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DMOC's Immortal Game #2 - Boudica

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by DMOC, Jun 20, 2008.

  1. DMOC

    DMOC Mathematician

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    Rifling is more expensive than Nationalism by about 1000 beakers (epic speed), but this may be off.

    Oh yes, forgot about that great scientist. :D I think I will use him to bulb Printing Press (after picking Nationalism as free tech I will begin to tech towards Economics which gives my GS enough time to appear to bulb Printing Press).
     
  2. DMOC

    DMOC Mathematician

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    I've finished the next round, which ended on the brink of war with Mao (NOT Darius as you will find out things went differently than expected). Will post it in the morning.
     
  3. DMOC

    DMOC Mathematician

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    Round 7: 990 AD to 1455 AD (67 Turns), Part I


    To start off the round, I first chose Nationalism as my free technology from Liberalism.



    There wasn't a better alternative and I didn't want to grab a later technology since they weren't that much more expensive than Nationalism. After Liberalism, I teched towards Drama (theatres) then Guilds (on the way to Economics).

    Sitting Bull loses a city to Mao. This game doesn't seem to be going well for him.



    A few turns later, an AP vote ended the war between the two (but it DIDN'T end the war between Sitting Bull and Gilgamesh). Great, now Mao needs to be bribed again to war.

    Speaking of our Chinese neighbor, I made a trade with him to get Engineering. Mao is one of the more backward AI's on the map (but the most powerful).



    Once I finished researchign Guilds, it was on to Banking. I was the first to Guids, by the way.

    Along the way, Gilgamesh founds Islam. :rolleyes:

    Banking in, go for Economics and the free Great Merchant. Still, no AI has Guilds at this time.



    An interesting AP vote came up.



    I voted to give the city back to Sitting Bull. This would just make Mao less powerful (what I want) and Sitting Bull more powerful (what I want). It isn't much, but I'm hoping Sitting Bull can keep Mao and Gilgamesh distracted while I prepare for my war with Mao.

    Speaking of war preparations, I switched to Theocracy after I had several cities ready to build units (i.e. 1 turn away). Saladin is now friendly and is willing to sign a defensive pact, which means he somehow teched Nationalism and Military Tradition. I accept a Defensive Pact.

    I finished Economics in 1240 AD (IIRC, no AI had Guilds. The tech pace in this game is incredible) to get the free Great Merchant. Does anyone know a fast and efficient way to see how much gold a GM will get from a city without having to go and manually check every city? I tested the GM at Beijing, Mecca, but settled on Mutal (Pacal's capital with the 10 or so wonders in it).

    After Economics, I tech to Gunpowder. Meanwhile, Mao declares on Sitting Bull again. Excellent!

    A Great Scientist was soon born out of Bibracte (because of the Great Library) and I used him to bulb a healthy portion of Printing Press.



    Saladin, however, already had Printing Press by that date, and maybe one more AI (Gilgamesh?). The effect of Printing Press was substantial when it was researched, raising my beaker count per turn from 402 to 446 at 70% research. After Printing Press, I researched Replaceable Parts (I already had Gunpowder) and then to Rifling.

    I get a random event and take the free scientist. Other options were to have happiness for a short burst of time and something else.



    Now I came to a significant decision point. Darius' three cities were culturally pressing two of my cities and I was preparing to war with him. However, Darius was willing to be my voluntary vassal.



    I checked the diplomacy situation and accepted. Saladin was the only AI I really cared about upsetting at this point and Saladin was Friendly towards Darius, which meant that Saladin would still be "Friendly" with me despite having a vassal. As a bonus, I now was able to fully utilize Persepolis and Pasargadae's fat crosses.



    This, of course, meant that Mao is the next, immediate target.

    To make Mao busy, I bribe him to war with Pacal II. Pacal II was in a Golden Age and his demographics were skyrocketing so he needed some slowing down. The war resulted in Great Generals from both sides, and a couple of cities being captured/recaptured. Nothing particularly major. The good news, though, was that Mao lost his stack of doom, which I FINALLY managed to find with my scouts in Chinese territory.



    Pacal II became annoyed at this time, so I thought it was best to use the Great Merchant NOW than risk losing Open Borders. I obtained 2550 gold.



    Now, the reason Pacal's demographics skyrocketed was that he completed the Taj Mahal in Mutal (yeah he beat me to it) so he now had the Golden Age. Speaking of which, Pacal completed the Spiral Minaret, Versailles, the University of Sankore, Angkor Wat, and possibly a few others that I forgot.

    To somewhat compensate for the lost golden age, I generated a lot of Great Merchant specialists in Persepolis, hoping to burn one for a Golden Age. I got a Great Engineer instead from the Pyramids. I was really tempted to use him for a later wonder but decided that it was best to just have a golden age.



    This, of course, skyrocketed my GNP as I have a lot of cottages.

    Finally, the most important tech of the round was researched.



    Kind of ironic who said that quote above. :lol:

    No AI had Replaceable Parts, so I was feeling confident with my soon-to-be rifle army.

    I researched Chemistry after Rifling.



    I got a really nice random event which gave +1 happiness to EVERY city. I wish I get those kind of events more often.



    I finished Chemistry soon after and began Optics as it was a prerequisite for Astronomy which everyone else had (even though it's next to useless on a Pangea map).



    Once Optics was in, I opted for Steel. No AI had it and I was hoping to use Steel to backfill several techs I had missed along the way, which will be shown in the technology advisor screen in part II of this round.



    With all the gold I had in hand, I upgraded 10 mostly City Raider 2 maces to rifles, which cost 2000 gold. I also upgraded 6 Gallic Warriors (all city raiders) to rifles, costing 2010 gold.



    And I forgot to mention that during the Golden Age, I switched to Nationhood so that I could draft units. I didn't build the Globe Theatre in the southern fish city (took too long) so I went for the horse city in plains. Yes, it's a horrible GT location but it was a horrible city anyway and it provided me with virtually free rifles every turn or two.

    As a result from all this army build up, my stack looked like this.



    In Part II, I will talk about my war plan.


    [To be continued in next post]
     
  4. DMOC

    DMOC Mathematician

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    Round 7: 990 AD to 1455 AD (67 Turns), Part II

    [Continued from previous post]


    I will show some statistics first then lay out my plan.

    Domestic:

    Spoiler :


    Foreign:

    Spoiler :


    Technology:

    Spoiler :


    Civics:

    Spoiler :


    GNP:

    Spoiler :


    Power:

    Spoiler :



    All that military has catapulted my power rating, but it's not near Mao's. I don't really think that will be an issue, though.

    So basically, war with Mao is inevitable next round. I've mapped out his territory.

    Spoiler :


    This is an updated map.

    So what should I do? I have a scout on a strategically well-placed hill in Chinese territory (the same scout who I started the game with! :crazyeye:) which you can see on the previous map. The scout can see the garrisons of three cities: Beijing, Shanghai, and Chengdu. They are surprising unimpressive - several longbows in each city, although Beijing does have several catapults. There are some knights roaming around, but rifles have a bonus verses them so they shouldn't be a problem.

    My plan is to split my monster stack into three. One stack goes for the southern city of Tianjin, the second will assault Macau to the southeast, and the third will go direcly east to Guangzhou. Then the second and third stacks combine together to capture Beijing while the first stack goes from Tianjin to Maygar. I will use spies to take down defenses in Beijing.

    That is my plan. Hopefully I will capture plenty of cities to force Mao into vassalizing to me.

    My only concern with my stack is a lack of spies. I am also a little short on trebuchets, which is why you can see on my domestic advisor that I am building a lot of trebuchets.

    That's my war plan. Now, how about techs?

    I'm thinking I should stick with Steel, but what about after that? Scientific Method isn't that appealing since I have the Great Library and Saladin already has it. Darius (my vassal) will research Astronomy in 4 turns so I'm hoping to get it.

    ------------------

    One last question: sometimes when in wars I see city cultural defenses change (such as going from 60% to 100%) without me doing anything. This happens when I select different units. Anyone know the reason for this?

    The save:
     

    Attached Files:

  5. CivSetä

    CivSetä Warlord

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    ^^ City defences change because gunpowder units don't care about walls and castles any more, but older units still do.

    War plan looks ok, but I would use only two stacks if you are not 100% sure about locations of Mao's units.
     
  6. DMOC

    DMOC Mathematician

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    Good point. I don't know where Mao has a stack of doom, if he has one. I've checked all his cities (not simultaneously, though) and they are all guarded by several longbows and some additional knights/pikemen/catapults.
     
  7. Yeekim

    Yeekim Moderator Moderator

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    Somebody once claimed, that a GM is best used in a city with a Temple of Artemis, so I figure that the cash you receive depends from city pop and trade routes.

    I have done no extensive research, but a city with ToA has always worked well for me :)
     
  8. Jabah

    Jabah Emperor

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    You probably should sell Philo to SB for his 790g since it won't help him much and doesn't could as trading (for the worst ennemy trading thing).

    With our stack and the shape of your border with Mao (and the fact that he his already at war), I would not worry to much about Mao having a scarry SoD somewhere...
     
  9. DMOC

    DMOC Mathematician

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    Round 8: 1455 AD to 1580 AD (26 Turns), Part I


    This round really took a long time to play despite that it was only 26 turns. Wars in this game are so time consuming, notwithstanding that they are fun. I also tried to take plenty of screenshots for you viewers. :) I started by making some minor changes/observations and so on. One such example was selling Philosophy to Sitting Bull for his pile of gold (790). Sitting Bull is teching as slow as a sloth this game, and here's why.



    I also found it interesting that it seems like I am the only player on the map to have any large expanses of floodplains whatsoever apart from Sitting Bull's city of Poverty Point and maybe 2 or 3 scattered across the map. I will check on that later. :goodjob:

    To prepare for the upcoming war, I chagned civics from Representation to Police State. As it turned out, changing to Police State proved to be truly helpful, as I never turned up the culture slider AT ALL this round.

    I managed to do some tech trading to catch up on some that I had missed.







    Finally, on turn 316 of this game, Mao and I had a peace treaty canceled. It was time.



    [To be continued in next post]
     
  10. jason77024

    jason77024 Warlord

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    To give one specific example, I once had a GM arrive at Uruk one turn before Gilgamesh completed the ToA. The GM would have brought in 2250 before, but with the ToA I got ~2850 instead.

    To DMOC: Is there a diplo reason for not selling Banking to SB for those 790 :gold: ?
     
  11. DMOC

    DMOC Mathematician

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    Round 8: 1455 AD to 1580 AD (26 Turns), Part II - The Fall of China


    My favorite part of this round. :goodjob:

    Several turns before the round, I had split up my stack into three groups. This was because after extensive scouting, the only "reasonable" stack that Mao seemed to have were 10 knights that were in a former city of Sitting Bull (yeah this game has really been cruel to him - starting in a practically all-hill location?!?). This meant that it was unlikely that I would ever need to combine all my troops together so I split them up to obtain Mao's cities in the least amount of turns invested. Mao had already researched Replaceable Parts so I definitely did not want to give him the chance to get rifles. The whole war lasted only 20 or 21 turns, by the way.

    One of the benefits of splitting my stack was that I was able to steal several weakly-guarded workers in different locations on my border with China. Here's an example of a rifle killing a pikeman guarding 2 workers.



    The nearby Chinese mace, also guarding a worker or two, suffered the same fate. This gave me my first Great General of the game, which I settled in Persepolis because it is my future Ironworks city and will be producing a lot of units in this game. The chinese city of Macau was the first to fall two turns into the war, on the same turn that Saladin won the race to Physics. :mad:



    The next turn, I took 2 cities on the same turn, Guangzhou, followed by Tianjin.





    That was three cities captured in the first three turns of the war. Pretty nice, considering that Mao had a higher power rating than me at the beginning of the war. In fact, the only bad news in this round was that an AP vote ended the Sitting Bull - Mao war so basically it was just me versus him.

    By the way, it's interesting that I've just recently captured Macau and it's already at 13% Celtic culture, meaning I can draft. Drafting this round proved to be a boon to help get more rifles to the front lines.



    After I captured the first three cities, I combined two of my easternmost stacks into one to assault Beijing while the third one attacked Magyar, a southern Chinese city.

    Ready to attack the weakly-defended Beijing. Mao's power graph was really misleading.



    Look at the loot in Beijing! The Mausoleum of Maussollos! And the SP but the MoM is better. As well as three military instructors!



    I attacked Magyar with my third stack, which proved to be a bit more difficult than I expected to. I lost two trebuchets but my rifles managed to succeed. This ended up with Great General #2, which I used on a chariot to make a 3-move medic 3 chariot, who was later freely upgraded to a knight.



    Now at this point, I FINALLY got to see a halfway-decent stack of Mao's.



    Yes, a bunch of outdated and injured units. They were clearly headed towards Beijing so I decided to withdraw my trebuchets, catapults, and several valuable city raider riflemen, leaving 14 rifles in the city (there were several more riflemen to the northwest that I garrisoned in Beijing), most of them promoted to at least City Garrison 1 and Combat 2 since both promotions will work even when cities are in revolt. The turn that followed was easily one of the longest ever in this game, and which may have begun to break Mao's back.

    My force of riflemen managed to kill all 22 units in 1 turn! And the best part was, Mao didn't even attack with his Cho-ko-nu's first! Ridiculous...:lol:

    Oh wait, never mind. The best part of this was that I suffered ZERO losses.





    This made Mao's power graph take a nose dive.

    In terms of the technology front (which admittedly was distressingly slow this round), I researched Steel and got there first.



    I selected Corporation next turn to gain the additional +1 trading routes per turn. And it also leads to this so-called technology of Assembly Line. I heard it might be useful for war. :mischief: But back to reality. The discovery of steel meant that I upgraded 8-12 trebuchets/catapults to CANNONS! This meant that attacking Shanghai was ridiculously easy.



    Oh dear, it looked like I was attacking across a river.

    And of course, after the fall of Shanghai, Mao could bear it no more.



    I switch the peace treaty by giving up the city Mao was giving to me (it was a useless plains city and I tried to get him to give me Xian, the only desirable Chinese city, but no such luck). I made him cough up Divine Right instead. Does anyone know why Mao will only accept a ceasefire and not a ten turn peace deal?

    Anyway, that was Great General #3, which I will save for a Military Academy in a city (Beijing?) once Darius coughs up Military Science which I told him to research.

    Well, the war was over...but that doesn't mean it's over for the whole game....

    [To be continued in next post]
     
  12. DMOC

    DMOC Mathematician

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    [Continued from previous post]

    Round 8: 1455 AD to 1580 AD (26 Turns), Part III - What's to Come Next?


    As usual, the last part of the round contains some game information accessible from the advisors.

    Domestic

    Spoiler :


    Civics

    Spoiler :


    Technology

    Spoiler :


    GNP

    Spoiler :


    Power (I am second according to demographics, and Gilgamesh and Sitting Bull are not visible)

    Spoiler :


    Beijing - My future Military academy/West Point/Forbidden palace city. Heroic Epic will go in that northern city "Camul...something."

    Spoiler :


    Persepolis - Ironworks

    Spoiler :


    Bibracte - Oxford (need 3 more universities)
    Spoiler :


    Pacal's territory.

    Spoiler :


    Victory conditions.

    Spoiler :



    So I think this game is in great shape for a domination win. The only question now is whether to attack Pacal II NOW or get my GNP back up and THEN attack. Reasons to attack him now include the facts that Pacal II doesn't have Replaceable Parts, his power rating is low, Mutal has 13 wonders (Sistine Chapel and the Statue of Liberty to name two), Versailles is also located in another Mayan city, and Pacal is the worst enemy of Gilgamesh, Saladin, and Mao.

    Saladin and Gilgamesh will likely declare war a few turns in the next round and the target will probably be Pacal. I could watch with popcorn, or I could join and get some more land.

    Or I could stay at peace and get my GNP up... hm...

    My tech plan will be Corporation -> Biology -> Steam Power -> Assembly Line. Maybe Democracy should be there somewhere. Biology is somewhat MORE important on this map as usual becuase this means that ALL THOSE PLAINS FARMS on this map (believe me there are a lot of these - Beijing only has TWO grasslands in it) will give a food surplus.

    The save, if you want to see:
     

    Attached Files:

  13. DMOC

    DMOC Mathematician

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    I don't think so. I don't know when you get demerits from trading, to be honest. Sometimes I trade and get demerits - other times I don't.
     
  14. tycoonist

    tycoonist Deity

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    attack pacal now while you still have the tech advantage (ie rifling).

    btw, this map script is really weird. its just miles of plains, deserts and hills.
     
  15. DMOC

    DMOC Mathematician

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    Yes, this certainly is a weird map script. But I'm not complaining here since I seem to have got the best land. :p Well, me and Sal at least.
     
  16. timmy827

    timmy827 King

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    Just a label thing in the game. I guess vassalship implies a peace treaty so it's not called as such. If capitulation not included and anything else is, it must be a peace treaty.
     
  17. DMOC

    DMOC Mathematician

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    That might be it timmy.

    By the way, I will be gone from my computer for several weeks and will not be back until the middle of August. This means the next round will not be for a while (but rest assured I will try and make it a long round).

    From the time span now until then, feel free to add comments.
     
  18. JBossch

    JBossch King

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    On the issue of getting negative diplo for trading: Maybe someone who knows about the code or whatever can confirm this but it seems to me that negative diplo occurring from trading with an AI's worst enemy is triggered when a certain threshold is reached. What that is may vary across leaders, eras, I'm not really sure. I know that I have managed small trades like OB's, resources, or older techs without getting any negative diplo. Anything big like a multiple tech trade is sure to trigger the negative diplo.
     
  19. DMOC

    DMOC Mathematician

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    I'm finally back and it looks like I need to revive this thread somehow.

    Anyway, I will try to get the next round here ASAP.
     
  20. Krick19

    Krick19 Prince

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    Heh, just read through. I've had a few plains heavy starts recently and looking at your city mapping process will help me in the future. Looking forward to the next segment.
     

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