Do theatre squares need an additional adjacency bonus?

[tedhebert]

Look at the tiles that are not volcanic in @SammyKhalifa picture and that is the point about grassland, you need to be able to grow your pop and then sustain it but when you can get 3-4 culture per tile early, it shoots up your culture and suddenly turns into 6-7
I have played perhaps 5 CV’s in the last 3 months as opposed to about 30 SV’s
Sure, but you do not need bonkers... you just need culture and as soon as I find it I’m looking for grassland not volcanoes... why? Coz grassland sucks unless it has volcanic soil, then you can build a mine on it. It’s not about OP for me but useable ground.

yeah... I tend to look a prod first, then the rest as far as tile yields are concerned. I know it's a bad habit, and this kind of city is a perfect example... no prod, but lot's of food and pop, so lots of tiles, and all incredibly good at culture yield. This city doesn't need cogs to be great !

Surprised at your SV vs CV rate lately. Very I must say ;-)

And yes. Anything that makes grassland tiles good is a boon.

 

[RealHuhn]

I like Theatre Squares as they are. You have to really work for the Adjacencies, and really most of their culture come from Great Works rather than Adjacencies and Buildings, which is a much more interesting Mechanic.

I think people should also bear in mind that there are other sources of culture, including Monuments (obviously) but also Dedications etc. I just don’t think TS are intended to be your default source of Culture, in contrast eg to Campuses which you’re encouraged to just throw down and forget.

Yes, their concept is great but let's be real. On Deity I rarely get the first few Great Writers. Russia says hello just to name the worst offender. You can never plan cultural progression based on getting early Great Writers. It's too random. Only the adjacency matters from an immediate return of investment point of view and yeah, those adjacencies are very poor unless you build Pyramids and Petra next to each other or something similar. Enough early envoys in cultural CSs to buff amphi theatres can also shift that balance but then again, that's random and cannot be planned.

A +1 or even +2 adjacency bonus from entertainment complexes (or +1 and minor adjacency from luxuries) would certainly help a lot and it would buff the entertainment complex as well which is never a bad thing. I really like the idea of creating early cultural cities. No room for overpowered campuses until you hit size 10 if you want to get an early trade route as well. Campus spam is just way too easy and the reef/geothermal fissure bonus made it much worse.

 

[The Civs 6]

My experience with theater squares is that it's the cultural city states that really make them powerful early on. How often are you going to get many wonders early on in the game? How many of those wonders are even worth getting? Instead, I build theater squares (excluding games where I am going for a cultural victory from the start), when I find cultural city states. If you get one or two, that can mean an ampitheater gives you +4 or +6 culture - which is huge and totally makes them worth the production cost.

 

[RealHuhn]

My experience with theater squares is that it's the cultural city states that really make them powerful early on. How often are you going to get many wonders early on in the game? How many of those wonders are even worth getting? Instead, I build theater squares (excluding games where I am going for a cultural victory from the start), when I find cultural city states. If you get one or two, that can mean an ampitheater gives you +4 or +6 culture - which is huge and totally makes them worth the production cost.

Yeah, maybe we have to accept that. Theatre squares are only good on certain maps. Buffing them too much now would certainly create a lot of balancing issues.

 

[Mahi]

I'm quite sure you would need some rebalancing in the game if you made theater squares more powerful with more adjency bonus. Culture is much more balanced than science in my opinion.

 

[The Civs 6]

I'm quite sure you would need some rebalancing in the game if you made theater squares more powerful with more adjency bonus. Culture is much more balanced than science in my opinion.

Yeah that's a good point. Maybe this thread should be "do campuses and industrial zones need a nerf" And my answer is yes.

 

[steveg700]

Well, great. Maybe the thread can get back on-topic now.

Yeah, maybe we have to accept that. Theatre squares are only good on certain maps. Buffing them too much now would certainly create a lot of balancing issues.

I'm quite sure you would need some rebalancing in the game if you made theater squares more powerful with more adjency bonus. Culture is much more balanced than science in my opinion.

Like I've said, imbalance is only an issue if it's from something too common. The entertainment complex pairing that keeps getting suggested is too easy of a bonus. It would need to be something more situational and likely map-dependent.

As has been also stated more than once is that there are plenty of ways to rack up culture, and by that very logic having a few +3 or +4 TS's on a map that aren't reliant on Wonders would hardly upset balance. What would do is draw TS's into the city-planning game from the periphery where it hangs out now. It's not so much about more culture, just more variety in sourcing it.

 

[The Civs 6]

Well, great. Maybe the thread can get back on-topic now.


Like I've said, imbalance is only an issue if it's from something too common. The entertainment complex pairing that keeps getting suggested is too easy of a bonus. It would need to be something more situational and likely map-dependent.

As has been also stated more than once is that there are plenty of ways to rack up culture, and by that very logic having a few +3 or +4 TS's on a map that aren't reliant on Wonders would hardly upset balance. What would do is draw TS's into the city-planning game from the periphery where it hangs out now. It's not so much about more culture, just more variety in sourcing it.

It's kind of okay, if you are not going for a CV, to have theater squares forced to the margins of your planning. After all, if you could exploit the already overpowered science/production track AND get your culture going strong, that would be having your cake and eating it too.

 

[MrRadar]

Yes, their concept is great but let's be real. On Deity I rarely get the first few Great Writers. Russia says hello just to name the worst offender. You can never plan cultural progression based on getting early Great Writers. It's too random.

You don't necessarily need to get those cultural great people yourself. Only the product of their efforts matter, so if you absolutely want to put something in your cultural buildings, just buy those great works from AI for gold. When you get spies, send them on gold stealing missions and keep buying.
TS are very much ok as they are now.

 

[UWHabs]

Well, great. Maybe the thread can get back on-topic now.


Like I've said, imbalance is only an issue if it's from something too common. The entertainment complex pairing that keeps getting suggested is too easy of a bonus. It would need to be something more situational and likely map-dependent.

As has been also stated more than once is that there are plenty of ways to rack up culture, and by that very logic having a few +3 or +4 TS's on a map that aren't reliant on Wonders would hardly upset balance. What would do is draw TS's into the city-planning game from the periphery where it hangs out now. It's not so much about more culture, just more variety in sourcing it.

It depends on what kind of rebalance they would get. If you added them a standard bonus like, say, Australia gets, where you can routinely get a ton of +3 or +4 TS, then yeah, that's probably going a little too far.

If you're just adding +1 for an entertainment complex, or like 1/2 per plantation, that's certainly not going to unbalance the game. IMO, some of those other cultural yields can be too much - Nan Madol on a coastal map can give you a pretty insane amount of culture that it could easily be cut in half and still be a strong suzerain bonus. Kumasi as well can really power your entire empire's culture in the right setup.

I'd be totally in favour of reducing the amount of culture from those other sources, and increasing the yields directly on theatres, although the other part of me does like that I can play a game without building any or many theatres and not fall too far behind culturally. Sure, they end up mostly as a filler district for me, where I place them to try to get a triangle for my campus or more commonly end up packing them near the government plaza, that's not the worst thing in the world. It probably wouldn't hurt if there were map features that impacted them, to at least give me something else to think of. Even if they were just naturally given a full +1 per adjacent district (+2 per wonder), then they're still a mostly filler district, but it would make sure you do end up trying to pack them in to middle of your city.

 

[Revanchist]

The problem with theater squares, and I don’t know if this has already been stated previously in this thread, is that it’s hard to get good bonuses without putting in a lot of productions via wonders. The reason why civs with bonuses towards theater districts like greece are so strong is because they change the way you get these yields - it’s a lot easier.

I think that changing the bonus for wonders to +1 is fine, but there needs to be another consistent bonus. Giving the minor or major adjacency bonus to entertainment districts is a great idea I support, and not only makes them much more viable, but also would give me more of a kick during my city planning. I may be going out on a limb here, but perhaps great entertainers/entrepreneurs with unique bonuses could also be given to entertainment districts in the future to incentivize placing them down.

 

[steveg700]

It's kind of okay, if you are not going for a CV, to have theater squares forced to the margins of your planning. After all, if you could exploit the already overpowered science/production track AND get your culture going strong, that would be having your cake and eating it too.

Consider that for a lot of people, Civ is about the journey, not the destination. And when I say "a lot", I mean people who actually finish a game of Civ VI are the outliers. Some people find city-planning to be more appealing than driving rock bands around the map to generate 75% of the tourism in the rear end of the game.

The problem with theater squares, and I don’t know if this has already been stated previously in this thread, is that it’s hard to get good bonuses without putting in a lot of productions via wonders. The reason why civs with bonuses towards theater districts like greece are so strong is because they change the way you get these yields - it’s a lot easier.

Yeah, it's been stated.

My idea was to have tribal villages leave some terrain feature behind once explored. Steles or obelisks or totem poles, etc. So, something that varies map-top-map and does't create a consistent exploit. The consistency component is important, because it's actually a good thing when you can occasionally find a broken combo in a given game.

 

[SammyKhalifa]

It's kind of okay, if you are not going for a CV, to have theater squares forced to the margins of your planning. After all, if you could exploit the already overpowered science/production track AND get your culture going strong, that would be having your cake and eating it too.

But the game should be about choices, and picking between Campus and Theaters (which provide VERY similar types of currency) is not a decision at all 90% of the time. The overpowered science/production as you say would not be overpowered if they weren't the no-brainer first builds.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I think a logical adjacency bonus for the theater square would be to make it gain maybe +2 culture from being adjacent to the city center.
I would think realistically being next to the cultural sites in the city like a palace, monument etc. would entice more people to visit the theaters and museums if they were close enough.
Then the Acropolis could be plus +4.

 

[acluewithout]

Is there some argument here that elevates this above supposition?

The existing mechanics suggest to me that the various Districts are intended to be asymmetrical, including with respect to adjacencies. eg seems intentional design that TS are harder to get adjacencies for as compared to Campuses, given the game as built has less / more difficult adjacencies for TS and then also provides other sources of Culture eg Monuments, Pantheons, and the game as built has lots of adjacencies for Campuses but provides more limited additional sources of Science for players. But, sure, I don’t have any evidence beyond. It’s a Hypothesis.

I don’t agree with your other points, but you’re welcome to your views.

snip

ECs giving +1 to TS is growing on me. I doubt that would come up all that option or be particularly possible.

Yeah that's a good point. Maybe this thread should be "do campuses and industrial zones need a nerf" And my answer is yes.

Jesus, don’t nerf IZs. It took forever to get them even that good.

But Campuses could certainly use a nerf, along with Rationalism getting some tweaks.

But the game should be about choices, and picking between Campus and Theaters (which provide VERY similar types of currency) is not a decision at all 90% of the time. The overpowered science/production as you say would not be overpowered if they weren't the no-brainer first builds.

I think there’s more choice than your giving credit for. There are good strategies that focus on building early TS, not to win CV but to push economy. But, yes, Campuses are very powerful, and does seem to crowd out other choices if you’re focused on playing optimally.

 

[The Civs 6]

The existing mechanics suggest to me that the various Districts are intended to be asymmetrical, including with respect to adjacencies. eg seems intentional design that TS are harder to get adjacencies for as compared to Campuses, given the game as built has less / more difficult adjacencies for TS and then also provides other sources of Culture eg Monuments, Pantheons, and the game as built has lots of adjacencies for Campuses but provides more limited additional sources of Science for players. But, sure, I don’t have any evidence beyond. It’s a Hypothesis.

I don’t agree with your other points, but you’re welcome to your views.



ECs giving +1 to TS is growing on me. I doubt that would come up all that option or be particularly possible.



Jesus, don’t nerf IZs. It took forever to get them even that good.

But Campuses could certainly use a nerf, along with Rationalism getting some tweaks.



I think there’s more choice than your giving credit for. There are good strategies that focus on building early TS, not to win CV but to push economy. But, yes, Campuses are very powerful, and does seem to crowd out other choices if you’re focused on playing optimally.

On a basic level it seems to me that when you go the science track, you can play with gold, science and hammers. You also seem to maximize your trade routes and military power. When you go culture, you only have faith and culture. If you develop it, faith is actually a really good currency to have. You also get access to the governments. But the tier 2 governments are just not that great, and they come so late. Culture gets you nice buffs - but the ones you get with guilds, recorded history, etc. mostly benefit the other track.

An additional problem to me is that science in the mid game unlocks key wonders like the forbidden city and kilwa - but mid game culture unlocks very nice to have, luxury wonders like Chichen Itza, but not necessarily ones that really boost your game. I know this goes against the collective wisdom that the mid game civics are key, but I think that has two caveats: 1) they mean the rather early civics like pol phil, defense, and feudalism; and 2) they mean for non-cultural play styles. If anything, there's nothing I love for a cultural win, other than rock bands/naturalists, until you get to digital democracy...

I don't think there is a single correct solution. Perhaps they should consider hiding some units and buildings in the culture tech tree, or perhaps have them require both a tech and a civic. Or perhaps culture should help you expand a bit, or enable you to play tall.

 

[Ivan Hunger]

I think we're trying to fix the wrong problem. Instead of changing how Theater Squares work, we should be changing how difficulty scaling works.

The way difficulty scaling currently works is that AIs are given strong yield bonuses that remain consistent throughout the entire game. This makes the early game extremely punishing, but that disadvantage lessens as the human player snowballs.

If the AIs instead received small yield bonuses that increased exponentially throughout the game, it would open up a lot of new early game strategies while still maintaining a challenge for the human player. It would give the player more opportunities to build early game wonders without chopping, which in turn would give them better Theater Square locations. It would also make founding a religion a more viable strategy on higher difficulties.

 

[MrRadar]

Yeah that's a good point. Maybe this thread should be "do campuses and industrial zones need a nerf" And my answer is yes.

And my answer is 'yes' to the first, and 'no way' to the second.

Jesus, don’t nerf IZs. It took forever to get them even that good.

But Campuses could certainly use a nerf, along with Rationalism getting some tweaks.

So very true.

IZs require loads of production to be poured into aqueducts, dams, canals and builders first, so that they get that great adjacency. You must sacrifice so much first and the remaining time frame to enjoy that production awesomeness may not be very long. They are barely viable.

But campus adjacency can give you lots of science with minimal effors and very early. Mountain adjacency coupled with Natural Philosophy is just nuts. Campus adjacency could probably be switched on or enhanced in stages, after having built libraries and unis. It is too much science and too easy early on.

 

[Bibor]

Two points here: one, campuses. Some spawns have neither mountains or reefs. Having merely 2-3 campuses higher than +2 kinda push maps like these out of a decent space race.

Two, Theater squares. +1 from commercial hub/harbor and entertainment complex would make more sense but okay.
The thing is, culture is far easier to come by than science. Pantheons for pastures or plantations can yield a lot. monuments, colosseum etc.

 

[Timberdoodle]

Having to build wonders to get a good Theater Square adjacency is something I enjoy, I like that it requires a fair bit of planning ahead of time and that it doesn't come so easy. I also agree with the notion that Campuses could use a little bit of a nerf, rather than buff Theater Squares.

That said, I'll admit that they are one of the few districts that don't get any bonuses from the map. How would people feel about giving them a small culture bonus based on appeal? I'm biased though, as I really enjoy making the most of the appeal game where I can, and I feel it doesn't interact with many of the game systems.