Do you really feel that the US way is right?

[scorch]

Ok, before any of the mods get the wrong idea, this is NOT a US bashing thread, im just wondering some things.

Do you believe that the september 11 attacks were purely unjustified and were probably motivated because they were jealos of american sucsess etc?



Do you believe that America encourages free trading with anyone and everyone? (as long as it is not illegal ofcorse)



Do you believe that America didn't actually know that Agent Orange gave cancer and it was all a mistake?



Do you believe that the september 11 attacks was the worse loss of lives this decade, (ok, 1990 - now)? (by the question i mean that do you think that this is the most tragic thing that has happened?)


Do you believe that American broadcasters screen everything (important) to american citizens, and doesn't hold anything back? (sure i can understand not showing the messages from osama, excuse that example)


the end.

 

[joespaniel]

C'mon, Scorch. This is a troll if I ever saw one.

Nothing in this world is black & white like that. All of these questions are loaded, and you just had to throw in Agent Orange too, didnt you.

Im too tired this morning to debate.

 

[Lefty Scaevola]

"Do you believe that the september 11 attacks were purely unjustified and were probably motivated because they were jealos of american sucsess etc?"

yes they were unjustified, no to the motivation. The pricipla motivivation were power aggrandisment, the USA being an obstical against fudamentalist conquest in the region and they thought also it would help recruitment, and racial and religious bigotry.

"Do you believe that America encourages free trading with anyone and everyone? (as long as it is not illegal ofcorse)"

Although USA is a leading proponet and practicer of free trade, it like all others of these, carves out huge areas of execptions.

"Do you believe that America didn't actually know that Agent Orange gave cancer and it was all a mistake?"

Neither USA nor anyone esle knows this yet as adequate scientific evidence still has not found demonstatrating a such causation (which by this date is a godd indicia that it will never be so found). The USA government as a polical matter conceded medical coverage to anything that may have been related to it.

"Do you believe that the september 11 attacks was the worse loss of lives this decade, (ok, 1990 - now)? (by the question i mean that do you think that this is the most tragic thing that has happened?)"

Several tribal wars, civil wars, occupations, and oppresive regimes have created much more suffering and death, most of which comes from starvation and disease exacerbated by the conflicts and oppression.

"Do you believe that American broadcasters screen everything (important) to american citizens, and doesn't hold anything back? (sure i can understand not showing the messages from osama, excuse that example)"

I trust them about as far as I can throw them. I have on several occasion seen them deliberately mirepresent events, which I had witnessed, to suit their agendas. They average better that almost all foreign media scum.

 

[ApocalypseKurtz]

I'm sure everyone here knows me as being very liberal and extremely anti-Bush / anti-Republican. But as for the U.S.'s continued bombing of Afghanistan in response to the 9/11 attack, I really can't criticize the administration. I am very much against war; I think it is senseless for us to be killing each other. But based on the attack and how many of us it affected, I think the necessary action in this case is to retalliate against Afghanistan. And the best way to retalliate would be a fast, sustained bombing, in hopes of ending the war as soon as possible. I would certainly not want to be the one making the decisions right now, because I couldn't in my right mind be the one giving orders to kill people, while at the same time I couldn't NOT retalliate, based on what the public wants. In this world, right now, unfortunately the proper response to an attack like the one on 9/11 would be a violent one. I just think it's sad that with all the technology, and with all the progress we've made, we still live in a world with as much hatred as there is. We've been on this world for thousands of years, and STILL we have violent hatred for each other based on religion/race/nationality, etc.

 

[Dogberry]

on our normal human time-scale. Look how many democracies there were in 1945...1914. How many people were serfs, slaves, or bonded workers 2-3-400 ago. Progress is there & as long as the world does not descend into a new Dark Age, it will continue.

Dog

 

[RedWolf]

Originally posted by Dogberry
on our normal human time-scale. Look how many democracies there were in 1945...1914. How many people were serfs, slaves, or bonded workers 2-3-400 ago. Progress is there & as long as the world does not descend into a new Dark Age, it will continue.

Dog

Serfdom and slavery has disapeared in the western democracies... However it still very much exists in the rest of the world. And we are doing nothing to stop it.

We have made progress but this dosn't help those that through a "birth chance" were born in the third world.

If I set up a sweat shop in this country and paid people $1 a day to work in it for 17 hours in brutal unsafe conditions... and then beat them whenever their production levels fell below quotas... I would be charged with some kind of crime. It would be considered a "white slavery ring"

HOWEVER if Walmart inidirectly sets up a sweat shop in Guatemala and then buys clothes from them - ships them to North America.. and sells them with a 1000% markup... THAT is ok because it's a multinational corporation - and they're allowed to violate the human rights of foreign citizens - because those people's lives aren't as important or valuable as the lives of people here.

The CEO's of these companies should be in prison for crimes against humanity.

However we all know this isn't going to happen because cheap labour keeps our economy churning. When i hear CEO's and managers talk about "low cost labour markets" I feel like yelling and screaming - "you cold hearted bastard - that isn't just numbers on a page you're talking about... they're people... real people that sweat and bleed and die"

Never forget WHY serfdom and poverty has dissapeared in OUR country - Unions here have fought for workers rights for decades... Through labour strikes, riots, protests, and despite being branded "communists" they have slowly raised the standard of living here by forcing the corporations to pay their workers a decent livable wage. They are in fact the people's only way to fight back against the greed and curruption of capitalism.

Our governments and corporations have no interest in raising the standard of living in the rest of the world... if they did who would cheaply produce their widgets and trinkets for next to nothing? As people started to educate themselves they would start to organize as one - and realize that they're being taken advantage of... pretty soon labour unions would start to take hold. and THEN where would they be? Who would make their $100 running shoes for $0.05 an hour? maybe instead of costing them $30 per shoe it would start to cost them $35 per shoe? Just imagine all the money they would lose.

Heaven forbid the majority of the wealth would start to be controlled by the majority of the worlds population.

 

[amadeus]

That's the thing with you liberals -- we can't "interfere" in the Third World militarily because we'd be "invading" their so-called cultures, but when it comes to pottytraining some country that has a "coup of the week" special, it is America's fault that these countries are screwed up.

Did you ever consider that not all people in the Third World are good people, but corrupt crooks and drug dealers.

By the way, if you don't like Wal-Mart's prices on things - pay for them American-made...I don't think you'd mind the Guatemalan factories versus American factories.

 

[RedWolf]

Originally posted by rmsharpe
That's the thing with you liberals -- we can't "interfere" in the Third World militarily because we'd be "invading" their so-called cultures, but when it comes to pottytraining some country that has a "coup of the week" special, it is America's fault that these countries are screwed up.

Did you ever consider that not all people in the Third World are good people, but corrupt crooks and drug dealers.

By the way, if you don't like Wal-Mart's prices on things - pay for them American-made...I don't think you'd mind the Guatemalan factories versus American factories.

Ever try to buy western made stuff exclusively? It's very very hard. Everything you pick up is made in Pakistan, Tailand, Mexico, Bangledash or China. Why? It's far cheaper to make products elsewhere so the multinationals have closed down factories here and set up shop somewhere else. Can you say Nike.

If our governments cared they would tax the snot out of the greedy heartless ****s so that corporations couldn't do so.


Of course all the people in the third world aren't good people. Some of them are corrupt crooks. We have just as many of them here. It doesn't however by any means justify slave labour.

Right wingers just don't get it. Abusing, starving, injuring and enslaving people for a higher profit margin is just WRONG. If that makes me a whining liberal than so be it.

Thats why i laugh so hard when i hear people talk about "the free world". There is no free world until we stop this exploitation of the world's poor. Freedom includes all people not just those that by chance happen to be blessed with western citizenship.

 

[amadeus]

Originally posted by RedWolf


Ever try to buy western made stuff exclusively? It's very very hard. Everything you pick up is made in Pakistan, Tailand, Mexico, Bangledash or China. Why?

That's because we're (industrialized world) making technologically advanced products - cars, telephones, televisions, etc. China makes shoes because we make cars. If China made cars, there'd be no demand - because we already have them. Americans, though, simply don't want to make shoes.

Secondly, it's not our responsibility to be a watchdog for the rest of the world. China's government should be doing that, not us.

If our governments cared they would tax the snot out of the greedy heartless ****s so that corporations couldn't do so.

So people that have money are greedy? I think you'd find more corruption in small business than in big. You steal ten dollars, who cares, steal ten million, someone's going to notice.

Of course all the people in the third world aren't good people. Some of them are corrupt crooks. We have just as many of them here. It doesn't however by any means justify slave labour.

Look at the industrial revolution in America and the population boom of the early 20th century. Those people went through the same thing.

Right wingers just don't get it. Abusing, starving, injuring and enslaving people for a higher profit margin is just WRONG. If that makes me a whining liberal than so be it.

It is not wrong. It keeps them fed, and it keeps me from paying up the rear end for a pair of shoes. It's not my responsibility to keep tabs on what's going on there.

Also, nobody wants to intentionally hurt their labor, it is bad for business.

Thats why i laugh so hard when i hear people talk about "the free world". There is no free world until we stop this exploitation of the world's poor. Freedom includes all people not just those that by chance happen to be blessed with western citizenship.

Where's Guatemala? West...

Care to tell me how they're blessed?

 

[Knight-Dragon]

Western MNCs pay much much better compared with their local counterparts in those 3rd World countries. And the fringe benefits are better.
But I agree that labour conditions can be bad in some countries. In which case, there shld be more international action to 'encourage' those countries to enforce intl labour standards. Remember that these MNCs bring much needed jobs and employment to the poor ppls of 3rd World countries.
BTW, Guatemala is in Latin America.

 

[Juize]

And now a little break from FlameWars, part 194325063.

Originally posted by joespaniel
C'mon, Scorch. This is a troll if I ever saw one.

Nothing in this world is black & white like that. All of these questions are loaded, and you just had to throw in Agent Orange too, didnt you.

Im too tired this morning to debate.

That's an excellent smiley!
Thank you, I'll copy/paste the adress & code to my notepad and use it (hopefully) often.
Thanks again.

 

[Mikoyan]

Apparently you are a 'Troll' if you express your true opinions....

 

[Juize]

Originally posted by Mikoyan
Apparently you are a 'Troll' if you express your true opinions....

Yes you are. That's not the thing what I hate.
I hate that you are a troll if (EDIT : Cutted out, avoiding pissing mod)

 

[Mikoyan]

What ever i post, i will always be labeled either a 'Troll' or a 'Spammer'... Some people apparently don't like the democratic right 'freedom of speech'.

 

[Juize]

Originally posted by Mikoyan
What ever i post, i will always be labeled either a 'Troll' or a 'Spammer'... Some people apparently don't like the democratic right 'freedom of speech'.

Freedom of Speech does NOT apply here. Read the rules.

 

[Mikoyan]

This forum is a dictatorship. (Spare me, please!)

 

[Dell19]

Originally posted by Mikoyan
This forum is a dictatorship. (Spare me, please!)

So that would make schools, restuarants and workplaces etc are dictatorships as well. They all have rules that you are supposed to follow...

 

[Mikoyan]

Yes, technically, since they ignore basic democratic rights

 

[Dell19]

Hmmm so you are moaning about a forum not being a democracy when nothing is in fact a democracy...

 

[Mikoyan]

I'm 'moaning' about the lack of democracy everywhere, this was just an example.