Do you view taxation as theft?

[warpus]

No, its not. It would be more akin to being dragged into the theater and then asked to pay for the movie. You got to see a movie, and you had to pay, but you didn't get the choice NOT to make the transaction. That absolutely makes it more iffy than straight out "Theft" but its not the same as any other transaction either.

That comparison would be apt if it were possible to live in the United States without being a part of the social contract that comes with being a U.S. citizen.

It's not - the only legal way to get around not paying taxes is to renounce your citizenship and move elsewhere.

So I suppose in a way you are right. You are free to not to go to the movie and not pay. You are also free to renounce your citizenship, move elsewhere, void the social contract, and no longer pay taxes to the U.S. government or to any state within. Otherwise you are obliged to pay taxes, due to the social contract... much like you are obliged to pay for the movie if you make a choice to enter the movie theatre.

 

[Cutlass]

I'm not discrediting it at all. I agree that calling it theft isn't very constructive, but there's no escaping its similarity to a protection racket. The non-voluntary, non agreed upon nature of taxation leaves no doubt.

Except, of course, it doesn't much resemble that. I mean, you did agree to it, after all.

Of course, you object when people do that, as well, and I'm still waiting for you to pay back the money you've stolen from me.

You misunderstand I want most governments changed. The failure to change the bad governments into good ones is the major problem with the whole system.

I haven't stolen as much money from you as you have from me. So let's just call that even.

 

[Yeekim]

That comparison would be apt if it were possible to live in the United States without being a part of the social contract that comes with being a U.S. citizen.

It's not - the only legal way to get around not paying taxes is to renounce your citizenship and move elsewhere.

Wrong, see below.

The non-voluntary, non agreed upon nature of taxation leaves no doubt.

It is possible not to pay taxes, you know. Sure, you would have to revert to the gatherer lifestyle of out distant forefathers, but the possibility is there.

I'd argue that you can't become subject to taxes without actually using services that are paid for by taxpayers money.

 

[EmperorPlatypus]

No. You have a moral obligation to serve your nation. And part of that obligation is to pay taxes.

 

[Antilogic]

Seems like we have a handful of fairly vocal free-loaders here.

 

[Cutlass]

Seems like we have a handful of fairly vocal free-loaders here.

They usually are. There are few things that upset a rugged individualist more than being denied a free lunch.

 

[Integral]

Do you view taxation as theft?

I don't really think about questions like this anymore. However, I am a voting citizen, hence I have some say over what my tax dollars do and how much my government taxes me. So no, I don't consider taxation "theft" in some deep libertarian-theoretic sense. I sort of see it as my payment for services rendered, where I get an imperfect say in the services so rendered via the election system.

 

[luiz]

Wrong, see below.

It is possible not to pay taxes, you know. Sure, you would have to revert to the gatherer lifestyle of out distant forefathers, but the possibility is there.

I'd argue that you can't become subject to taxes without actually using services that are paid for by taxpayers money.

Don't know about other countries, but over here I certainly don't have the right to become a hunter-gatherer. As soon as the Federal Police found out I killed some wild animal they'd throw me in prison. That if they don't arrest me before for invading a protected area, transpassing an indian reserve, etc.

 

[Yeekim]

Don't know about other countries, but over here I certainly don't have the right to become a hunter-gatherer. As soon as the Federal Police found out I killed some wild animal they'd throw me in prison. That if they don't arrest me before for invading a protected area, transpassing an indian reserve, etc.

That is why I deliberately left out the "hunter" part.

 

[warpus]

It is possible not to pay taxes, you know. Sure, you would have to revert to the gatherer lifestyle of out distant forefathers, but the possibility is there.

I'd argue that you can't become subject to taxes without actually using services that are paid for by taxpayers money.

Yeah, I suppose it is possible for a person to throw off the shackles of the social contract and go live in the woods somewhere.

That doesn't really change much though.

 

[NedimNapoleon]

I like nice paved roads...so no

 

[Borachio]

Yeah, and they're a great source of road kill for those tax dodging gatherers.

 

[Cutlass]

Don't know about other countries, but over here I certainly don't have the right to become a hunter-gatherer. As soon as the Federal Police found out I killed some wild animal they'd throw me in prison. That if they don't arrest me before for invading a protected area, transpassing an indian reserve, etc.

The problem is that even that is freeloading on the system. If just anyone went out to be hunter-gathers, soon the ecology would break down and the whole country would pay the cost of that.

So the whole point is that whether you like it or not, you are using the services of the government that you claim are theft to pay for.

 

[warpus]

One way around it would be to move somewhere far north in the Canadian tundra or maybe in Alaska if you're American.

It's possible but only under very extreme circumstances.. and yes, you'd have to hunt for yourself, so that would likely make you an outlaw, depending on local laws and what exactly you're killing.

 

[luiz]

The problem is that even that is freeloading on the system. If just anyone went out to be hunter-gathers, soon the ecology would break down and the whole country would pay the cost of that.

So the whole point is that whether you like it or not, you are using the services of the government that you claim are theft to pay for.

What you're saying is we have no choice whatsoever in the matter.

 

[Cutlass]

What you're saying is we have no choice whatsoever in the matter.

There may be some places you can go. Extreme wilderness, Siberia, that sort of thing. Or places with just no real government. But the simple fact is that you, whether you like it or not, benefit from the government. And so you owe the cost (your share) of the government.

That is aside, of course, from whether you happen to live in a place with a government that is well run or you have a proper say in. No government can possibly suit all the people all the time. But you can at least try and move to someplace that suits you better.

 

[Traitorfish]

The government is more like an investment fund, where you put money in, have some say in what the investment is in, but must ultimately defer to the majority opinion. It's not a perfect analogy, but it's closer than theft.

Investment is voluntary. Taxation is not. That's what determines whether or not it constitutes "theft"; the rest is just a question of organisation.

There may be some places you can go. Extreme wilderness, Siberia, that sort of thing. Or places with just no real government. But the simple fact is that you, whether you like it or not, benefit from the government. And so you owe the cost (your share) of the government.

I really don't know why you pretend to be a liberal when your outlook is so deeply, deeply Hobbesian. As far as I can see you are fundamentally a conservative, just one who likes Keynesianism and social security.

 

[Borachio]

Is theft tax?

Hmm.



On the other hand, thieves do redistribute wealth. Mostly.


Link to video.

 

[Cutlass]

I really don't know why you pretend to be a liberal when your outlook is so deeply, deeply Hobbesian. As far as I can see you are fundamentally a conservative, just one who likes Keynesianism and social security.

Then clearly you have no real idea what those terms mean. At least not in the modern American context.

 

[Wolfbeckett]

There may be some places you can go. Extreme wilderness, Siberia, that sort of thing. Or places with just no real government. But the simple fact is that you, whether you like it or not, benefit from the government. And so you owe the cost (your share) of the government.

You are actually supporting his argument and don't even seem to realize it. What you are saying is that no matter what (reasonable) course of action you take, you are forced to use services that you did not specifically request and then forcefully made to pay for them. That is functionally identical to a protection racket, which we call extortion. When the government does it, it's called taxation.

Whether or not anyone believes that the services we get for it are worth the cost is irrelevant (I think the vast majority of the population would agree that at least some taxation is necessary). Intellectual honesty demands calling a spade a spade. If a street gang giving you services you didn't ask for and then forcing you to pay is called extortion, then logically the government doing the exact same thing must be extortion as well. The fact that you and I happen to believe that we get what we pay for in the second case doesn't matter when answering the question as phrased.