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DMOC's Immortal Game #1 - Playing as Darius I

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by DMOC, Apr 15, 2008.

  1. InvisibleStalke

    InvisibleStalke Emperor

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    I would hit pottery ASAP - in fact I would have hit it before anything else, even bronze on that start. cottaged floodplains can grow my city and send me soaring ahead on research.

    I'd settle city 3 1 SW of where you have it. Fewer floodplains is better and no need to overlap the capital. Also you get sheep in your small cross so not so much urgency to expand. And I would settle it next and go for horse/gems as city 3 - otherwise Wang will probably claim it. I don't think you'll be challenged expanding to the NW.

    With 3 cities you could go for Wang with immortals. Its going to be expensive though - protective archers on hills are hard to take down. You have a lot of trees that are potential immortals though.
     
  2. DMOC

    DMOC Mathematician

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    Maybe I could have done that in this game, although I am cautious about whipping the capital that early. The early second worker would justify a whipped capital, though.

    Yeah, I don't think I will be settling city 3 anytime soon.

    I did read a 500k immortal difficulty thread but that concerned Julius Caesar and praetorians, or is there another thread like that concerning Darius I? I will go check.

    I agree with city 3 and will likely divide the floodplains.

    But is founding two more cities before a rush a good idea? Sounds risky but I will consider it (remember I don't have much experience on Immortal and I have read your Hammurabi game which you founded only one other city before rushing).

    I am not inclined to settle the copper/spices city since a lot of the city is jungle and takes a while to grow. Also, it would make Elizabeth more likely to declare war on me, and I'd like to buddy up with her until rifles and cannons.

    I do agree with you on the research path. Maybe I'll even skip mysticism until after pottery since pottery early is nice.


    Floodplains cottages would be nice. I guess I just get in a habit of researching Bronze Working quickly.

    ----

    So I guess the general consensus is to settle city 1, followed by city 2 on my previous map (while ignoring city 3 floodplains at the moment) then building up immortals. How much is good enough? If Wang's got 3 archers in Pyongyang then I might need something like 8 immortals, I would guess. After capturing Pyongyang I could head to the capital with, say, 10 immortals?

    Speaking of Pyongyang, I am thinking of keeping it. 4 floodplains + corn = an early GP Farm, especially considering that my capital and city 1 will be cottaging. City 2 will likely be an early Heroic Epic city since it has the food and some jungled hills. The capital, Seoul, if I manage to take it, I will keep. That will net me a total of 5 quick cities, and I will likely just raze any other Korean city. I have read several immortal games and it seems that if anyone expands to 6 cities that early, their economy crashes.

    And my technology path would probably be The Wheel - Pottery - Mysticism (monuments are not needed for my first city and my second city by site 2 will be founded when Mysticism has been researched).

    I will play the round and post the update tomorrow, to allow for some more people to comment.
     
  3. oyzar

    oyzar Have quit civ/forums

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    If you read the whole thread there is quite alot about darius including a few posts about 1M+ score games with darius. The thread is pretty good too, not just the article.
     
  4. BurN

    BurN Prince

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    Hmm dmoc, I played the start for a bunch of turns to see the land better since it's hard to judge on screenshots. Imho from your current position:

    Research: Wheel->pottery->IW->myst->writing->(maths->constr?)

    I'd settle the horse+gems city and start building immortals. IW pretty high priority for the gems and settling in the jungle before liz. You can usually get IW by trades but if Liz doesn't go alphabet, you will be wasting a lot of commerce.

    Imho you need to rush asap, if Wang gets bronze/iron things will get rough. If I were to play this start, I'd probably dow early, go straight to his capital and raze. From there on just pillage everything and lock him in his cities till you get cats. Right out capturing cities will be hard against prot .. hill CGII/drill archers will be painful, even for immortals.

    If you were to play this strategy, don't forget to build settlers in between immortals to expand somewhere north (or north/east.) Around the pigs/corn should make a good gp farm but scout a bit more.

    You probably want to give liz some land to expand so she won't be totally backwards and you can trade with her till you meet other AI's.

    ps: 2S of the pigs is not a bad city either imho (though low priority). But it would grab the horses so you might want to move that corn+horses city more up. Or move it west to work all the grassland you can't really work otherwise. More scouting needed before you can make a good dotmap.
     
  5. DMOC

    DMOC Mathematician

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    Why would you want to raze the capital, though? It's close enough so it doesn't cost wonders in maintenance (and Darius I is Organized). It's also a holy city.
     
  6. BurN

    BurN Prince

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    I'm just saying you shouldn't underestimate protective archers, you're going to take a lot of losses probably. So it might be better to just hit him in the heart and cripple him till you can win easily. If you play it smart and let him rebuild improvements after pillaging, you can keep your immortals in his land for close to no upkeep. Also you'll get tons of workers.

    I don't think the holy city will do much for you unless Wang actually builds a shrine before you capture it. If you are worried about a good WS city, capture liz's holy city later in the game. By then it will have a shrine and since you will be sharing religion, you'll get a lot more profit from it.

    It's up to you of course. If you can capture his capital, defend it and pay the maint cost it's even better of course. Just be sure to scout his bronze/horse/iron and pillage it before it's too late eh. ;)
     
  7. oyzar

    oyzar Have quit civ/forums

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    Settle second city to claim the horses of course then you don't need to settle any more cities and just take cities from AI's when you need more. Pillage and harass all the AI's on the map and deny them metal. Though it might be a little late since you delayed AH so much... @ Burn: you do realize immortals get +50% against archers right?
     
  8. BurN

    BurN Prince

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    Yes I do but if you're up against CGII/drill archers on a hill .. you're going to take a lot of losses nonetheless. Well he can try going for all out destroying Wang right away but I think that's going to be tough. It will depend how many hill cities he has and if he has copper/iron.

    I dno if he should've gotten AH earlier. You can't get out 2x worker + 1x settler before you teched mining/bw. I think the tech path was ok, he went mining->bw->ah right? I don't see how that is a bad tech path. If you go AH first .. you lose turns you can't chop, hence that settler isn't going to be at the horses any faster. :mischief:
     
  9. DMOC

    DMOC Mathematician

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    Yes, Mining - BW - AH. I did this because, like you said, I wanted to go worker first and AH would have meant my worker was idle. Well, he could have built floodplain farms but I'll be cottaging over them soon.

    I aim to have the capital reach size 4, (building a warrior) then a quick chopped settler then barracks + immortals all the way.

    I don't know if I'll be able to wipe out Wang completely. If he's got 5 cities or more, I'll just take the capital and maybe 1 other and call for peace. It'd be better if he stayed alive, but crippled, so I can trade with Elizabeth.
     
  10. pigswill

    pigswill fly (one day)

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    If you're capturing and razing Wang's cities and losing immortals in the process one of the potential problems is that Liz will probably be settler spamming while you're wrapped up in warfare and she could end up with a lot more cities than you, potentially a tech lead and a higher power rating.
     
  11. DMOC

    DMOC Mathematician

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    I've played the next round. It's quite long and really interesting.

    I'll give you a preview: I got a Great General before 1000 BC. :)
     
  12. DMOC

    DMOC Mathematician

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    Round 2: 2875 BC to 1075 BC (73 Turns)


    This round was quite long and focused mainly on the war against Wang Kon.

    At the start of the round, I figured out that Wang Kon already has horses hooked up.



    You can use this simple technique to find out how militarily advanced your foes are, especially early on in the game. I was actually hoping that he would have some copper resource so he would produce more axemen, which my Immortals slaughter. But then again he could build spears...I guess horses weren't so bad anyway.

    Anyway, for this round, I began researching The Wheel. This was an easy choice to make -- I didn't need Archery nor Iron Working so soon due to the nearby horses, and Mysticism wasn't needed at the moment since I did not plan on founding any more cities -- and I didn't -- this round. My horse city would not need a monument because horses would be in its first ring, but it would need roads to connect them. Not only that, but The Wheel enables the Immortal unit.

    My capital, Persepolis, finished up its worker and built a warrior while timing it so the capital would grow to size 4 and complete its warrior at the same time. My two workers didn't have much to do, so I sent one to chop the spices resource and the other to chop the forest over the second hill.

    As you can see in the following screenshot, my worker had 1 turn left to chop that hill, while the capital wasn't quite at size 4 yet. This would result in a warrior being made but the capital still at size 3, which I didn't want. The solution was to select "mine the hill" as the worker action. This is like prechopping, only I was pre-mining, which did not chop the forest yet. Once the capital was one turn away from size 1, I canceled the mine order and decided to chop, since the capital would already be at size 4 the next turn and overflow from the warrior would go into a settler.



    Soon, I finished researching The Wheel.



    Up next -- Pottery! Time to take advantage of the Financial trait.

    Meanwhile, other civs were not being slouches. One civ built Stonehenge in 2550 BC. After reading Obsolete's wonderspam games, this seems like a really early date for Stonehenge, and I'm guessing an industrious civ built it. It wasn't built by Wang or Elizabeth. Hopefully no one like Huayna Capac or Louis XIV is on the other continent, which would really be troublesome. Those two are probably the best AI industrious civs.

    My first settler was soon built with the aid of forest chops and was sent to the horse site. Good thing I had already planted down roads and was even roading the horse at this point. The faster the horses are hooked up, the better.



    I also switched to Slavery this turn, but the second city (Pasargade) wasn't founded until the next turn, which meant its builds weren't affected by the turn of anarchy. The build order in that city would be a Barracks followed by Immortal after Immortal. A monument was built late this round, though the borders of the city had yet to expand by turn 117.

    Potter was soon researched, and I went on to Writing. I was considering BurN's suggestion of researching Iron Working quicker, but I figured that Writing needed to come first so I could scout out Wang's cities. No point attacking if he has 8 protective archers in each city. That HAS happened to me once with Charlemagne in another Immortal game. Painful, indeed. :blush: And I was even playing as Rome!

    Horses were finally connected in 2300 BC, and after both cities finished their Barracks builds, they went on to pump out Immortals nonstop throughout the rest of the round. I think I managed to produce nearly 20 immortals, though I didn't end up with that many at the end of the round because of casualties in war.

    Writing was researched, and I then selected Mysticism as my next technology, followed by Iron Working.

    My scout wasn't slacking off either. He scouted out all of Wang's territory, which now constituted a total of 3 cities.



    Nice! A non-hill capital with only two archers in it. 8 Immortals should defintely be enough, and it's unlikely Wang can grow this city much due to the AI's weakness in growing capitals that are infested with forests.

    Speaking of forests, I chopped the vast majority of forests around both cities in order to get those Immortals out sooner. I also used the whip:



    I am wary about whipping the capital, but nonetheless, I whipped the capital 2 or 3 times this round.

    Sometime later in the round, when I was still building up my army, Stonehenge was built in 1975 BC on the other continent. Also, Judaism was founded on the other continent as well, their first religion. I know this since Elizabeth was researching Monotheism after Judaism was founded (I could see her research because I put all espionage points on her -- no point investing any points into Wang).

    And lest I forget -- barbarians were starting to be troublesome this round. Thankfully, immortals are THE BEST barbarian counters, apart from War Chariots. The immortals, with their two movement points, completely eliminated the barbarian threat with ease. I even sent a few immortals out for free experience before the war.



    While I was building up immortals, Wang quickly expanded to five cities. Troublesome, yes, but the poor fool expanded to the tundra and snow! Those cities will do him little good. :crazyeye: Elizabeth, by the way, only had two cities even when I was ready to declare on Wang. She must have some expansionistphobia or whatever you'd like to call it.

    Or maybe she didn't have a fear for expanding. In 1600 BC, the Oracle was built -- by none other than Elizabeth! And on this same date, Christianity was founded! Guess who?



    What's more, as you can see in the next screenshot, Elizabeth was finishing up Code of Laws and founded Confucianism. There's currently only one other religion on the other continent, and I'm worried that Elizabeth will be hogging them all.

    Soon, I finished researching Iron Working.



    I do have several sources of Iron close to me, although none in my cultural borders. I promptly set a worker to mine the much-needed gems.

    I decided to research Mathematics next, but after a few turns invested in it, I changed my mind and decided to go with Polytheism instead. I really need to go up the Priesthood -> Code of Laws path. Don't worry, though, I will invest a turn in Mathematics every ten turns so beakers don't decay.

    On that same date I researched Iron Working (1400 BC), it was time.



    [To be continued in next post]
     
  13. DMOC

    DMOC Mathematician

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    [Round 2-Continued from previous post]



    So, I declared war with 10 chariots and headed straight for the capital. I would then turn back to Pyongyang along with reinforcements from the capital.

    Here is what the situation looked like when I arrived with my 10 immortals.



    So Wang whipped his capital to size 1 and used the whip on a chariot. Silly mistake. My 10 immortals should be enough to take the city.

    Now, this is where promotions become vital. I kept my chariots unpromoted along the way, the exception being a combat 1 immortal who got help from the barbarians. I checked the odds for a combat 1 immortal.



    Er...not go good. I decided to promote my initial chariots to flanking 1 in the hopes that they could withdraw while dealing some damage to the archers.

    I used one immortal which already had 5 XP and promoted him to Flanking 2 and attacked. He died, as expected, but failed to deal any damage. This made me worried, but I continued on attacking. My next 3 immortals that attacked were all Flanking 1, and 2 died while 1 survived. I then used a C2 (Combat 2) immortal to attack a chariot at 67% odds -- and he won! the next immortal also attacked a chariot (68% odds) and won as well. This meant that I had 4 immortals left and the Korean archers were considerably injured.



    Needless to say, my next two immortals easily defeated their foes and I captured Seoul on the third turn of the war. Mission partly accomplished. :goodjob: (By the way, I won't show that many screenshots of actually capturing the city -- it's better for screenshots to be taken before the city attack begin so the viewer sees the attackers and the defenders clearly).

    I moved the immortals to the city next turn and let them recuperate a bit. I also found time a few turns later to raze a Korean city with 6 healthy immortals, and I did so with no losses.



    At this point, I was shocked as a hwacha suddenly came and attacked my stack of immortals, causing them to need extra turns to recovery. Apparently, Wang has construction. This meant that it was a full 10 turns before I could safely attack Pyongyang, defended by two archers and a hwacha.



    I had 10 immortals within striking range, though 3 or 4 were injured. I used the same strategy of attacking first with flanking, then with combat promoted immortals. The result?



    I kept the city, which is likely a future great person farm. I needed 8 immortals to capture the city and I lost four of them in the process. That fight also led to my first great general, which I will likely use as a military instructor in my future Heroic Epic city.



    This is where I stopped. Wang is down to 2 cities now and I have 4, while Elizabeth has 3. Yay, I'm winning! :D (well at least in terms of number of cities :lol:) But I'm a bit worried about my economy. Elizabeth apparently has Theology, Code of Laws, and is about to learn Monarchy already while I'm still researching Polytheism. I'm aiming for a CoL beeline then going back to Mathematics. From then on, I'm not really sure.

    Also, I'm thinking of making peace with Wang at the moment. My forces are injured and scattered and I'd like a break at this point.

    Military advisor:



    Map of the known world:



    Some nice land to the southwest of my capital, but I want to settle near the jungle first to stop Elizabeth's expansion, or at the very least, slow it.



    As you can see from the "cities" column, Elizabeth has settled only two other cities, so she has three now. Isn't that kind of slow for an Immortal AI? She hasn't expanded beyond her peninsula and I want to make her pay for that.

    Also, I don't have open borders yet. Should I do so? If I have open borders, she can use the trade routes from "Sailing" to her benefit while I can't, right?

    The current capital:



    I'm going to cancel the immortal and build 2 more workers, then a settler and a library.

    Now, here is where I have a question. In the beginning of the game, Wang Kon had -3 toward Elizabeth for not having the same religion. Well, by the end of the round, he has a -2 toward her for that same reason. They never switched out of their religions nor converted to a different one. What's the cause of this? I thought the heathen religion demerit was supposed to increase over time, not decrease. Also, Elizabeth is pleased with Wang now, despite having an overall diplomatic stance of -1. I'm guessing the base peaceweights have to do with that and with the fact that Wang is on the bottom of the scoreboard, which affects how AI's feel about you (extra invisible plusses for you if you are lower on the scoreboard).

    Well, if anyone can answer that, it would be greatly appreciated.

    With my next settler, I'm thinking of settling that copper + spices city (the location of copper can more easily be seen with the map in round 1), then with another settler, settle site 2 on my dotmap shown in round 1 which will be my herioc epic city.

    Or is there a better use for the great general? Seoul actually has good production and a lot of forested hills so I could use the city as an alternative for Heroic Epic.

    There ends round 2. Hope to get some great advice. :goodjob:
     

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  14. oyzar

    oyzar Have quit civ/forums

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    harass elizabeth with immortals before she can get metal hooked up(maybe too late by now though...) then get her techs through extortion when either of you hit alphabet(she tends to research it quite early i have found). Then take cities when you need it. As darius it should not be very hard to recover your economy from pretty much anything so taking out wang migth be good...
     
  15. DMOC

    DMOC Mathematician

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    Good idea... but I saw an English swordsman poking out at around 1500 BC so I guess I'll be holding off on attacking Elizabeth. I'll probably renew a war with Wang soon, but maybe leave him with 1 city left until Elizabeth hits Feudalism, then I destroy Wang so he can't vassal. I just want to keep tech trading with Elizabeth and also take advantage of her failure to expand.
     
  16. BurN

    BurN Prince

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    Good round. :goodjob:
     
  17. ese-aSH

    ese-aSH Prince

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    good round DMOC :).

    I'm very curious on how you will handle the next round : grab land north to prevent English over-expansion and avoid eco crash.

    my opinion : I would not go at war with lizzy, but rather make her the tech partner, looks like you 2 financials ones are alone on your island by now, and you surely dont want to fall far behind the other continent.
     
  18. DMOC

    DMOC Mathematician

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    I am planning on making Elizabeth a tech partner but only momentarily, since I would eventually like to solidify the continent under my control. But in order to keep trading with Elizabeth, I would need to keep Wang alive.

    Does anyone else have any more advice?
     
  19. Belisar

    Belisar Defender of Byzanz

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    You have a twofold problem, settling your continent while not crushing your eco and the tech pace of the other continent (which will be fast if they share one religion), a known situation on high level continent game.

    Your idea of keeping Wang around to be able to trade with Lizzy is good in theory.
    However, I think you must raze both visible Korean cities as soon as he founds another junk town to get some breathing space for the conquered cities.
    In the meantime, establish your boarders towards the English and claim the land you want mid-game (those corn/iron/spice site looks good)
    You want good relations with her in the next stage of the game, before your eco can handle taking over the continent.
    Whenever you are (practically) alone with a good techer, stealing techs should be considered also.

    Farms and (gems)mines for Pasar. are your top worker priority, and of course a bureauc.-capital with lots of cottages.
    (Don't forget an early lib with 2 scientists for the academy)
     
  20. ese-aSH

    ese-aSH Prince

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    stealing tech is cool, but every commerce that goes into EP does not go into beaker, and slow down the continent tech pace.

    with religion & a few bribes you could get elizabeth enthousiast and exchange all tech with her, be carefull to never reseach the same tech as she do. I would not slow the continent (by steraling / warring) before you met the other AIs.
     

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