. Other games don't easily expose all their game files to editing and copying, like Civ4 does and Civ5 will need to do if it lives up to its claims of moddability.

 

[Tylerryan79]

Most pirates ask that if you like the game, buy it. I doubt anyones does except honest people who use it as a demo. Sites are out there that are basicly civfanatics.com but for torrents. I myself have never downloaded a game i havent owned, i just get the nocd cracks, but there are 1000s of people out there doing it. Most people dont care about dlc enough if they are pirating the game, so its a non issue. If they left it like civ iv, then i dont see the dlc being a reason to buy the game, since all ud have to do is put it into ur folders. Thats another reason they must be going with steam.

You know they more i think of it, i dont blame them for steam at all. Im a believer.

 

[tom2050]

It's already been stated, DRM is not to stop piracy, it's to stave off resale. This is the reason for steam and downloadable game and content. If you download the game, you can't sell it on ebay. If someone buys the game at the store, and re-sells (but doesn't include log-on info), then the buyer needs to purchase a username/pw (or w/e steam requires) so they still make out with at least some money.

DLC is a huge money pile they want to take out of your pockets. DLC is often overpriced also for what you get. And there is no re-sale value to it at all since it is not a tangible product, so it's an incredible deal for them.

Would I resell Civ 5 if I buy it? Probably not, but I have resold other 'crappy' games.

 

[GhostWriter16]

So, how different does something have to be until it is user-created content?

Are we banning *any* maps of the Fertile Crescent region? What if someone takes their map and tweaks it slightly? What if they use the base map but add their own scneario on top?

Can they use the Leader images of the Bablyonian leader and reskin them or change them? How large does that change have to be? There's a minefield here.

This will definitely be a rough situation.

I think it will definitely cause a bit of trouble. Naturally its their game, and they can do what they want, but, as you said, its a minefield.

 

[bernie14]

this question may be premature, but will i still be able to upload my units and LHs to this site or will it have to be thru steam? if that's the case, this place will be like rome after the goths trashed the aqueduct....

 

[ShaqFu]

this question may be premature, but will i still be able to upload my units and LHs to this site or will it have to be thru steam? if that's the case, this place will be like rome after the goths trashed the aqueduct....

AFAIK you'll still be able to post mods to CFC/other fansites/RapidShare/your server/whatever freely, and install them as per normal.