Do you view taxation as theft?

Do you view taxation as theft?


  • Total voters
    137
Why not? If it's that bad, move. If you live in a dictatorship then maybe you have a point... but then a lot more than your money is being taken from you. Although you can quibble with the ease of moving you cannot quibble with the fact that you get something for paying taxes.

The better analogy is shopping at a store that you hate. If you don't like what you get for your money then go to a different store.
I don't contest that you get something for your taxes. I am not arguing that taxation is theft.

But the store analogy doesn't hold because it's much easier to shop a a different store (assuming that that store did not have a monopoly) than it is to move away from family, job, and country.

For this reason, it would be unethical for a government to, for example, prohibit sex, but perfectly ethical for a monastery to prohibit sex. A monastery is an op-in institution, your typical nation is not.
 
Being able to vote is probably a better avenue for displaying consent rather than not moving. Moving is meant to illustrate where you need to go and what you need to accept to enjoy a world without taxes, i.e., you need to go live with Eskimos in the Arctic Circle, basically (unless they pay taxes too! what is this world coming to?). You pay taxes to enjoy those things everyone commonly enjoys in a modern society. I.e., roads, bridges, electricity, toilets that flush, water that comes out of a faucet on command, etc. If you don't want those things, you are free to live off the grid somewhere in Manitoba or something*.

If I come to your house and give you something you don't want, that's one thing. If I come to your house and fix your plumbing, and you are free to kick me out if you want but you don't, you should pay me for that.

*of course, Manitoba being in Canada, you'd need to hide from the tax man there too I suppose.
 
I think people are entitled to live in their country as much as they are entitled to live in their houses, yes.

The problem with saying that taxes are just like paying ordinary bills is that we did not accept to those expenses. Saying that we consent "by not moving" is a rather miserable critique that can be used to justify all sorts of criminal and despotic behaviors (Eg, in this country people of the ethnicity X don't get to vote. If you don't consent move out).

Whether "theft" or "extorsion" is the more appropriate word is indeed open for debate.


You enjoy not being conquered by a foreign power. The police protect you and your property. You have the ability to own property and broad rights about what you do with it. You were educated, you received many, many benefits, too many to enumerate. You already took all these things. And now you're complain because you got a bill for them.

It isn't the taxers that are the thieves.
 
This is simple. If you don't want to pay taxes, don't have any money.

(How to live without money is left as an exercise for the reader.)
 
No. You're right. But since property is (more or less) easily convertible to cash, I don't think my elegantly overly simplistic thesis needs much adjustment.

(Possibly living off the goodwill of others is a cunning dodge for avoiding taxation.)
 
Why not? If it's that bad, move. If you live in a dictatorship then maybe you have a point... but then a lot more than your money is being taken from you. Although you can quibble with the ease of moving you cannot quibble with the fact that you get something for paying taxes.

The better analogy is shopping at a store that you hate. If you don't like what you get for your money then go to a different store.

This isn't as simple as that. If a member of the mafia came to your house and held a gun to you saying "Three choices, pay for these services, leave, or get shot" the fact that you really will get services that you paid for doesn't mean that the mafioso didn't steal from you when he took your money.

I'll admit that its not as simple as that either. We do vote for the guys who take tax money from us (Although "Nobody" isn't an option:p) and give us services in return. Granted, our choices are limited, but we do get a "Choice" and some of those services can, no way no how, ever be provided by ourselves for ourselves, yet we need them (National defense is the basically undebatable example). So its more like a small group of mafia members, each with different visions of how much money he'll take at gunpoint and what he'll do with it to help us. Still, the plans are probably unfair to somebody. One mafia member wants to go fight a rival town and use our money to pay soldiers to do so, rather than to help us out. Another doesn't want to use our money to fight wars, but he wants to take a very high percentage of our income from the very rich to give the very poor a better life. The third, on the other hand, wants to actually PROTECT the rich, let them manipulate their way out of their extortion payments, and let the poor bear the brunt of the extortion payments.

Honestly, it feels like this sometimes. We do get some choice, but all of the choices suck, and SOMEBODY is getting robbed because they don't get what they paid for. I do not have a solution to totally end the extortion. Some think anarchy would be better, I have to say I'm not willing to accept the results that anarchy would result in. I do have respect for some of its proponents on these forums, I really do, but I just don't accept it. I think that if we only gave national defense and diplomacy to the Feds, a few things to the states, and most laws and regulations to the local counties, we could have a society in which, yes, "Theft" (In quotes because its very debatable) will occur but each community will get what IT pays for and IT wants. So yes, some people will still be upset, but then, moving to a different community is easier than moving to a different state or let alone country.

You enjoy not being conquered by a foreign power. The police protect you and your property. You have the ability to own property and broad rights about what you do with it. You were educated, you received many, many benefits, too many to enumerate. You already took all these things. And now you're complain because you got a bill for them.

It isn't the taxers that are the thieves.

True, which is why its iffy (And I voted other) as opposed to simply being theft. The more the government does, the more comparable to theft it is. National defense is pretty much undeniably essential. These things you describe are true, but then again, we really don't get a choice. Can you force bills on other people? Then again, what if you HAVE to for society to work? That's really what this is all about. The more local things are done, the better because then people do get more of a choice in how their money is used.

How to transition from the position we're in I have no idea, but we darn well better begin:p
 
You enjoy not being conquered by a foreign power. The police protect you and your property. You have the ability to own property and broad rights about what you do with it. You were educated, you received many, many benefits, too many to enumerate. You already took all these things. And now you're complain because you got a bill for them.

It isn't the taxers that are the thieves.

I think the problem with those threads is that some people fail to realize that by saying that taxes are indeed theft one isn't (necessarily) saying that taxes are wrong and ought to be abolished. You don't counter my points by saying that taxes pay for nice things.

The fundamental principle here is that we are demanded, under threat of force, to pay a price we didn't agree to for services we didn't ask for. Just saying "but you enjoyed those services!" does nothing to challenge this principle. So taxes are theft, or extorsion (which for me is a kind of theft anyway).

Now, can nations function without taxes? No. Would the world be a better place if taxes were abolished? No.
 
It depends I think, but overall no. It is a necessary evil, so I guess better to get use to it. Want free healthcare? You going to pay for it somehow. Want roads to be pave? Got to pay for it somehow.
 
No. Next question.
 
No, taxation isn't theft, it's the means to pay for common services that otherwise wouldn't exist (or would only exist in very localized situations). Do you have to pay it? Well, yes. But you know you're going to have to pay it, and you pretty much know how much you're going to have to pay. Whereas in theft, you don't know that someone is going to steal from you. And if you do, you probably shouldn't have gone to wherever you went. There's also the fact that while perhaps you might choose to not pay taxes for a certain item, you also are likely benefitting from items that other people might not pay for if it were all up to them.

Would it be nice to be able to check a box on your taxes that said, "Reduce my contributions to the military by 50% because I think we should be isolationist!"? It would. But then you also get the "Reduce my contribution to road maintenance by 50% because my car's tough!" box, and the "Reduce my contribution to water treatment by 50% because I only drink bottled water anyway" box, and pretty soon all sorts of services would be in varying states of disarray. Not to mention it'd probably cost 25% more just to hire all the accountants you'd need for that...

If you really want to avoid taxes, move to Scandinavia and use the Freedom to Roam to live off the land for the rest of your existance. Being skilled in doing so beforehand is advisable, but it would be a low-tax (and low-tech) way to live your life.
 
I think the problem with those threads is that some people fail to realize that by saying that taxes are indeed theft one isn't (necessarily) saying that taxes are wrong and ought to be abolished. You don't counter my points by saying that taxes pay for nice things.

The fundamental principle here is that we are demanded, under threat of force, to pay a price we didn't agree to for services we didn't ask for. Just saying "but you enjoyed those services!" does nothing to challenge this principle. So taxes are theft, or extorsion (which for me is a kind of theft anyway).

Now, can nations function without taxes? No. Would the world be a better place if taxes were abolished? No.


No, you are fundamentally misunderstanding the problem. By calling it theft, you fundamentally misrepresent, and so discredit, what it is. The correct analogy is that you went to a restaurant and had lunch, and now you want to walk off without paying for it.

You made a choice, or, when you were a child your parents made that choice for you, to take advantage of what taxes paid for. And now you say "well I didn't want it, so I don't owe the money to pay for it".

Well fine, get the hell out. Stop freeloading.

The populace, as a whole, has chosen what the government is to do. If you don't like it, change the government.
 
Just because you can use emotionally charged language to analogise a thing to another thing, doesn't mean that the first thing IS the second thing.
 
Just because you can use emotionally charged language to analogise a thing to another thing, doesn't mean that the first thing IS the second thing.

I deliberately tried not to do this, but I was trying to create an analogy to compare. I am interested in what people think is correct or incorrect about my description.
 
First of all, let's not elude ourselves that taxes were created to pay for "nice things' or for services that we may or may not have requested. It was not that a people thought they liked not being conquered and so helped fund an army to protect themselves, it were the conquerors that invented the taxes.
Taxes are a power relationship.
 
It depends I think, but overall no. It is a necessary evil, so I guess better to get use to it. Want free healthcare? You going to pay for it somehow. Want roads to be pave? Got to pay for it somehow.
I agree that taxes are unpleasant, but it does not follow that they are evil. Taxation is well intentioned, and yeilds positive results, like a stable economy and personal security. How can that be called evil?
 
OK, so I come to you house without you asking me, provide some service that you didn't ask for and demand that you pay under threat of force. But hey, if you don't like it feel free to move.
Without taxes to pay for police and courts and a public recording of real property rights, that would seem pretty common.
 
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