Do we descend from Neanderthal ?

[Pangur Bán]

Originally posted by DreadCthulhu


But there IS VERY strong evidence that humans are genetically undiverse. If humans did intermix with other hominids to any significant degree, and the offspring were fertile, blended into the human population, then you would expect there to be a LOT more genetic diversity in the human race.

If it is true that "a single tribe of a couple dozen chimpanzess has more genetic diversity than the entire human race" then you have to seriously doubt the significance of this for humans. And how much genetic difference is there between a late south asian homo erectus and a modern, non-mongoloid inhabitant of southern Asia? Skeletal differences between eskimos and western African "negroes" are larger than the differences between those two above. What reason do we have to suppose then that eskimos have more in common with west africans genetically than then do with pre-homo sapien sapien inhabitants of northern Asia?

Originally posted by DreadCthulhu

Currently, we don't know directly if early homo sapiens did or did not attempt to interbreed with other hominids, or if such a union could produce fertile offspring. But even if they did produce fertile children, said children had little or no effect on current human's genetic makeup.

Of course they did. I seriously doubt the "explosion" aspects of theories of human origin. I'm inclined to think that peoples all over the world were constantly evolving locally and constantly mixing, rather that some every-25,000s volkerwanderung, which looks suspiciously old-fashioned (C/f early modern theories about the racial connections with language). That kind of theory is the product of relying on the kind of poorly contexted archaeological evidence that I was attacking above.

Pre-historians simply don't have the evidence to construct any great theory like the "out-of-africa" theory. While that remains the case, I will stick to the view that makes the most sense. The out-of-africa theory isn't really a theory; like I said above, it is merely a suggestion.

 

[Pangur Bán]

Originally posted by Kafka2


There are quite a few respectable theories that support this premise. The Catastrophe theorists have gone so far as to link it with a definite event- the eruption of the Toba "Supervolcano" in what is now Sumatra.

And that, I'm afraid, is pretty typical of their suggestions. Maybe it's correct, maybe it isn't. But the combined resources of all modern civilizations cannot prove it either way.

 

[RagingBarbarian]

Originally posted by Julien


Of course, but that's not the point ! Neanderthal could have been progressively pushed back North by other hominids. If you had the slightest knowledge of ethnological history, you should know that modern Europeans descend mainly from the Aryans living around the Black Sea (Ukraine, Caucasus...) around 5000 BCE. Among these were different tribes which evolved into the Celts, Germanics, Latins, Greeks and Slavs. Another group of Aryans invade what is now Iran, Pakistan, India and Banglasdesh, and mixed with the locals (some high-caste Indians nowadays still have white skin and blue-grey eyes, as they didn't mix with the local Dravidians at all).

Celts were living in most of what is now Britain, France, Belgium Southern Germany, Austria, Switzerland, Northern Italy and Spain.
They were however pushed century after century to the Western edge of Europe to Ireland, Scotland, Wales, little Britanny (in France) and North-West Spain (Galicia, Asturias...). As Aryans invaded Europe from the East, there is a chance that a remaining group of Neanderthal (or mixed Sapiens-Neanderthal) was pushed up to Northern Scandinavia (Lapons, or even legendary Trolls ?).

You forgot to mention the aryans in Armenia, Armenia was a major part of the caucasus. I have dark blond hair, but this isn't a discussion on Aryan History.
There could be very limited mixing, because Homo Sapians and Neanderthals can produce children, however these children might have been sterile. If there was Neanderthal DNA in modern humans it is probably very small, as to almost be undedectable.

 

[Margim]

I chose other 'they are all theories - and we don't actually know for sure'. The fact is, no one alive knows the facts, and seeing as I'm not all that scientifically knowlegable, this is what I'm stick'n with.

Or perhaps we all descended from aliens.

 

[Zardnaar]

My girlfriend thinks I'm a caveman. Does that count?

Anyway it seems odd that the Neanderthal died out. Maybe there weren't many of them in the 1st place. They either died out naturally, interbred, or perhaps were victims of an ancient genocide. Theres to many unknowns methinks. And religous types love to pick holes in the unknowns. Although theres been all these skelitons found we can ignore them because the Bible says differently.

 

[RagingBarbarian]

they died out because they couldn't compete with the more advanced Homo Sapaians, who now were competing for the same territory and food. Using more advanced technology our anscestors were able to dominate the former Neanthratal world. the interbreeding theory is also questionable, because Neanthratals and Homo sapians are a different species, any child consived would most likely be sterile. I don't think that there was an active intention by the homo sapians to kill all Neanthratals, as I've said before they simply couldn'y compete.

 

[Sims2789]

Neanderthals were an offshoot of humans(or maybe one of our pre-human ancestors). however, i believe that humans and Neanderthals could reproduce but the offspring would be sterile(like mules), since there have been bones found of babies that appear to be mixed.

 

[Tathlum]

Such as the four year old girl found at the Lagar Velho site in Portugal? Any genetics traits we gained from mixing with neanderthals have in all likelyhood regressed so far as to be non existant now.

Pity. I must admit I find something romatic about the idea of being descended from 2 types of Human.

I guess XIII didn't kill the thread afterall...

EDIT

Same for the Celts - unsure if it's more of a cultural grouping, than of a single race of people.

We're not one race but a cultural/linguistic group. I have more genetic similarity to the indigenous people who built newgrange than to the blonde haired warriors who fought Rome. Celtic culture dominated Ireland not Celtic Genes. And we still see ourselves as Celts today.

 

[Achinz]

Originally posted by Julien
That's a long time I haven't visited the forum, I admit...

Great to see a familiar name after all this time - those were the good old days of history quizes: French and Indian cultural history!

Until I digest the current news posted by XIII (looks like I'm celebrating his past handle with my avatar), I'd just say that my impression from documentaries has been that Neanderthal was less adapted to the extant environment than Homo s. and was competed out.

 

[The Outsider]

"And God said, 'Let us make man in our image'."
No Monkeys involved. This honestly makes me sad to believe that so many people believe a theory that has no hard evidence.

 

[Evie]

As opposed to believing in a "theory" (or suggestion, using Calgacusian) for which the only evidence is a book written by men who had little scientifical understanding of the world 2500 years ago?

There is scientific evidence for Evolution (skeletons, direct observation of genetic changes occuring in certain species, etc). There is none for God making us all instantaneously.

 

[The Outsider]

Originally posted by Oda Nobunaga
As opposed to believing in a "theory" (or suggestion, using Calgacusian) for which the only evidence is a book written by men who had little scientifical understanding of the world 2500 years ago?

There is scientific evidence for Evolution (skeletons, direct observation of genetic changes occuring in certain species, etc). There is none for God making us all instantaneously.

Show me proof. And then I'll show you mine.

 

[Julien]

Sorry for reviving this old topic. I found some interesting data on the subject that kind of proves that modern Europeans did indeed inherit some genes from Neanderthal.

Check this page. There are many references towards the bottom.

 

[GuitarHero]

I guess some people have Neanderthal ancestors. Don't care, though.

 

[Knight-Dragon]

Hey Julien, no time no see.

 

[Plotinus]

Sounds interesting. I must admit I'm not convinced by the article Knight-Dragon posted in post 3, at least as evidence for the question; the fact that X and Y are different species doesn't prove that X didn't descend from Y. After all, Homo sapiens evolved from something that was a distinct species; the question is whether Homo neanderthalis was involved in the lineage at any point.

 

[Archbob]

No, there was no Mitochondrial drift between the two species.

 

[Knight-Dragon]

Sounds interesting. I must admit I'm not convinced by the article Knight-Dragon posted in post 3, at least as evidence for the question; the fact that X and Y are different species doesn't prove that X didn't descend from Y. After all, Homo sapiens evolved from something that was a distinct species; the question is whether Homo neanderthalis was involved in the lineage at any point.

That post was made four years ago...

I am sure there have been more studies since then. No idea if it has been proved conclusively though, one way or the other...

 

[Plotinus]

I know! Just commenting since it's been resurrected.

 

[Julien]

Hey Julien, no time no see.

Hey ! I see you have gone up in the hierarchy and your number of posts skyrocketed !