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DMOC's Immortal Game #2 - Boudica

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by DMOC, Jun 20, 2008.

  1. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    I've run through the game a few times, and each time I either bot boxed in so badly or rushed/damaged beyond repair that a report would be ugly and the information isn't even a spoiler.

    In other words, I got my !#$% kicked :(.
     
  2. DMOC

    DMOC Mathematician

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    Uh-oh...hopefully I can do well...

    Do you think this is a hard Immortal game?
     
  3. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    No...I'm pretty sure good players wouldn't have trouble with it. I just can't haven't gotten early expansion timing on immortal down yet. I'm not used to getting attacked when I have that much of and army either.
     
  4. DMOC

    DMOC Mathematician

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    Okay, I will play the next round tonight. If anyone has any last-minute advice to offer to me, please do it now. I will be following the Archery tech path first thing next round.
     
  5. DMOC

    DMOC Mathematician

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    Round 2: 2800 BC to 1850 BC (39 Turns)


    I began the round by researching Archery. I could have found a city near the horses:



    But the thing is, I absolutely hate all-plain cities, even if it's got some food resources since the city will have a hard time growing past size 4-5. Since Boudica's charismatic, why not try and grow our cities as much as possible? So archery it was. The barbarians were not much of a threat this round -- maybe they will be next round.

    I also saw a bug that I had noticed occur again. Look at the foreign diplomacy screen:



    Darius I is the worst enemy of...me. :confused:

    That's not all. When I hovered over Mao's face, it said that he was the worst enemy of Sitting Bull, which we have never met so why should it be displayed? Great, now we've got another protective leader in this game.

    (Note that the spoiler info only happens if you access the foreign advisor--simply clicking on Mao's name ingame and hovering over him won't reveal the spoiler info.)

    I waited for the capital to grow to size 4 (investing a turn into Stonehenge in the process) and then I built a settler. It would have taken 15 turns, but a chop reduced that.



    For those of you who are extreme micro-managers, I switched a citizen from the plains mine to the ivory -- they both provide 4 total food/prod to the settler but the ivory gives an extra commerce. :p

    I finished Archery, went for Wheel instead of Agriculture first. I needed to hook up the pigs and connect my two cities for trade route income.



    Not much happened between the previous screenshot and the next other than the fact that I finished The Wheel, and was now researching Agriculture.



    The settler was completed soon after, and I started on an archer due in 4 turns. Oh yeah, also revolt to slavery. We might need it sometime.

    I founded Vienne.



    The build order in that city was Monument (via whip) > Worker

    As you can see in that screenshot, there was a barbarian warrior. The next turn, though, he left. Funny, I would have thought the warrior would have attempted to attack the city...maybe there's a strict timeline before barbs enter your cities on immortal?

    On another note, Pacal built Stonehenge in 2350 BC. We get nine gold just for attempting to build it for one turn. :goodjob:

    After Agriculture, went for Pottery. The archer was done at around the same time, an I started a second settler in the capital (my second city would be producing a worker later to compensate for the lack of a second worker from a capital).

    Pottery was done before the second settler was complete and I then researched Writing.



    I completed the settler via whip.



    As well as a monument from Vienna.



    Mao, by the way, has at least three cities by this point and another settler.

    In 2125 BC, I FINALLY meet another AI -- Saladin (Protective/Spiritual). What's with this game? I want to play a warmonger's game and I get 3 (maybe more!) protective leaders?!? The good news, though, is that he's bound to be far from me (I met his scout south of Mao) and he's also the founder of Judaism and he and Pacal have -4 towards each other. Both are still cautious, though.

    Another wonder was completed in 2075 BC-Darius I completed the Great Wall. Well, that's not good news. All the barbs in the north will be going for me now. By the way, I can now trade resources with Darius I. How come? Neither of us have Writing and I don't have any coastal cities nor the Sailing tech.

    City 3 was founded.



    That's three cities before 2000 BC. Began a monument there and will of course be completed via whip.

    And Darius built his second city here (he only has two cities at this point).



    :crazyeye:

    Writing was soon done, and I decided to end the round here.

    [To be continued in next post]
     
  6. DMOC

    DMOC Mathematician

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    [Continued from previous post]


    Tech choices:



    I will probably go for Alphabet next.

    Map of the north followed by south:




    Darius I hasn't expanded into the horse region, so cities there are still an option (despite the fact that I would rather found them elsewhere).



    I could also found a short-term, low maintenance production city here:



    OR I could found city 3 on my dotmap in round 1 and use that as a temp. great person farm.

    City plans:

    Capital--cottage floodplains, mine hills
    Vienne-cottage (should I farm it? It would be a pretty good great person farm)
    Tolso-cottage

    The only thing I'm concerned now is a production site and a great person farm site. I'm torn on whether I should use one of my floodplains city for a GP farm or use a new city (by the southern fish?) for that purpose.



    This ends round 2. The way I see it, I've got 2 choices.


    1. Attack Mao

    2. Play peaceful until Renaissance


    I was originally thinking about going for plan 1, but plan 2 could be viable since I have quite some more room for expansion, I've already got some nice land, and my attack target is protective with a lot of plains cities (Mao's second city nearest to me is almost all plains with just a wheat resource to compensate for this). Pacal and Mao are also pleased with each other so I risk angering the Mayan.

    So what do you think? If I play peaceful, I could expand and get some horsies. If I attack Mao, I'll likely build no more cities or maybe one more city with good production and attack the Chinese with catapults/war elephants/axes/gallic warriors.

    Regardless of whether I attack or play peaceful, I think the tech plan should be to go for Alphabet. I can research Alphabet (although first I will spend a few turn at 0% research to gain some gold) and try to obtain Iron Working, Mathematics, and maybe a few other quality techs in the process. If I'm planning on warring early, then after Alphabet, I'll want to trade for Mathematics (with people like Darius and Pacal in this game they should tech to Math relatively fast) and research construction, where I can take advantage of my ivory to build war elephants. Afterwards, I'll be heading for Currency/Code of Laws, and from then on, it depends on what the game brings me.

    So...attack or stay peaceful? I need your advice...:goodjob:
     

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  7. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    Haha I want to say things so bad but I don't want to spoil it for you.

    I'm definitely going to replay this. I need work on my immortal play badly.
     
  8. DMOC

    DMOC Mathematician

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    I hope this means there are some surprises in this game? :lol: Awesome...

    but do you think I should stay at peace or war?


    And by the way, feel free to post your shadow game here...just make sure that if you post anything it doesn't go beyond 1850 bc, that it doesn't give away locations of resources like iron, etc etc... It's nice to compare.
     
  9. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    My self requirements for posting a shadow game are:

    1. I always put them in spoilers and say what year they go to. That way, if anyone feels the info could spoil, they can promptly ignore it. I don't have to worry as much that way, and no risk of spoilage.

    2. The shadow game would ideally be useful to people reading it, or at least interesting. Granted, some people might find my blunders resulting in death or pain interesting, but I can make my OWN games for that type of thing ;).

    I tried war and failed. But I kind of knew it would because I did it wrong. That's all I can say without spoiling it.

    OH OH! But I can tell you that you have a strategic resource! IVORY and it's just west of the capitol:crazyeye:!
     
  10. PaulusIII

    PaulusIII Unholy Warlord

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    I'd say that attacking Mao looks good. With elephants and catapults you should be able to take a good chunk out of him, protective or not. If need be (that is, if you are sure Mao has copper or iron) building barracks/stables might be a good idea as well so you can give out shock promotions to deal with spears.

    Citywise, you'll need more production if you want to war. Building another production city, even with maintenance counted in, would be well worth it. Best for that city would possibly be to build barracks and then start cranking out catapults, while Bibracte would take care of the elephants and a few garrison troops/stack defenders.

    ... but then again, I'm not even near Immortal level. I'm just starting to get the hang of Emperor. So this advice might not be that useful. ;)
     
  11. DMOC

    DMOC Mathematician

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    Where would you suggest a fourth (production) city? I am playing along with the thought of having a fourth city before attacking. Not 100% sure, though.
     
  12. royal62184

    royal62184 Prince

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    What do you think about this city? Several farms you could throw down initially + corn and more with CS. Not to mention the 5 hills. Not too far for maintenance, may be a little high.

     

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  13. DMOC

    DMOC Mathematician

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    That is not a bad city. I don't think there's enough coastal tiles to justify a Moai Statues but it would still be useful as a production city. If I found that city, then I will need to found the horse city 1east of the horse instead of 1w-2n of it. Actually, it's more likely that I will found the horse city first (closer to Darius, helps me block his expansion, and then I can backfill that city you displayed as a fifth or sixth city.
     
  14. Yeekim

    Yeekim Moderator Moderator

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    The city proposed by royal62184 would be even better 1E.
    Extra hammer from building on plains hill is not to be scorned... And if you want it to be a production powerhouse, screw those ocean tiles!
    You'd need to abandon your cow city,,, but that location sucks terribly anyway.
     
  15. JBossch

    JBossch King

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    Interesting game so far and nice job dividing up the flood plains. Cottaging both those cities is probably the best idea and will soon support 2 prod cities in the north.

    As for settling, I would say, 1) 1NE of the horses. It trades sheep for cow (1C for 1H, IIRC) but that is fine for a prod city. 2) 1E of royal's spot (where Yeekim suggested), if only because it gets another riverside grassland for farming.
    The other prod city is good but it can wait, same with the fish city.
    As for a GP farm, I'm not really sure. I suggest scouting the coast near the barb city before you decide. If there is a fish near Magyar it might be a good spot.
    Also, make sure Mao doesn't grab the dyes spot, it will be great after calendar (as long as you have enough workers).

    About war vs. peace, I suppose with as much land as you still have maybe (*sigh*) peace is best for now, planning on a curaissier war against Mao. Also, though it seems like you have some slow settling by the AIs, I'll bet they are just heading east more aggressively, probably better land there. If you do decide on war I wouldn't found more than the 2 prod cities before gearing up. Perhaps some more scouting will reveal the best course of action.

    Good luck!
     
  16. DMOC

    DMOC Mathematician

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    Another advantage of moving 1e is that it will get an extra grassland like jbossch mentioned. I am leaning towards founding the city in that location after founding a city near the horses beforehand.


    Unfortunately, it looks like Boudica's warmongering will need to wait a while. I've got plenty of land and am not boxed in, with a protective neighbor nearby, so yeah, peace does look best for now. Your plan for founding cities is pretty good, so I will follow that (most likely, unless iron changes anything).

    For a GP farm, I am thinking of a city 2E of the fish below Bibracte (city 3 that I proposed in my dotmap in the first round) which will take the wheat away from Vienne when Vienne is at its happy cap and working enough cottages. That barbarian city is just too far south to be of any use to me.

    Oh yeah, and this also gives me 6 cities. Nice! Though I'll probably get a seventh or eighth if possible.
     
  17. ungy

    ungy Deity

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    I took a look at your game and have a few comments:

    Generally the area around the capital is outstanding mid-term but actually not so hot short term. You only have one big food tile and you face the normal gold issue--working the gold crimps your growth. But having the gold allows you to reach further and claim several sites without worrying about crashing the economy.

    1. Why did you research mining first? Since you can't work the gold for a while AH is much better.

    2. I would have settled up by the horse for city 3--I think it's unlikely Mao would have claimed your site as he has the southern horse/silk area still to claim. While there is a long term problem with a plains city like that--short terrm you need the horse and the production. If you make it to the long term you will have won easily.

    3. Too early for a gran in capital--you need more workers/settlers/defenders.

    4. I would have researched IW very early here. Probably I trade for it 90% of the time but I just think this is one of the minority. You have great land, powerful traits but if you don't get metal you could have an early accident.
    You needed to know where the iron was by now--do you need to rush to claim it or is it secure? I didn't look that closely so not sure when I would have put it in but definately before pottery/writing. Nothing wrong with farming a few FP to let the capital grow a bit or add to settler/worker prod.
    I'm a cottage addict but remember you have gold and are short food/prod so I think too early for cottages.

    Anyway good luck with the game!
     
  18. DMOC

    DMOC Mathematician

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    1. I researched mining before AH because if I went AH and worker first, the worker would have been idle for a few turns after pasturing the pigs and waiting for the mining tech to be complete (I think--my calculations might be a bit off).

    2. I will be aiming for that horse city next round ASAP (well after I let my capital grow a bit).

    3. I agree that it is a bit too early--I inserted it in the build queue and IIRC there are no hammers invested into it. I am planning on working mostly floodplains in the capital while it grows to maybe size 5 and do another round of worker/settler.

    4. IW...I don't know...we have archers and water is surrounding my land in the west and part of the north and south so there doesn't seem to be a need for metal this quick. My neighbors also aren't the most aggressive type.

    Thank you for your advice! :)
     
  19. futurehermit

    futurehermit Deity

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    I wonder if Boudica's lack of economic bonuses would be a strike against playing peacefully until the renaissance? In contrast, if you are able to engage in steady warfare during the earlier time periods you will be able to eventually have an incredibly strong army of aggressive/charismatic units.
     
  20. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    I'm trying to get better but immortal seems so uphill :rolleyes:. Anyway I gave this another shot. I've at least improved a little, as I have something worth putting here now.

    I've played up until 520 AD, and would appreciate pointers as I'm not sure if my position is even winnable, I don't have enough immortal experience to tell:

    Spoiler :
    To start off with, I settled 1 W. After moving the scout to see ivory it seemed ok to split the flood plains. Opening techs were AG and Mining.- flood plains then gold. I wanted to do the opposite of DMOC - early rush!

    As anyone who's payed attention to the above can see, there's no bronze. Now, in the immortal Pacal game ABigCivFan (Who from my understanding is a consistent deity player normally? Sick) settled some commerce niceness and teched ironworking for his early attack. Indeed, here I have gold in the BFC and plenty of whipping food, so what they hey?

    I managed to pop wheel from a hut, allowing me to go clean at IW after agriculture. I settled my first city to grab some more flood plains and wheat to the east of the capitol. By the time I had my 2nd settler whipped out i'd teched IW and saw some NW of the capitol, so I settled between the iron and livestock for food/production/iron access. Not much else to say here. I did lots of 2 pop whips and as Mao expanded into me I decided I was going to expand through the unfortunately protective Chinese.

    I started this war around 700 BC ish. It's 520 AD and it's still ongoing. Unfortunately this map is not good for a sword rush since China settled pretty much every city it could on hills. Still, with CR II and especially III swords and their equivalents can get over 50% odds, it just isn't ideal.

    I took a lot of Mao's cities. I've recently finished up CoL and am whipping more units/courthouses. I'm trying to tech construction but the immortal AI is just techs so fast.

    Pacal declared on me because mao decided to be his voluntary vassal. So far I've seen very little from Pacal, but this makes the war more complicated. For one, I can't fleece techs off Mao and redeclare later now that he capitulated. I'd love to fight pacal but I'm not sure how long I'd be able to before I had maces and crossbows breathing down my neck - Mao is very behind because I'd been stomping him.

    Here's some basic screen shots of my 520 AD situation:

    Northern Empire


    Southern Empire


    Tech Screen :(


    I have some WW, some "brothers and sisters of faith anger", and of course some whip anger :). I can fight a little longer, but not sure if that's optimal. Hell, at this level I'm not sure if I'm screwed already and it doesn't matter.

    On the bright side, Mao had built the mids so those are mine now.


    View attachment 181289
     

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