DocT3 Best Start Ever! (Emperor)

One thing I would have considered is trading Monarchy for COL on the first turn. Since Monarchy is already out there, you keep currency and make us the only one in the Middle Ages. It does speed up the tech rate slightly since the civs will switch govts though, so maybe waiting was the right thing not sure.

Feudalism is one tech I would consider researching at better than minimum. The reason is that it is a govenment tech, so the cost is 50% higher to buy as compared to research. It sounds like we have sufficient gold for upgrades, so I think we can do this. Also having MDI is not a bad thing for our attacks.

I think it would be worth doing the upgrades now rather than later. The reason is that the bigger our army, the less likely other civs will demand something from us. At this point, for example, we have to refuse any Japanese demands for resources which could mean war with them. This could interfere with our ability to attack the celts.
 
Greebly, thanks for the feedback. It went against my instincts not to trade Monarchy early, but then I didn't like the idea of Japan getting Monarchy. I think Japan is going to be our biggest problem in the long run since they have their own island and it is apparently fairly productive. Also, not trading kept the tech pace somewhat slower. Maya and France have good lands, but we can always get them to fight each other if we need to.

One thing, can you explain how you know that the cost to buy a govt. tech is 50% higher? (Good info. BTW, I knew that govt. techs were more highly valued, but not by how much.)
 
Good question. I looked for it and couldn't figure out where I got it which makes it suspect.

Can anyone confirm or deny that a government tech is 50% more expensive to buy than research?

(That would be:
Monarchy, Republic, Feudalism, Democracy, Nationalism, Communism, Fascism.
(note that Nationalism is not strictly a govt tech)).

I think the argument still holds even if it is not exactly 50% though.
 
Made a custom senario where construction (wonder tech), currency, republic (government) and monarchy(government and wonder) all have tech cost 24 (what monarchy usually cost)
Made it so I started with all AA techs, and gifted all the other AA techs to AI at first (AI started with 100k gold). Difficulty regent. AI turned polite.

This is what AI offered for the techs when asked what they would offer:

currency: 620gold
construction: 640gold
republic: 830gold
monarchy: 840gold

Seems like wonder matter very little for what they offer, while government adds about 30%
 
Thanks for testing it Gyathaar!!

I was really suprised I couldn't find this information in the strategy article section. That is where I assumed I read about the 50%, but could find nothing. Either I missed finding it or it is missing information from the strategy section.

I probably heard it from a good player, or it is an old value from long ago. I am glad I now know it is was not correct and can give the real value.
 
Very cool Gyathaar, thanks!
 
Just realized that when asked what they offer they give it in full 10g steps.. so this is the max they would pay:

currency: 698gold
construction: 721gold
republic: 926gold
monarchy: 939gold

hmm.. seems like either it puts different weights on wonders or different weights on the governments.. trying with 2 changes;

remove wonder from monarchy and construction to see if same cost as currency and republic now

construction: 711gold
monarchy: 926gold

in other words...:
monarchy government and republic government adds the same value to the tech..

hanging guardens added 13 gold while great wall just 10gold

aqueduct+colloseum+ability to build forts and barricades is worth 13gold more than just markets

remove forts and barricades:
construction: 708gold

removed colloseum, and moved market from currenct to republic, added forts to monarchy:
construction: 704gold
currency: 694gold
republic: 931gold
monarchy: 929gold


Results:
A government adds about 33.3%
A wonder adds about 2%
Each added building adds about 1%
One or more worker actions adds about 0.5%
 
wow.. mobilization raise the cost from 694gold to 1393gold ..

ability to conscript units adds the same value..
having both results in same.


mobilization and/or conscription increase cost by about 100%.
ability to negosiate trade embargo and MPP adds about 1%
 
Great job, Gyathaar! :thanx:

While you're at it, could you please make one more test, and look for UUs and SS parts? Both do influence research preferences.


DocT3 – 50AD

Not much to report.

Ok, it’s time to prepare for war.
Upgrade our Warriors, switch Leptis Magna to Nummie, Leptis Minor to Archer and rush it, I want to get out a Settler there with growth in 6. Since I want to build Palace and FP during GA, I want a few more cities.
80% research brings us Feudalism in 28 @-2gpt. Korea and Sumeria are each one tech (Currency) away from the MA, maybe we’re lucky and they both don’t get Feud…

Turn 1: 70AD
Shuffle garrisons to get the Vet Warrior to cities with Barracks. Run our fleet back home.
IBT:
Utica Market (and growth to 7) -> Library

Turn 3: 110AD
IBT:
Sumeria declares on Korea – that’s actually nice, since that way they cannot trade their free techs :)
Mayans complete the Great Library.

Turn 6: 170AD
IBT:
Carthage Market-> Library
Sumeria got Engineering, already traded it to Mayans.
Grr…the Governor puts new citizens for Leptis Magna on lake tiles, not the gold hill.

Turn 8: 210AD
IBT:
Smoke Jaguar demands 31gp…he can have it.
Utica Library -> Cat
Mayans have Feudalism :(

Turn 9: 250AD
IBT:
Utica Cat-> Palace? Better switch to Barracks, just wanted to see if the cost goes up.

Sorry, screwed up and played 11 :blush:

Summary:
2 more cities founded.
Mayans got really strong atm.
Don’t think we need more Swords/MDI, but some more Nummies and a few Archers or Cats. I expect the Celts to have lots of trash (and they have Horses anyway); better declare, and land a defensive stack on a mountain first.
The Horse town would make a good FP city IMHO; no fresh water, but at least a food bonus.

The Save
 
Havent started playing yet, but have had a look at save, and i have a question..
Is there a reason why we are still researching feudalism at 80% still now that mayans already have it?
I realize MDI is better swords.. but for celts it wont matter much I think (they dont have iron. so only have spears.. and their army is weak compared to us :crazyeye: )

I will prolly tune down the research to 40% or 50% to get som cash for other uses.... (at 40% feudalism is due in 16 turns)
 
Well, I prefer MDI a lot over Swords, the casualties against Spear when you cannot use Cats (because of the Mountains) are way less.
Then, we have only 2 cities with Barracks, so we'll have problems to upgrade them later; moving from Leptis Magna to the theatre takes ages. We need tp build another road segment there IIRC, or sign a RoP with Korea.

And, I want to get Feud ASAP, since Ottos and Korea (the later only lack Currency, Ottos lack about everything - so far ;) ) are still ancient. We should get Mono or Engineering for Feudalism from any of them.
So, max research was delibartely, not an oversight :) .
 
270AD, inherited turn:

take a look around.
Celtic city richborough is really annoyingly placed at south tip on celt/korean island. Because of it all our trade routes HAS to go though celtic waters.

celts also has cities on hourse island and japanese island.

mayans has cities on the islands east of horse island.. how did they get there? ah.. they have lighthouse.. uh,, mayans has lighthouse,pyramids, glib, temple of artemis, MoM, building sun zu, and are agricultural.. they apear to have the 2nd best starting agrea after japan too.. no wonder they are growing fast.

we still dont have enough cities to build FP.. we have 9 cities.. we need one more city to be able to build it.

Despite Doc's reasons for 80% research on feudalism.. I decide to veto it :lol:
Reason is because mayans must know several civs by now (they have spread out a lot) and is bound to sell it to another civ or two soonish, and buying at 2nd or 3rd will be close to what we currently spend on the research since we only have 1 library, but 2 markets (and I want some cash on hand to be able to pull off two and 3fers)

Switch the palace in utica to barracks.

Theveste has barracks but is building library, I really dont think we need to research anything yet, so I will use it to build units.. switch to numedian

Change the library in Chartage to barracks as well..

Since we need one more town for FP, I switch lepis minor to settler and will rush it when it reach since 3.

Why are a lot of workers wasting turns building mines on tundra When engineering is right around the corner (can plant forest then for 1 more shield)? I leave them thou since only 1 turn to completion.

280AD, turn 1:
not much

IBT: Korea and summeria sign peace

290AD, turn 2:
rush settler in lepis minor

Mayans sold feudalism to france now..

japan is the most powerful nation atm, and they are growing fast in power, Behind them are mayas and france. Sadly there is nothing I can do about japan atm.

Maya and france on the other hand..

Either Summeria or japan will sell currency to koreans any time now I bet, so may as well pull the trigger now so I can use their free tech in trades in our turn.

Koreans get engineering.

France will give us better price for feudalism than maya, but this doesnt fit my plans for them...

establish embassy with mayans. Looks like mayans is trying for a 20k win... chichen Itza has temple,library,pyramids,great lib, mom and palace.. and 2 turns left on building colosseum.. its currently pulling in 25cpt ;P

France has great wall, iron, no horses and feudalism. France has no way of getting to us before they can travel sea squares.

Maya has no iron, no horses, and is the only ai that can get to some of the islands due to having lighthouse.

Declare war on france, then ally maya vs france for 12gpt and 4 gold.

Maya is now polite and will sell us feudalism for 24gpt and 216gold

france with great wall, pikes and mdi vs maya in golden age with javalin throwers and fueled by out gpt and lots of wonders.. should get bloody :lol:

Looking at who has what techs atm.. I dont want japan or korea to get hold of feudalism yet, so trade feudalism to summeria (they dont have iron) for engineering, 1gpt and 15 gold

Japan has republic, korea has engineering.. engineering is not enough to get republic from japan unless I thow in silks.. but that will would mean waiting 20 turns to start war with celts unless we want to ruin rep.. so I sell engineering to japan for all their gold and gpt, that way koreans cant get anything for engineering atleast.

Upgrade the curragh in carthage.

IBT:
Culture expansion, palace expansion
Loose supplies of dyes


300ad, turn 3:
No cities will riot at 0% lux even after loosing dyes, so I dont renew deal (it will prolly break when we declare on celts anyway)

Will spend a few turns building up military before declaring on celts, We still only have 2 numedians on main island.

310ad, turn 4:
Found Hadrumetum, and we can now build FP
upgrade one sword to MDI

320ad, turn 5:
load 2 galleys with 2 numeian, 1 archer and 1 mdi.. will declare and drop them off on mountain next to celt capital after lux deal with japan expire in 2 turns (japan is giving us lux, so delaring now would not ruin rep, but will take 2 turns to get up there anyway)

330ad, turn 6:
build and move troops

Bah, japan picked up feudalism somehow.. they must have researched it themselves.

IBT:

Summeria lands a settler pair on south end of our island..

loose spices

340ad, turn 7:
have to raise lux tax to 10% because of the lost lux.

summeria and maya has invention now.. archers for mayans in war vs france is the only good part about that.. :rolleyes:

350ad, turn 8:
move our boats out of celtic waters, then declare war

land 2 numedians, 1 mdi and an archer on mountain next to entremont.. capturing a worker in the process.

IBT:
Celts move a lot of troops towards entremont, but dont attack the small stack even if it isnt fortified.. I guess they wont attack numedians on mountains at all... after all the best they have is attack 2 units.


360ad, turn 9:
use the mdi to attack the vet spearman ontop in entremont, MDI takes no damage and kills spear, and promotes to elite.
archer kills archer on mountain next to entremont that was heading towards the capital.. takes one hp damage, One of the numians moves onto of the archer to protect it

IBT:
huh.. japan demands silks.. we have a traderoute to japan? how? I did not check if we could trade with other nations after declaring, I just assumed we could not... I give japan the silks.. we are not ready to fight them

Hmm.. this time celts attack fortified numedian on mountain with an archer.. and loose.. we enter a golden age

The numedian kill another 2 archers, and promote to elite. Archer attacks numedian in the town next to the first horse town, and it promote to vet

palace expansion


370ad, turn 10:
elite mdi flawlessly kills regular spear in entremont

move the archer and numedian back to the original spot, wonder if the archer defensive shot is what stopped them from attaching when archer and numedian is on same tile.

switch utica to palace, due in 16 turns.


I left all the workers unmoved in last turn, since they all have moves atm.
The two workers by sabratha just copped,roaded and replanted the tile they are on. The Worker Hybadrumtum just moved onto the forest and was about to do the same. The forest by utica was just planted.. no point chopping/replaning that atm since utica is building palace.

summeria will give us gold and lux for silks if we want.. however we will get another lux when entremont falls in not too long (I killed a total of 6 troops there the last 2 turns.. they cant have many troops left, since they were weak compared to us when I started war. Galleys just got back home and can send reinforcenemnts over from carthage next turn.

Hippo will take 40 turns to build FP even in golden age, so not sure if that is the best spot to buld it.. growth to size 3 and rushing the courthouse would drop it with many turns thou.

Might be better to build FP in Entremont.

Our army is weak compared to japan and ottomans, strong vs celts, and average to everyone else.

I still have no clue how we are able to trade luxes with japan and summeria..

The save
 
Direct answers:
Theveste has barracks but is building library, I really dont think we need to research anything yet,
Maybe. But we need a Temple in Theveste even less, and the city needs a culture expansion :)
uh,, mayans has lighthouse,pyramids, glib, temple of artemis, MoM, building sun zu, and are agricultural
I told you that already...
Why are a lot of workers wasting turns building mines on tundra When engineering is right around the corner (can plant forest then for 1 more shield)? I leave them thou since only 1 turn to completion.
And what tiles should those cities work for the next 20 turns or so, possible even during GA? Forest are superior,but a mine ís better than nothing.
Declare war on france, then ally maya vs france for 12gpt and 4 gold.
Excellent move. :thumbsup:
Might be better to build FP in Entremont
I couldn't see the lands around Entremont before, and since it didn't grow in the hands of an AGR Civ, I assumed they suck-if that's not true,sure, good choice as well.
 
I couldn't see the lands around Entremont before, and since it didn't grow in the hands of an AGR Civ, I assumed they suck-if that's not true,sure, good choice as well.
Entremont has 2 BG, grass with furs (same as a BG with an extra gold), and a normal grass tile, an in addition gold in one of the mountains.

Maybe. But we need a Temple in Theveste even less, and the city needs a culture expansion
I know.. but it also needs a harbor to take full advantage of the extra tiles, and it was just one of 2 cities with rax, so i needed it :)
Atm it would be best to plant another forest next to it for it to work when it grows in 4 turns :)
 
Early: The two units we have will not be able to take Etremont
A Celt horseman is landed on our island and we only have an archer. Fortunately the archer wins. (Sumeria stepped on our road the same turn blocking us).


Mid:
We take Entremont. No losses yet.
Sumeria Demands silks. I waffle a lot but decide it would be too much of a pain to be at war with them.

Late: Entremont flips taking a MDI with it We take it back
Capture Lugdunum and Camulodunum. We own the island now.
Trade with Sumeria for Monotheism. Get Republic from Korea for Monotheism. We are now down Invention.
Start setting up the move to get to the towns on the other islands.

Notes:
I wanted to finish off the main and also like rounding off the year, so I played to 500 AD (last time I played 9 since doc had played turn 12 twice :lol:). We are just getting ready to launch against other cities.

There are two elite MDI in Camulodunum that can hop onto the boat next turn. They were healing.
There is one MDI and one Num Merc in a second boat.
There is one MDI in the last boat and we can load another next turn.

Our palace is about to move.
 
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