Do theatre squares need an additional adjacency bonus?

[Dotsworthy]

Basically yeah. Barring wonders and city centre/governement plaza there are no other agency bonuses unless playing a specific civ.

While I don't think culture victory is hard to obtain, it would be nice for it to be slightly easier to get good bonuses on theatre squares, such as natural wonders maybe or commercial hubs?

Thoughts?

 

[criZp]

Yeah I agree, I modded them to have standard adjacency from luxuries.

 

[Kouvb593kdnuewnd]

Adjacency from Entertainment complex make some sense and would make them more important.

 

[tedhebert]

I agree... harbors, CH and Campus all have great adjacency bonus, and I fail to see why TS shouldn't also get some

 

[kaspergm]

Adjacency from Entertainment complex make some sense and would make them more important.

I actually have that in a mod, and I like that ... well, I think I made it the other way around, so Entertainment complexes get +1 culture from being adjacent to Theatres, which actually is a worse implementation, because it doesn't help towards the Theatre District policy that triggers with +3 adjacency. But I agree, this is something that should be added.

 

[Kouvb593kdnuewnd]

Everyone seems to Agree on Entertainment complex being weak and need some sort of buff. Theatre Squares are important simply due to Culture, Argubly it and campus if anything need be made less important as right now they are basically the primary districts no matter what strategy or victory goal you are targeting.

Commercial hub and harbours seems to be more used for their trade route rather than the its buildings and effects and industrial zone are hard to balance, either it is going to be strong or weak as it is production to gain production.

Maybe the best balanced district is the holy site because it is really needed for some strategies due to religious units need it but it is not considered an absolute necessity unlike campus/theatre square.

 

[bengalryan9]

I think campuses are too easy to get adjacency on more than I think that theater squares are too difficult to get adjacency on, TBH.

 

[UWHabs]

I think campuses are too easy to get adjacency on more than I think that theater squares are too difficult to get adjacency on, TBH.

I would agree with that. While I certainly like expanding beyond just mountains and rainforest for campuses, right now it's turned into much more of a "find a reef/fissure near a mountain for a quick +3" rather than anything else with them. Even dropping them to a simple +1 per reef/fissure (on par with mountains) would tone it down a little bit more.

 

[criZp]

I think campuses are too easy to get adjacency on more than I think that theater squares are too difficult to get adjacency on, TBH.

Campuses should perhaps get only minor adjacency from mountains.

 

[acluewithout]

I like Theatre Squares as they are. You have to really work for the Adjacencies, and really most of their culture come from Great Works rather than Adjacencies and Buildings, which is a much more interesting Mechanic.

I think people should also bear in mind that there are other sources of culture, including Monuments (obviously) but also Dedications etc. I just don’t think TS are intended to be your default source of Culture, in contrast eg to Campuses which you’re encouraged to just throw down and forget.

 

[Aurelesk]

It could be a good idea to have Plantation as adjacency bonus for Theatre Square. It is a tile improvement that does not provide any adjacencies, not including the Mayan. This is also true for Farms, Camp and Pasture. Plus, the majority of Plantation crops are "drugs", once represented under the Goddess of Festivals (Wine, Incense, Cocoa, Tobacco, Coffee and Tea). A lot of Writers tend to use Coffee / Tea, and Wine / Tobacco / other was often used to draw inspiration. Giving the Theatre Square an adjacency bonus from Plantation does not seem to come out of nowhere.

Camp and Pasture could work well for Entertainment Complex if it is reworked to work similarly like other district (with Great People, adjacency bonuses...). You need to fill those Zoos! We could also add Seaside Resort / Ski Resort to this.

Same thing for Encampment: it could have adjaceny bonuses from strategic ressource, Military Engineer tile improvement (Fort, Airstrip, Missile Silo...) and Aerodrome. But this also means that we need to strip away the adjacency bonus from strategic ressource off thr Industrial Zone first. It could compensate by giving all the Power tile improvements (Solar / Wind Farm, Geothermal Plant...) adjancencies.

 

[bbbt]

Campuses should perhaps get only minor adjacency from mountains.

And maybe +2 for an adjacent reef/fissure period (ala commercial hub and river) not each adjacent.

Would make chopping rainforests less appealing as well if you need them for campus adjacency.

I think some of the cultural improvements (from CS and UIs) should give a minor adjacency bonus to theater squares.

 

[Archon_Wing]

Nah, the point of the TS is to hold more works.

However, the TS buildings (especially t2/t3) could use some help. Grand Opera is a pretty bad card because of the low building base yield. (though honestly, so is Free Market)

 

[Sostratus]

I agree... harbors, CH and Campus all have great adjacency bonus, and I fail to see why TS shouldn't also get some

I think CH adjacency should be changed to let the river bonus be a little more flexible- since rivers are now named and tracked, perhaps gold PER river, or gold per river edge.

You also don’t want to have the level of adjacency proliferation that we see on campuses. Science and culture are the most valuable yields, so +2 science or culture is worth much, much more than +2 gold.

I do like that EC-TS interplay though.

 

[acluewithout]

I think CHs are meant to have weaker adjacency outside of Harbours, and quite like that design. That said, I do like the idea of moving from a Flat +2 for a River to e.g. a +1 per river tile or +2 per different rivers.

Really though, CHs need a bit more “purpose”, which I think really comes down to the Bank and Stock Exchange. They don’t necessarily need a Buff, but the Tier 2 and 3 CH Buildings need to do something more than just give flat gold.

I wouldn’t mind seeing a EC / TS adjacency, but I think that’s more about flavour. I also mod in a +2 CH Adjacency for an Oasis. It has zero impact on the game, but feels really right.

 

[kaspergm]

And maybe +2 for an adjacent reef/fissure period (ala commercial hub and river) not each adjacent.

Would make chopping rainforests less appealing as well if you need them for campus adjacency.

I have modded it myself so Campuses only get a minor adjacency bonus from mountains (i.e. +1 per. 2 mountains), but a major bonus from rainforest (+1 per. rainforest). I've also cut the fissure bonus to +1. I can confirm it definitely shifts the meta of rainforests a lot, now I really have to balance the pros of keeping them for the easy Campus adjacency or cutting them for the immediate yields and opening the terrain.

It also means, for better or worse, that rainforest starts are now the king of early science. It should be said that I also have modded it so that rainforests do not have additive yields but work more like in Civ5, so my rainforest tiles have generally lower yields than those in unmodded Civ6, so this balances it fairly well. I have also removed the option for lumber mills on rainforests, so if you keep them for adjacency, they are basically stuck as low-yield tiles.

One problem with this design is the way developers designed mountains. Each mountain type - desert mountains, plains mountains, grassland mountains, tundra mountains, ice mountains - is considered a different type of feature. This means that a campus that is adjacent to 1 grassland mountain and 1 desert mountain will NOT get the adjacency bonus, because the way the code works is you add a line for each mountain type and then the game checks for them separately. I don't know if this is something that can be circumvented without a change in the dll, but it's definitely a weakness with my mod.

 

[acluewithout]

snip

That’s really interesting.

I do thing Rainforest Lumbermills was a bit of a mistake, although the way it’s been implemented is sort of okay. Rainforests seemed originally balanced around being good early game unimproved, but then you sort of needed to get rid of them although with some trade-offs v Campuses. Lumbermills sort of make Rainforests good all game which is a bit lame.

There also now just so many Campus Adjacencies - mountains, jungle, Geo Thermals, Reefs, plus of course certain Wonders and other Districts. I feel like I cam almost build Campuses anywhere.

 

[Sostratus]

That’s really interesting.

I do thing Rainforest Lumbermills was a bit of a mistake, although the way it’s been implemented is sort of okay. Rainforests seemed originally balanced around being good early game unimproved, but then you sort of needed to get rid of them although with some trade-offs v Campuses. Lumbermills sort of make Rainforests good all game which is a bit lame.

There also now just so many Campus Adjacencies - mountains, jungle, Geo Thermals, Reefs, plus of course certain Wonders and other Districts. I feel like I cam almost build Campuses anywhere.

Well in absence of trading post or something similar, something needed to go on jungle.
I don’t mind it being lumbermills with the caveat that they come later. (Personally I think it’s a little too late for current game pacing but w/e.)

I also happen to think lumbermills as implemented are perhaps... too good, but that’s off topic.

I agree that campus adj has proliferated immensely. I don’t take great works into the TS adj equation because imo those are tied to buildings. I think Adj is a core tool to attempt to set up the following: “this city would do well to specialize in/prioritize X because <relevant district> would be strong here”
But, with how districts work, that’s only partially possible. Theater squares are a little weird because you sort of build around wonders after the fact.

 

[Hans Castorp]

I don't see the need for additional TS adjacency bonuses. It is one of the easiest districts to get a very high adjacency bonus if you are so minded.

 

[kb27787]

They're fine as they are... +2/wonder is plenty.

If I would add anything, perhaps +1 per natural wonder and +1 per national park tile perhaps. Or maybe +1 per certain unique improvements which are only 1 per city (open air museums, hockey rinks, and golf courses)