Do theatre squares need an additional adjacency bonus?

[Victoria]

The Culture CS give tonnes of Culture, there is some good natural wonders and the Coliseum is great for culture... in fact fantastic for culture.
1 Wonder + 2 Theater squares + 1 government plaza = 2 +4 adjacency theaters dounbling up with a card.
And do not forget there is less civics in the game than techs yet amber/jade/silk still produce 1.
Its fine, used to be worse... and the CS have made it a whole lot easier.

christ, let some things be a little difficult eh? So many people complaining the game is too easy and this is asking for it to be easier.

 

[steveg700]

Seems to me that most districts have multiple factors contributing to their adjacency bonuses, so it's reasonable to question why TS's should be stuck relying on a single factor that implicitly requires a city to have high production. Commercial hubs have a similar issue, but of course rivers are a lot easier to come by. I would prefer a less common secondary bonus source, which I think should be +2 for oasis adjacencies.

This is, I don't know what would do the trick for TS's. I wouldn't want adjacency for other districts. Too ubiquitous. Maybe after clearing a tribal village, it can leave behind a cultural terrain feature that can provide an adjacency bonus.

Or maybe some pantheon beliefs can provide adjacency bonuses. So, it's something you would have to spring for.

I don't see the need for additional TS adjacency bonuses. It is one of the easiest districts to get a very high adjacency bonus if you are so minded.

...as long as "easy" is defined as building a bunch of adjacent wonders, which means the definition has a lot of print stipulating a contingency on a multitude of circumstantial factors.

The Culture CS give tonnes of Culture, there is some good natural wonders and the Coliseum is great for culture... in fact fantastic for culture.

Yes, CS bonuses stacking can eclipse adjacency bonuses. But that doesn't obivate conversation about inadequate adjacency bonuses.

1 Wonder + 2 Theater squares + 1 government plaza = 2 +4 adjacency theaters dounbling up with a card.
And do not forget there is less civics in the game than techs yet amber/jade/silk still produce 1.
Its fine, used to be worse... and the CS have made it a whole lot easier.

christ, let some things be a little difficult eh? So many people complaining the game is too easy and this is asking for it to be easier.

It's not a matter of easy or difficult. Its feast or famine. If you have a city with the means to compete for wonders, which means high production and woods to chop, you wind up able to build wonders. If not, oh well. So it's not about too easy necessarily--though, yeah, if you're objecting to getting bonuses for just chucking down an entertainment complex, I'm with you. Pass on that. It's really more an issue of having some variety and making the city-planning minigame more interesting.

 

[Hans Castorp]

...as long as "easy" is defined as building a bunch of adjacent wonders, which means the definition has a lot of print stipulating a contingency on a multitude of circumstantial factors.

Yep. Though if a decent adjacency bonus is anything that would get you the Historic Moment, then as Victoria points out, +4 is doable with a single wonder and a bit of district-planning, which is not the highest bar to clear even on Deity.

 

[steveg700]

Yep. Though if a decent adjacency bonus is anything that would get you the Historic Moment, then as Victoria points out, +4 is doable with a single wonder and a bit of district-planning, which is not the highest bar to clear even on Deity.

I don't know of too many wonders you can take for granted in Deity, at least not until late enough in the game that you would care whether or not you got a good adjacency bonus.

And the proposition for wonders is leaving you focused on an unscalable proposition. How many wonders do you average per city? How government plazas do you average per city? If we're talking about two neighboring cities building a couple of TS's milking the same adjacency bonuses from a plaza and wonder, then that's not scalable.

I always want to see the map be the game's biggest hero, and offer lots of variety. It's not doing that for TS's right now. You can't really plan a future city around having a wonder, so you can't dedicate a city site to being a culture and tourism city, unless you get a wonder and the settle a city nearby.

But situations can easily lock your civ out of building wonders, because you're having to build soldiers to fight, build settlers to race for territory, build holy sites and buildings to not lose your religion to AI missionary spam, and so forth.

 

[Hans Castorp]

I don't know of too many wonders you can take for granted in Deity, at least not until late enough in the game that you would care whether or not you got a good adjacency bonus.

And the proposition for wonders is leaving you focuses on an unscalable proposition. How many wonders do you average per city? How government plazas do you average per city? If we're talking about two neighboring cities building a couple of TS's milking the same adjacency bonuses from a plaza and wonder, then that's not scalable.

I always want to see the map be the game's biggest hero, and offer lots of variety. It's not doing that for TS's right now. You can't really plan a future city around having a wonder.

Fair enough - you are not going to wind up with a +4 TS in every city, as you plausibly can with CH, Harbour, etc.. I guess I don't think that every TS needs to have an amazing adjacency bonus, but I don't find it that difficult to get one or two wonders in the first couple of cities and get a couple of good TS set up by mid-game. For the rest, they are mostly there for storing GWs, etc.

 

[Victoria]

Yes when a TS gets 2 writers, 3 relics and a musician it is doing pretty well for itself and also consider that gold is at half the price of science or less which in reality is roughly 1/4 cheaper than culture.

 

[tedhebert]

The Culture CS give tonnes of Culture, there is some good natural wonders and the Coliseum is great for culture... in fact fantastic for culture.

Well, that might be very true, but the exact same can be said for campus/Science.

1 Wonder + 2 Theater squares + 1 government plaza = 2 +4 adjacency theaters dounbling up with a card.

Well yes, but... That's just ONE city (gov plaza) and implies Wonders. That,s certainly not as clear cut as any other buidling/district giving adj bonus

christ, let some things be a little difficult eh? So many people complaining the game is too easy and this is asking for it to be easier.

Lol.. I agree with you, I'm not saying that the CV conditions are extremely hard to meet. It's more than I feel the TS should be more interesting to put down is all

 

[steveg700]

Well, that might be very true, but the exact same can be said for campus/Science.

Right, and it's neither here nor there as far as this discussion goes. This thread is not about the difficulty of accruing culture or tourism.

Well yes, but... That's just ONE city (gov plaza) and implies Wonders. That,s certainly not as clear cut as any other buidling/district giving adj bonus

I'll beat someone else to the punch and say most folks plan to use plazas and wonders to boost more than one TS. They focus two, maybe three TS's around the same cluster.

Lol.. I agree with you, I'm not saying that the CV conditions are extremely hard to meet. It's more than I feel the TS should be more interesting to put down is all

Exactly. It's making the city-planning minigame that's under discussion, not racing towards a CV faster.

I don't know that we're talking about racking up high amounts of adjacency bonuses. Just not the feast-or-famine scenario we currently have that basically means a culture city is a city with Magnus and lots of woods to chop.

 

[Victoria]

Agreeing with you in some ways, certainly not anti what you say... just being more 'corrective'

Well, that might be very true, but the exact same can be said for campus/Science.

... not as strong over so many... Rapa Nui ... you know how much culture you can get with this puppy form a single city? Kumasi in a 10 pop city is 8 culture per trade route with no outlay. Antananarivo... up to 30% culture which scales nicely and is easily reachable, Caguana is similar to Rapa Nui, not quite as OP and Nan Madhol is realy OP early. Just Vilnius is rubbish. So on the science side Geneva at 15% only is at peace... Taruga at 15-20% by the end game is OK, Stockholm, not science specific but nice... Palenque, Seol, Mitla, Hattusa, Fez? Where is their science?.... Babylon... fair enough IF you have theaters.... but Rapa Nui is quite frightening on grassland.

the TS should be more interesting to put down is all

well... already it has writers that double at priting, archaeologists or artists or a choice of both.... and a lonely single musician that gets rather strong at the end of the culture tree. 3 different great peoples, 4 buildings, rock concerts, border expansion... I personally think they are not dull compared to a campus.

not as clear cut as any other buidling/district giving adj bonus

Nope... harder but nowhere near impossible

 

[acluewithout]

I really do think Theatre Squares are deliberately short adjacencies, and so improving their adjacencies would make them massively unbalanced.

The reality is that you don’t need Theatre Squares for Culture, and the game is very much balanced around that. eg Monuments, how Cultural City States work, even certain Wonders, Natural Wonders, Resources. Even Religious Beliefs and Pantheons - I mean, it’s surely not an accident there’s a heap of Culture Pantheons but no Science Pantheons.

TS are very much focused on Cultural Domination. It’s all about the Great Works. Indeed, surely that’s why Wonders are one of the few TS adjacencies - basically a way to reward / buff building Wonders which already produce Tourism etc.

The districts are asymmetrical on purpose. Some have lots of adjacencies. Some don’t. Campuses and Holy Sites have heaps of Adjacencies. TS and CHs don’t. And the game is balanced around that.

 

[SammyKhalifa]

I really do think Theatre Squares are deliberately short adjacencies, and so improving their adjacencies would make them massively unbalanced.

The reality is that you don’t need Theatre Squares for Culture, and the game is very much balanced around that. eg Monuments, how Cultural City States work, even certain Wonders, Natural Wonders, Resources. Even Religious Beliefs and Pantheons - I mean, it’s surely not an accident there’s a heap of Culture Pantheons but no Science Pantheons.

TS are very much focused on Cultural Domination. It’s all about the Great Works. Indeed, surely that’s why Wonders are one of the few TS adjacencies - basically a way to reward / buff building Wonders which already produce Tourism etc.

The districts are asymmetrical on purpose. Some have lots of adjacencies. Some don’t. Campuses and Holy Sites have heaps of Adjacencies. TS and CHs don’t. And the game is balanced around that.

I agree . . . but I should really want to build a TS making it a difficult decision on whether to make the time to build one. Often it doesn't seem worth it unless going (as you said) for CV. IMO seeing that culture is one of the main currencies in the game it should be a tough call whether to build theater or the campus.

 

[conorbebe]

I’d give them a minor adjacency bonus for Natural Wonders and Entertainment Complexes.

 

[acluewithout]

snip

They are useful outside of a CV.

They can be very tempting if you’ve managed to snag an early wonder, and can then leverage that wonder, Gov Plaza etc to get Era Score, more adjacencies. A few great writer works can also be a huge leg up - and if your can’t generate a the GPP, then you can just buy books from the AI.

I guess YMMV, but actually find the decisions around whether or not to build TS and where to place super interesting decisions. Much more interesting then, say, Campuses which are just so easy to place everywhere.

 

[SammyKhalifa]

yeah, i guess my thoughts aren't as much to making theaters better as getting campus tougher.

 

[steveg700]

The districts are asymmetrical on purpose. Some have lots of adjacencies. Some don’t. Campuses and Holy Sites have heaps of Adjacencies. TS and CHs don’t. And the game is balanced around that.

Is there some argument here that elevates this above supposition?

The reality is that you don’t need Theatre Squares for Culture, and the game is very much balanced around that. eg Monuments, how Cultural City States work, even certain Wonders, Natural Wonders, Resources. Even Religious Beliefs and Pantheons - I mean, it’s surely not an accident there’s a heap of Culture Pantheons but no Science Pantheons.

...This doesn't do the trick for me. It's all too reliant on happenstance rather than strategy. Take pantheons out of it altogether, because there's almost always a better choice than getting +1 culture from some tiles of a particular type. That's why I'd rather they grant the adjacency bonus instead, so you can plan multiple TS's around your plantations or pastures of whatever.

And most of that stuff applies to boosting science as well.

I really do think Theatre Squares are deliberately short adjacencies, and so improving their adjacencies would make them massively unbalanced.

"Massively" unbalanced? That's hyperbolic insomuch as the impact on balance would depend entirely on what other sorts of adjacencies are proposed. But nothing would match the massive imbalance afforded by CS's.

For that matter, it would be tough to match what campuses are getting from mountains, and I'm sure the same devil's advocates who would argue that TS's are fine as-is would also be the first to argue that campuses are fine as-is getting their massive mountain bonuses that can make the +2 from a wonder sound shabby and wretched.

 

[tedhebert]

... not as strong over so many... Rapa Nui ... you know how much culture you can get with this puppy form a single city? Kumasi in a 10 pop city is 8 culture per trade route with no outlay. Antananarivo... up to 30% culture which scales nicely and is easily reachable, Caguana is similar to Rapa Nui, not quite as OP and Nan Madhol is realy OP early. Just Vilnius is rubbish. So on the science side Geneva at 15% only is at peace... Taruga at 15-20% by the end game is OK, Stockholm, not science specific but nice... Palenque, Seol, Mitla, Hattusa, Fez? Where is their science?.... Babylon... fair enough IF you have theaters.... but Rapa Nui is quite frightening on grassland.

Honestly, i tend to discard Rapa Nui... Guess I'll look more into it, but seems to me if you don't have volcanic, lake or coast in your city, it becomes pretty standard because +2 culture a builder pop is okay but doesn't seem overwhelming to me. Kumasi, well sending routes to City-States seem counter productive to me (except to get an envoy for quest). I usually slot civic card for trade routes that either expect them to be to allies, international or internal, so... Haven't met Cagana yet, so can't comment. nan Madol, again, need coasts.

you know, I feel the fact that YOU play Vickie a lot (so lot of coast) and seem to be a CV player at heart, and that I am a lot more of a SV player at heart (over 2 to 1 ratio compared to CV), probably has a lot of impact on the opinions we have here ;-)

I WILL pay more attention to Rapa Nui... I'm pretty convinced you're right on this one, and that I'm very wrong to discard it that much.

well... already it has writers that double at priting, archaeologists or artists or a choice of both.... and a lonely single musician that gets rather strong at the end of the culture tree. 3 different great peoples, 4 buildings, rock concerts, border expansion... I personally think they are not dull compared to a campus.

oh... I'm not arguing about buildings value/interest in each district... you are quite right, TS buildings are much more interesting than Campus building, who apart from +housing have no flavour whatsoever. It's specifically the Adj bonus of the district itself that leaves me underwhelmed when deciding where to put it down. But I also agree with many of you here that the balance is probably good as it is, which is more than can be said for a lot of other things in the game.

 

[SammyKhalifa]

Honestly, i tend to discard Rapa Nui... Guess I'll look more into it, but seems to me if you don't have volcanic, lake or coast in your city, it becomes pretty standard because +2 culture a builder pop is okay but doesn't seem overwhelming to me. .

But in games where Rapa Nui is good it's bonkers.

Spoiler :

 

[tedhebert]

But in games where Rapa Nui is good it's bonkers.

Whoa... Wow ! you need not say more, Ma'm and Sir ! ;-)

 

[Deadly Dog]

I agree there's so much culture out there from Great Works and some city states bonuses are insane (I've had games where Nan Madol generated 40% of my culture, and there's a reason the Antananarivo bonus is now capped at 30%), that tweaking TS adjacency bonuses would require serious rebalancing. I like that its hard to get above a +4 on more than one or two TS's, makes them special. I like things to relate to real life too, and I'm trying to think why anything other than a wonder would make one TS more special than another.

But to scratch the itch of getting big numbers, Colosseum near the Govt Plaza is a great setup, being usually attainable and worth the effort for its own sake. Likewise Temple of Artemis, on lower levels, nice big city supporting a TS lets you get a good chance of getting another wonder, maybe even the Colosseum. Oh and each wonder could feed bonuses to at least 2 TS, of course.

 

[Victoria]

but seems to me if you don't have volcanic, lake or coast in your city, it becomes pretty standard because +2 culture a builder pop is okay but doesn't seem overwhelming to me.

Look at the tiles that are not volcanic in @SammyKhalifa picture and that is the point about grassland, you need to be able to grow your pop and then sustain it but when you can get 3-4 culture per tile early, it shoots up your culture and suddenly turns into 6-7

seem to be a CV player at heart, and that I am a lot more of a SV player at heart

I have played perhaps 5 CV’s in the last 3 months as opposed to about 30 SV’s

But in games where Rapa Nui is good it's bonkers.

Sure, but you do not need bonkers... you just need culture and as soon as I find it I’m looking for grassland not volcanoes... why? Coz grassland sucks unless it has volcanic soil, then you can build a mine on it. It’s not about OP for me but useable ground.