Do you like fantasy novels?

[Terxpahseyton]

First, I will have to say that I find many fantasy novels to be rather lacking in quality. But then, I will have to say that I find many novels to be rather lacking in quality. While some are out there which are - IMO - great. But most are only partially great, though in instances so great in those parts that it is worth all the flaws. And I have so far not read a fantasy novel which entirely convinced me.

But be it all as it may be - I still am in love with the genre of fantasy. I just love the vast possibilities of it as well as the kinda comfy mysticism of it, a welcome change to the sober soulless chaotic direction-less world we live in.

A pig part of it is probably that, after my mother tempted me to give Harry Potter a try, not high fantasy but still fantasy, the second novel I ever read was Lord of the Rings. And it just amazed me at the time (happened before the movies - not a hipster ), even though the writing is IMO rather bad.

Since some time now, I am ... well not obsessed, since I actually have little time to engage in it (also because I keep waisting time on OT), but rather fascinated by the idea of mine of writing a fantasy novel I actually would call great all-through out.

For that effort, I am continuously engaging in short story endeavors and contests and am reading a lot of books making notes of what I like or dislike, creating vast lists of ideas, writing guidelines etcetera.. Alright it is a bit of an obsession. But it gives me so much and takes actually very little. Not the least thanks to audio books. Just fantastic how much more literature one can enjoy thanks to those. I am only saying this so to not appear as the typical amateur writer not actually following through on the ambition, but now I feel I only seem even more weird.. Well so be it. I still find myself pretty cool

Anyway, I am also kind of embarrassed with my passion for fantasy. Truly good literature never is fantasy, I had to find out. And I enjoy truly good literature increasingly more than fantasy. Still, I love fantasy. And I dream of a fantasy novel that does not have to hide from anything, that combines high fantasy with high literature.

As a consequence of that insecurity, I wondered what the people of OT think about fantasy.

Fire away!

 

[Sommerswerd]

The big names I can go with... LOTRs is awesome, Harry Potter, awesome, Warcraft... awesome, you know... I think Narnia was decent too, I am a little embarrassed to admit

But then all that Vampire crap, and Angel/Demon crap (I'm looking at you "Supernatural"), and hybrids... Usually involving Witches ("Charmed" "The Craft" etc)... Ugh Twighlight

I did like "Underworld" though... And what does "Riddick" count as? Fantasy or Sci-Fi?

It's funny because I am obviously a cult Fantasy geek kinda guy... just look at my username ... But I guess I've become more of a Fantasy pedestrian/snob in my old age.

 

[jackelgull]

I think good fantasy is harder to create than good realistic fiction (which most high literature is). Fantasy, by its nature allows alot of freedom. The writer is essentially God creating a new world from scratch, one that never existed before. However, this freedom also imposes some new burdens. Fiction in a realistic setting tries to portray human emotions and conflicts realistically. Fantasy must take those same conflicts and translate them into a new setting, suited for that setting, while still feeling genuine. The author must also understand how much to reveal, how much to keep a mystery.

And Terx, have you read Walter Moers yet? Particularly City of Dreaming Books? His fantasy is something I think you'll enjoy.

And I love fantasy. In case you didn't get that.

 

[Evie]

Fantasy, ultimately, is about two simple words : What if?

What if elves existed? (Middle Earth)
What if there was a boarding school for wizards? (Potter)
What if the Greek Gods and Goddesses still existed and still had mortal children? (Riordan's universe)
What if there was a detective investigating crimes comitted by the folkloric underside of society? (Dresden files)
What if Napoleonic war had been fought with literal dragons? (Téméraire)

From that one question, you build a world. Elves had their language. Elves had their history. Elves had their world. What was it like?
IF there's a boarding school for wizard, doesn't that imply a government? A society that exist around it? What are they like? If there's a government, are there laws? You build the world around that central premise, and MUCH of the point of fantasy is exploring that world along with your readers.
Etc, etc.

If you don't start like that, you just end up with story that's fantasy...for the sake of being fantasy. Fantasy that's fantasy not because it asks "What if?", but instead just use whatever fantastic element are there as an excuse for the plot and character to happen, or to fill a kitchen list of characters and tropes that need to appear (see pretty much all Tolkien-derivative works). Or sometime shove them to the edge of the map only appearing in this or that occasional subplot so they don't get in the way of the characters and the Serious Business plot.

None of these are really fantasy - they're more pale imitations of fantasy (that means Dungeons and Dragons), or political drama masquerading as fantasy. (Seriously, just because you put a dragon in the background of House of Cards doesn't suddenly make House of Cards a fantasy story*)

*This means Game of Thrones

 

[abradley]

Do I like fantasy novels, yes.

Got started on fantasy tales long ago with radio programs like https://archive.org/details/Lets_Pretend

That had a weekly 'Fairy Tale', IMO child's fantasy.

The 'Lord of the Rings' blew me away.

Don't forget Conan, that's pure he male fantasy. Recently had cataracts removed in both eyes and couldn't use my eyes for long reading or watching so went to https://archive.org/details/audio_b...nd[]=subject:"Fantasy"&sort=-downloads&page=2 and downloaded a bunch of books/stories to my Android.
If your into Conan try https://archive.org/details/red_nails_1006_librivox Great stuff.

Plus there's my fantasy gaming via Morrowind and AD&D computer games.

 

[Smellincoffee]

Very rarely. I have an appropriate respect for LOTR, enjoyed Narnia, and count Harry Potter as some of my very favorite fiction. Otherwise..

 

[cybrxkhan]

I wish I did. I don't hate them either, though.

LotR was one of my biggest influences as a writer. I came across it when I was probably in elementary school or early Middle school, and though I was too young to understand much of it, the immense amount of worldbuilding Tolkien put into his worlds impressed me. I am not the first writer or worldbuilder, I think, who has been inspired by and got into the world of creativity because of Tolkien.

I think good fantasy is harder to create than good realistic fiction (which most high literature is). Fantasy, by its nature allows alot of freedom. The writer is essentially God creating a new world from scratch, one that never existed before. However, this freedom also imposes some new burdens. Fiction in a realistic setting tries to portray human emotions and conflicts realistically. Fantasy must take those same conflicts and translate them into a new setting, suited for that setting, while still feeling genuine. The author must also understand how much to reveal, how much to keep a mystery.

This is such a good point that a lot of fantasy writers, etc. forget. Just because it's fantasy doesn't mean "you can do anything you want." I've heard people basically argue that because "you can do anything you want" that writers should insert things like LGBT relationships, or gender equality, or democratic ideals, and so on into their worlds. Certainly you can do that, but you have to do it in a way that doesn't seem like you just jarringly placed it just to placate modern sensibilities. Truly great fantasy, in my opinion, requires intimate knowledge of the humanities and social sciences, to know how to make all the elements of the imaginary societies work in a way that makes sense. Tolkien, after all, began - and was, indeed, for much of his life - a scholar specializing in linguistics and mythology.

For me, that's why a lot of my fantasy-ish writing draws heavy parallels with history, because I think it's easier to make it feel genuine that way.

Fantasy, ultimately, is about two simple words : What if?

Nice way of putting it!

 

[gay_Aleks]

None of these are really fantasy - they're more pale imitations of fantasy (that means Dungeons and Dragons), or political drama masquerading as fantasy. (Seriously, just because you put a dragon in the background of House of Cards doesn't suddenly make House of Cards a fantasy story*)

*This means Game of Thrones

Seems like nobody's minding a House of Cards set into sort-of-a fantasy series (that is, Game of Thrones).

Anyway, on the What-If-Fantasy, my favourite book is Wheel Of Time (which, despite what anyone says, IS better than Game of Thrones. But let's take that away.). In it, the history of the realm is repetitive and endless fight of Good against Evil. There's also some other things but describing 9 books on CFC will most likely drive me mad.

 

[jackelgull]

For me, that's why a lot of my fantasy-ish writing draws heavy parallels with history, because I think it's easier to make it feel genuine that way.

I do that too, but I dislike it when I do that because it feels like I'm kind of cheating.

After reading Walter Moers, I've realized how much fantasy, like no holds barred, surreal fantasy, does it for me.

A city entirely devoted to the publishing of books? Books that can literally kill? A man whose blood is made of ink, with skin of paper? Bookhunters that murder each other in catacombs for priceless books to sell to greedy collectors? Yes please. The author also makes the explanations and the world seem so logical even if it is so different from mine.

 

[Evie]

Seems like nobody's minding a House of Cards set into sort-of-a fantasy series (that is, Game of Thrones).

Oh, definitely. People can *like* that sort of thing and it can make for very good stories. Game of Throne is a combination of amazing worldbuilding (all the houses and whatnot), an intriguing (at least in the early book) plots and a solid dose of darker and edgier - that makes for a book that's bound to be popular, and for good reasons (the unhealthy dose of cynicism helps popularity, but for bad reasons).

It's just not a very good example of the nature of fantasy. There's no central worldbuilding premise to explore other than "Humans are jerks" (and that's not actually, you know, a *fantasy* premise - it's a cynical take on real world), just a world that is essentially our own with the serial numbers filed off, and a sprinkling of fantasy elements thrown in as far away from the plot as they can be.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Good ones, yes. Bad ones, no. Much like anything else.

 

[gay_Aleks]

Oh, definitely. People can *like* that sort of thing and it can make for very good stories. Game of Throne is a combination of amazing worldbuilding (all the houses and whatnot), an intriguing (at least in the early book) plots and a solid dose of darker and edgier - that makes for a book that's bound to be popular, and for good reasons (the unhealthy dose of cynicism helps popularity, but for bad reasons).

It's just not a very good example of the nature of fantasy. There's no central worldbuilding premise to explore other than "Humans are jerks" (and that's not actually, you know, a *fantasy* premise - it's a cynical take on real world), just a world that is essentially our own with the serial numbers filed off, and a sprinkling of fantasy elements thrown in as far away from the plot as they can be.

So you'd prefer if GoT dropped the "fantasy" themes altogether?

 

[Evie]

The fantasy aspect probably helped draw people to the series at first, and helped it get recognition, and they don't *harm* the story, so not really.

My point is more that GoT is more political drama with certain fantasy elements than an actual fantasy novel. Much as Wheel of Time was at its heart a fantasy series (albeit in my mind not the best example thereof), with some elements of political drama (which, in this case, DID harm the series and should have been given less emphasis)

 

[gay_Aleks]

To be fair, I think that the fantasy elements drive some of the political drama. Like Daenerys with the dragons and the ice giants and the Wall and all that.

 

[Evie]

To some small degree, but the bulk of the plot has so far been largely insulated from those fantasy elements.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

The fantasy aspect probably helped draw people to the series at first, and helped it get recognition, and they don't *harm* the story, so not really.

My point is more that GoT is more political drama with certain fantasy elements than an actual fantasy novel. Much as Wheel of Time was at its heart a fantasy series (albeit in my mind not the best example thereof), with some elements of political drama (which, in this case, DID harm the series and should have been given less emphasis)

LOTR is political drama with certain fantasy elements. In that regard it seems the big difference is that the fantasy element "non human factions" seems to be left out of one but central to the other.

I think LOTR is vastly superior to GoT in almost every way, but I wouldn't say GoT is "less fantasy" just because it lacks that element.

 

[gay_Aleks]

I don't think it's fair to compare LoTR to GoT, as they do different things and aim for rather different audiences.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

I don't think it's fair to compare LoTR to GoT, as they do different things and aim for rather different audiences.

No doubt. It was just handy in terms of "fantasy elements present, yes/no" as a counter to Oda's position.

I generally don't compare GoT to anything, I just call it a blatant money grab of aimlessly wandering randomly forwarded plot lines designed to end only when the author no longer finds the rewards of pumping out yet another installment worthwhile. After the fourth book I decided I would not read any more until the series was designated as complete, and at that point I'd still consider carefully whether it was worth my time.

 

[sophie]

Meh, once in a while. I'm not a particularly voracious reader of fiction these days, and when I do read fiction it doesn't tend to be fantasy.

I still have a soft spot in my heart for Harry Potter though.

 

[Antilogic]

I used to read a few, particularly Salvatore's Forgotten Realms stories and a few Dragonlance-setting books. And I have a lot of respect for Tolkien and his world-building, I remember reading that book from the library in 8th grade*. That got me into D&D. Back in the day, man, 2nd edition was teh shizz although when 3rd came out everything made more sense because the rules were whack in 2nd.

However, I was more into Star Trek and Star Wars novels then. I always had one in my lunch box and I read them at lunch, sneaking food in class when the teachers were distracted. Probably have about 50 of each at my parents' house.



*We played a game in drama class way back when, kind of a combination of musical chairs and a word game. The oddball standing had to say something they never did and then every kid who did had to stand up and rush for a new chair, the odd guy out had to start the next round. I was the only kid who had read Lord of the Rings and that was the question asked, so I dutifully got up in front of thirty people and let the guy take my seat. Nobody else had read it.