Do you believe in a god?

[AlpsStranger]

Maybe, but a black nothingness seems much less inviting to me than the God of the New Testament.

I didn't exist for millions of years and I don't remember it being particularly painful.

It is sad, though. I can understand the temptation of believing in an afterlife.

Problem is that every "revealed" God is some kind of insane tyrant who plans to rotisserie 90% of humanity on a spit for billions of years. How is that comforting to me even if I were in the 10% somehow?

But hey, if there really is a non-insane God ruling the cosmos I'd love to meet him one day. I just tend to think it'll either be no God or the version Fred Phelps worships.

Sadly, the gentle and enlightened versions of God are all the product of sophistry and wishful thinking. The texts paint a darker picture by miles.

 

[Meteor Man]

Maybe you just don't remember it.

 

[El_Machinae]

It's confusing, but we have to remember that it's not supposed to make sense. It just is.

"Supposed"? As in "designed to be, intentionally"?

Who determined, and designed, the concept such that it's not 'supposed' to make sense?

 

[History_Buff]

You hand out lectures about childish behavior and you're blaming me for yours?

I just explained your flaw twice, its a simple matter of chronology - we have no reason to confuse you and your monster with a prime mover responsible for existence.

You never really explained it at all, you just started taking jabs and assumed I knew what you were talking about.

As I know see it, you're arguing that I must be wrong since clearly the FSM did not create the universe, thus someone else's God must have done so. I dispute your per-supposition that anyone had to create the Universe.

I have heard it said that there are no atheists in fox holes.

As warpus(?) said, there are only athiests in foxholes. If God was on your side, protecting his holy warriors from harm, what need would you have for foxholes?

Maybe, but a black nothingness seems much less inviting to me than the God of the New Testament.

Well, to me anyway, I don't think there's any reason that you'd experience black nothingness after death, since you wouldn't experience anything. Your brain would cease to function, and then perception stops. No eternity, just a final and complete end.

Just pointing this out here: If there were evidence for God, there would be no room for faith. And since most of Christianity depends on faith, most of Christianity therefore depends on the LACK of evidence for God.

I suppose this makes a lot of sense. Which to me is kind of saddening; it's not a comforting thought to think that so many people believe just because they want it to be true.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Maybe, but a black nothingness seems much less inviting to me than the God of the New Testament.

I don't know about you guys, but I can endure a while in purgatory before living forever in Heaven.

It's a soothing thought, actually.

I'm too small minded to realise the consequences of eternal bliss. I cannot imagine what this Heaven would be like. As it is, it's just a name for something unknown.

Eternity in itself scares the crap out of me. Even blissful eternity.

 

[Borachio]

Very true , if you're IN the foxhole, you don't really believe

I'll remind you of this next time you and I share a foxhole.

I agree... However, you can bring a horse to water, as they say.

Some people can be shown evidence of things, and still opt not to believe it (including Christians who deny the world is older than 10,000 years old or whatever).

Since the horse is wise, she will drink when she is thirsty and knows the water is pure.

The NT is full of water imagery IIRC. I love it.

Mortality is far less frightening than the God of the Old Testament.

I mean that sincerely.

That old humbug, he doesn't frighten me.

Maybe, but a black nothingness seems much less inviting to me than the God of the New Testament.

I don't know about you guys, but I can endure a while in purgatory before living forever in Heaven.

It's a soothing thought, actually.

However, I suppose if your God is more of a fire and brimstone type, then I can see the hesitation.



It's confusing, but we have to remember that it's not supposed to make sense. It just is. Just like a person has more than one flavor of their personality.
edit: of course, this is my interpretation and my religion. so #justsayin

Purgatory, brimstone. Bring them on! What's not to like?

I think, if it's supposed to make anything, it is supposed to make sense. Humans beings are pattern seekers, aren't they?

Unless you have links to research papers done on the subject I will have to dismiss all of it as conjecture.



Great!

I have a method that works, the scientific method, which uses rational thought, reason, evidence, and so on. It has been proven to work.

Your method of "some form of" something sounds like it's still under construction. Once you have figured out exactly what this method is, and once it's been proven to work, we'll use it.

Until then, let's stick with my method, which works

I'm all in favour of the scientific method. I'd like to see a bit more rational thought and reason going on. But also a bit more compassion too.

Problem is that every "revealed" God is some kind of insane tyrant who plans to rotisserie 90% of humanity on a spit for billions of years. How is that comforting to me even if I were in the 10% somehow?

This revelation of a maniac God of course might not be true.

"Supposed"? As in "designed to be, intentionally"?

Who determined, and designed, the concept such that it's not 'supposed' to make sense?

Doesn't make sense to me, either.

As warpus(?) said, there are only athiests in foxholes. If God was on your side, protecting his holy warriors from harm, what need would you have for foxholes? ;

This foxhole is getting crowded.

Well, to me anyway, I don't think there's any reason that you'd experience black nothingness after death, since you wouldn't experience anything. Your brain would cease to function, and then perception stops. No eternity, just a final and complete end.

Yup, this is certainly a possibility.

I suppose this makes a lot of sense. Which to me is kind of saddening; it's not a comforting thought to think that so many people believe just because they want it to be true.

Unless it's a self-fulfilling prophecy? (I'm not saying it is though.)

I'm too small minded to realise the consequences of eternal bliss. I cannot imagine what this Heaven would be like. As it is, it's just a name for something unknown.

Eternity in itself scares the crap out of me. Even blissful eternity.

But what exactly is "eternity"? I take it most people think it just means forever, but doesn't it mean literally "out of time". So might it be timelessness? Or in a different time-direction? (As you see, I haven't a clue what I'm talking about.)

 

[Meteor Man]

I think, if it's supposed to make anything, it is supposed to make sense. Humans beings are pattern seekers, aren't they?

Well, it makes sense to me. 3 in one is fine. As far as I'm concerned, God can do whatever he wants.

As warpus(?) said, there are only athiests in foxholes. If God was on your side, protecting his holy warriors from harm, what need would you have for foxholes?

God doesn't interfere on human affairs. He's not literally "on our side." A bullet is a bullet.

 

[History_Buff]

God doesn't interfere on human affairs. He's not literally "on our side." A bullet is a bullet.

Well, this might then get into a deeper theological discussion than I really want to, but if God doesn't interfere in human affairs, is there any point to prayer?

Prayer requiring the 'involvement' of a deity part of course; clearly self reflection and group chanting have their uses, secular or religious.

 

[Meteor Man]

Well, this might then get into a deeper theological discussion than I really want to, but if God doesn't interfere in human affairs, is there any point to prayer?

Prayer requiring the 'involvement' of a deity part of course; clearly self reflection and group chanting have their uses, secular or religious.

It would seem that way, right?

But humans are funny people (pun intended). We pray because we hope that what we want is God's will. But that's not even the point of prayer.
People think that the point of prayer is to ask for something you want, which is not the case. The point of prayer is to converse with God in your heart in order to grow closer to him.

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

Unless you have links to research papers done on the subject I will have to dismiss all of it as conjecture.

Well thats just my point of view I dont know about any research since I practise yoga I dont study psychology.

I have a method that works, the scientific method, which uses rational thought, reason, evidence, and so on. It has been proven to work.

The question is how effective this method is in relation to our subject: God existence.
physical science says to us that it doesnt have a clue about it...

non-physical science is just a baby, we dont know if it will grow up and become and adult although the possibility is great...

metaphysics says that it is up to something it is in touch with vast unknown worlds and it can even envision the unknowable.

spirituality tells us that it knows about Gods existence for milleniums since it uses the short cut of short cuts: faith and conscious aspiration

Until then, let's stick with my method, which works

The limitation of physical science will never allow it to know the whole truth, I am afraid.

Seeing how brain damage directly influences consciousness makes it hard to support the idea that consciousness is not related to the material.

Where did I ever said that. Matter is product of consciousness.

This might make Gorakshanat happy:

Thx. It seems genuine...

Your seemings are silly.

Not at all. I still claim that perfect God is omnipotent and omnipotence is Gods perfection.

 

[Borachio]

Well, this might then get into a deeper theological discussion than I really want to, but if God doesn't interfere in human affairs, is there any point to prayer?

Prayer requiring the 'involvement' of a deity part of course; clearly self reflection and group chanting have their uses, secular or religious.

Exactly! I've never really seen the point of it. I've always presumed she (when I've thought there was a she) was part of me, and knew more about what was going on than I did.

 

[Borachio]

Matter is product of consciousness.

Really? I always thought it was the other way round. But I suppose either will do.

 

[Meteor Man]

Really? I always thought it was the other way round. But I suppose either will do.

I suppose so, actually. This is getting way too philosophical.

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

Really? I always thought it was the other way round. But I suppose either will do.

There is no way the inferior creates the superior.

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

I suppose so, actually. This is getting way too philosophical.

In order for creation to become possible God had to turn part of himself into its opposite: Matter. The Spirit is involved in Matter. What we are witnessing is evolution of Spirit through Matter, Life and Mind into still father superior manifestation...But thats possible only becouse all the possibilities are already present inside the Matter.

 

[Meteor Man]

Pretty sure the spirit is not matter.

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

Pretty sure the spirit is not matter.

why so? matter is unconscious only seemingly...
Edit: to be more precise Spirit is present in Matter in inert form

 

[Akka]

Where did I ever said that. Matter is product of consciousness.

Hello, let me repeat it :
"brain damages affects consciousness"
As such, it's matter that influence consciousness, not the other way around. That's... hard to believe you actually genuinely inverted them...

 

[AlpsStranger]

<Snip>

 

[El_Machinae]

It would seem that way, right?

But humans are funny people (pun intended). We pray because we hope that what we want is God's will. But that's not even the point of prayer.
People think that the point of prayer is to ask for something you want, which is not the case. The point of prayer is to converse with God in your heart in order to grow closer to him.

Again, this is reasonable, but it's a modern interpretation. In the passages where Jesus teaches "the Lord's prayer" (Luke 11, Matthew 6), it's fairly clear that he's instructing people to pray for material benefits.