Does anyone else use lumbermills?

[drkodos]

I think you'll find the hammers aren't real hammers either.

There is no spoon?

 

[Stolen Rutters]

Forests will spread if given a chance so I have been saving forests I don't need to chop and I won't build improvements adjacent to encourage them to spread more, especially if they are near tundra or plains that I won't use until later. The forest will spread into the marginal tundra and help the cities on the edge of the tundra (my fog buster fur/silver towns). Sometimes I can even chop the new forest instead of the original one if it spreads to a soon-to-be cottaged tile, thus adding a chop.

 

[shivute]

Chop, Chop, Chop, Chop the lot apart from Tundra.

Lumbermills are rubbish - only good if you don't have the workers or the time to chop them and build workshops.


If lumber was considered as a resource and could be used in some other way, now that could be interesting - eg if you don't have trees in your fat cross then building construction is slower in that city? or no building early seige units in cities that haven't got trees linked up to them?
Perhaps an early lumbermill introduced with the tech hunting, to allow access to using wood?

Hmmm

 

[Stolen Rutters]

I will agree lumbermills are rare and come too late to do much. Aside from forested tundra, they aren't a high priority for me as I'm usually pushing the commerce for the next tech advantage (you can still do that on Monarch). They just give me an extra hammer for the valuable forests that have survived into the Rennaisance. As hard as I try to hold on to the forests, they tend to be rare inside the fat cross.

 

[Eggolas]

Lumbermills are ok, but I've found that state property and workshops are far superior, except for tundra/forest not next to a river. Next to a river, watermills on one side.

 

[Murky]

They are a good mid to late game production boost without sacrificing the health bonus of forest. I like to keep 4 or more forest around for Lumbermills in some cities so they can grow to a large size without needing a lot of health bonuses.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

They are a good mid to late game production boost without sacrificing the health bonus of forest. I like to keep 4 or more forest around for Lumbermills in some cities so they can grow to a large size without needing a lot of health bonuses.

If I've mentally marked a city as a commerce centre then I do chop forests there - usually not immediately, I try to wait until either I'm building a wonder that I want built quickly, or I'm building something that I get a big production bonus on to maximize the chopping hammers.

If I've mentally marked a city as a production one then I keep just about all forests other than ones on hills (and usually the presence of forests is one reason why I've picked it as a production city). The great thing I find about that is the forests allow me to keep production there relatively high right through the game: I'm not waiting until some technology or civic comes along before I can make proper use of a watermill or workshop or whatever.

Of course forests that are outside any likely city radius get chopped - again usually to time with a wonder or something. And forests that are currently in unclaimed land but look likely soon to end up within the cultural borders of an AI that I'm not planning to go to war with get chopped very quickly (less so with 1.61 now they give me so much fewer hammers)

Personally I don't normally find the health bonus to be that significant - it can be useful sometimes in the early game before I've got enough health resources linked up and built grocer, aquaduct, etc., but it's not often I have a city that is suffering too badly from health. And if I do it's usually because of lots of floodplains, which probably means there are no forests nearby anyway! But the constant production is great. No need to faff around converting a city between commerce and production, with all the implied wasting of towns etc. And when you do get to the late game, a city with lots of forests with lumbermills and railroads, a food resource and perhaps a hill or two, plus production-increasing buildings can be unsurpassed in its production. (My best was around 250 hammers/turn for building spaceship parts).

 

[Andrei_V]

You can chop forests for the SS parts, btw. They are credited normally, and with all those huge bonuses from Factories, Ironworks, Aluminium, Labs, Space Elevator, etc

If you were smart enough as to leave quite a few forests for Lumbermills, this is probably the best time to chop them down and replace by Workshops.

 

[refardeon]

Remeber there is another reason to chop the trees: the big defence bonus units gain while on a forest tile. That can be a huge advantage for any attacker - if his troops are in the forest, you'll have a much harder time destroying them. This is particulary annoying (and dangerous in the early game!) while playing a multiplayer game, and for that reason I usually chop at least the woods adjacent to the city. Most of the time, the rest of the X is chopped aswell.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Remeber there is another reason to chop the trees: the big defence bonus units gain while on a forest tile. That can be a huge advantage for any attacker - if his troops are in the forest, you'll have a much harder time destroying them. This is particulary annoying (and dangerous in the early game!) while playing a multiplayer game, and for that reason I usually chop at least the woods adjacent to the city. Most of the time, the rest of the X is chopped aswell.

That's an interesting point. I can certainly see that being a significant factor in MP games, where I guess it's very likely a human player will be attacking you, and using pretty intelligent battle tactics. (I don't really play MP myself). I'm not totally clear how the balance works out because on the one hand, your opponent gets the defence bonus, but then if you want to move your troops out to meet the opponent, you get that defence bonus too. And the forests slow down your opponent's mounted units and tanks (but without slowing you down, if you have roads on them, and assuming they're within your borders), and I'm not sure if the forests can reduce your opponent's visibility too? (Does the 2-square view from hills get obscured by forests?)

 

[refardeon]

That's an interesting point. I can certainly see that being a significant factor in MP games, where I guess it's very likely a human player will be attacking you, and using pretty intelligent battle tactics. (I don't really play MP myself).

It is common tactic in most MP games to send a warrior or two immediately to the enemy. If you just park those outside his town in a forest (on a hill for best results) you can really hamper his progress.

I'm not totally clear how the balance works out because on the one hand, your opponent gets the defence bonus, but then if you want to move your troops out to meet the opponent, you get that defence bonus too.

True, and most defenders try to do this to a certain extend. The trouble is that it spreads out your troops too much. If I have to defend myself, I usually put a few guys outside the city to harass the enemy and buy some time, but the main defending force stays in the city. The main concern is that the attacker will overcome your guys in the forest eventually and will make use of the bonus himself. There is an exception to that, however: If there is a good defensive spot two tiles away from the city, you should try to keep a small force there. Sometimes, the enemy will just walk past them, leaving you free to attack his reinforcements.

And the forests slow down your opponent's mounted units and tanks (but without slowing you down, if you have roads on them, and assuming they're within your borders), and I'm not sure if the forests can reduce your opponent's visibility too? (Does the 2-square view from hills get obscured by forests?)

Yes, that is true. But since mounted units don't get any defensive bonuses, they should not be in a forest anyway while attacking. Good point with the roads however, this is an advantage.

If I recall correctly, the forests block visibility, but you can sacrifice a chariot or two if you need more intelligence about enemy movement.

 

[GenocideBringer]

I've always found forests GOOD for defense. It's much better to meet your opponent on the outskirts of your fat cross than inside the city. It stops them from pillaging/blockading your city.

 

[refardeon]

True, but it is different in Multiplayer, as I said. Human players will avoid your guys in the forest and use another way - or attack another city.

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

If I've mentally marked a city as a commerce centre then I do chop forests there - usually not immediately, I try to wait until either I'm building a wonder that I want built quickly, or I'm building something that I get a big production bonus on to maximize the chopping hammers.

I haven't managed to persuade myself that the latter makes a difference.

Suppose your are chopping at a city that produces 5 hammers per turn. Chopping a 20 hammer forrest produces four turns worth of hammers.

If you wait until you are building something with a bonus, then you get 40 hammers out of the forrest. Of course, while producing this building, the city is generating 10 hammers a turn, so your chop is still giving you four turns worth of hammers.

 

[malekithe]

I haven't managed to persuade myself that the latter makes a difference.

Suppose your are chopping at a city that produces 5 hammers per turn. Chopping a 20 hammer forrest produces four turns worth of hammers.

If you wait until you are building something with a bonus, then you get 40 hammers out of the forrest. Of course, while producing this building, the city is generating 10 hammers a turn, so your chop is still giving you four turns worth of hammers.

I agree with your analysis. I prioritize chops based on urgent needs (I really want this library/courthouse now) instead production bonuses. You save the same number of turns with or without the bonus, so you may as well save those turns on something that you really need.

 

[Andrei_V]

You have a 50% advantage, though, if you chop after Math.

 

[malekithe]

You have a 50% advantage, though, if you chop after Math.

Except for the fact that early turns are valued higher than later turns. If you're close to getting math, then you should definitely wait a couple of turns and get a higher return. But if math is dozens of turns away, I'm not sure there is any advantage to be gained by waiting.

A bit of a paradox: what if by chopping a library you would get math a few turns sooner?

 

[Synex]

I tend to cottage spam a LOT, so will often chop granary and library into a city - both to clear the forest of grassland squares to be cottaged, and to get my two most important buildings up early.

 

[Andrei_V]

Except for the fact that early turns are valued higher than later turns.

That's true, if you invest in a really really important thing.

A bit of a paradox: what if by chopping a library you would get math a few turns sooner?

Build more cottages instead of chopping.