Does it really matter?

[ShannonCT]

No, India and China are going to do what any reasonable countries would do when European dimwits complacently make their little ego-stroking agreements instead of working with the US to compel China and India to drastically reduce their emissions. They know that their relative and absolute economic power will grow if they continue to free ride. The Kyoto signatories have no backbone and no sense.

 

[StarWorms]

No, India and China are going to do what any reasonable countries would do when European dimwits complacently make their little ego-stroking agreements instead of working with the US to compel China and India to drastically reduce their emissions. They know that their relative and absolute economic power will grow if they continue to free ride. The Kyoto signatories have no backbone and no sense.

China and India aren't producing much in emissions per capita, the USA are.

USA: 19.8 Tonnes per capita
China: 3.2
India 1.19

 

[Sidhe]

No, India and China are going to do what any reasonable countries would do when European dimwits complacently make their little ego-stroking agreements instead of working with the US to compel China and India to drastically reduce their emissions. They know that their relative and absolute economic power will grow if they continue to free ride. The Kyoto signatories have no backbone and no sense.

That's frighteningly short sighted and antagonistic, no wonder you don't agree with Kyoto if you feel like that. Admit it: saying we don't want to because x isn't is the attitude of a five year old, and has nothing to do with China, it's just economics. Yeah we feel smug about it, because we're on higher platform morally than you, so get over it.

 

[Riffraff]

it seems like relativism is getting quite popular among the US conservatives

 

[ShannonCT]

China and India aren't producing much in emissions per capita, the USA are.

USA: 19.8 Tonnes per capita
China: 3.2
India 1.19

How about this measure of emission responsibility...

Per area carbon emissions:

India: 386 metric tons per sq km
China: 340
USA: 607
Japan: 3185
Germany: 2254
France: 546
UK: 2221
EU: 833

At the rate China and India are modernizing, they will soon match the US in emissions per area (and later the EU). Hopefully, they never get as bad as Germany or the UK. Cramming a billion+ people into an area the size of the US shouldn't let you off the emissions hook.

That's frighteningly short sighted and antagonistic, no wonder you don't agree with Kyoto if you feel like that. Admit it: saying we don't want to because x isn't is the attitude of a five year old, and has nothing to do with China, it's just economics. Yeah we feel smug about it, because we're on higher platform morally than you, so get over it.

Kyoto is just typical European paternalistism: treating the poor, helpless Chinese and Indian as subhumans that need to be saved by Europe. Western Europe does have an overwhelming moral responsibility to Asia and Africa after the centuries of screwing up those continents, and an overwhelming debt to pay to the US for the huge sums of money and lives that we spent protecting Western European freedom and well-being. But these myopic emissions reduction plans are causing the world to grow complacent, and are about as well thought out as a five-year-old's plan for running away from home. Well done.

 

[Sidhe]

Kyoto is just typical European paternalistism: treating the poor, helpless Chinese and Indian as subhumans that need to be saved by Europe. Western Europe does have an overwhelming moral responsibility to Asia and Africa after the centuries of screwing up those continents, and an overwhelming debt to pay to the US for the huge sums of money and lives that we spent protecting Western European freedom and well-being. But these myopic emissions reduction plans are causing the world to grow complacent, and are about as well thought out as a five-year-old's plan for running away from home. Well done.

Well that's the biggest load of tripe I ever heard? Why do you think Europe has some sort of superiority complex? Has anyone said something behind our backs?

Face it your just trying to justify doing nothing and it's as transparent as crap, this aint about us it's about you, acting like 5 year olds diplomatically as per friggin usual.

 

[Riffraff]

How about this measure of emission responsibility...

Per area carbon emissions:

India: 386 metric tons per sq km
China: 340
USA: 607
Japan: 3185
Germany: 2254
France: 546
UK: 2221
EU: 833

now thats really usefull isn't it...

How bout a statistic "carbon emission per hamburgers consumed each year". I bet the US would look even better on that one.

 

[StarWorms]

How about this measure of emission responsibility...

Per area carbon emissions:

India: 386 metric tons per sq km
China: 340
USA: 607
Japan: 3185
Germany: 2254
France: 546
UK: 2221
EU: 833

At the rate China and India are modernizing, they will soon match the US in emissions per area (and later the EU). Hopefully, they never get as bad as Germany or the UK. Cramming a billion+ people into an area the size of the US shouldn't let you off the emissions hook.

Nice. You take a statistic which can be compared between all countries and change it so that it can't.

Per capita shows how much, on average, each person uses. All countries can be compared against each other.

Per km² cannot be compared between countries as is dependant on population density. To compare all countries, you need to divide that number by the population density, which would actually give the emissions per capita. You can't compare statistics that can't be compared.

I could post up examples of total CO2 emissions. However, they cannot be compared. The USA would have a very large value because it's a large country. The UK would have a much lower value because it's a much smaller country. The total CO2 emissions is dependant on the total population of the country.

You can only compare the per capita data with each other or you take into account other factors like total population or population density.

 

[ShannonCT]

Well that's the biggest load of tripe I ever heard?

I thought the biggest loads of tripe went into British cuisine.

Face it your just trying to justify doing nothing and it's as transparent as crap, this aint about us it's about you, acting like 5 year olds diplomatically as per friggin usual.

Nice rant. Europe can continue to look inward and fail the world. Down the road, when Europe is a desert, at least you all can feel good in your delusions of not being responsible. The United States will further its carbon reduction efforts when there's a plan that holds everyone accountable. We're not going to play the fool and get crushed by the Chinese and Indian economies.

 

[Mercenary82]

Oh I get in other words they will act with the same childish idiocy as you(Republican asshats) Do? You may be right?

But dad he's doing it!!!

It seems like you are the one acting childish here, resorting to name calling when you know there is no good reason why India and China shouldn't be on board with this also.

 

[Sidhe]

It seems like you are the one acting childish here, resorting to name calling when you know there is no good reason why India and China shouldn't be on board with this also.

I dont run politically, calling a spade a spade, that is all. And using China to justify why you won't do anything is lame, why is it you can't focus on the fact that this is obfuscation, that the real issue has nothing to do with China, but all to do with economics, and the asshattery of your current regime.

Nice rant. Europe can continue to look inward and fail the world. Down the road, when Europe is a desert, at least you all can feel good in your delusions of not being responsible. The United States will further its carbon reduction efforts when there's a plan that holds everyone accountable. We're not going to play the fool and get crushed by the Chinese and Indian economies.

See what I mean it's never your fault it's always everyone else, it's like talking to children.

 

[Riffraff]

It seems like you are the one acting childish here, resorting to name calling when you know there is no good reason why India and China shouldn't be on board with this also.

How bout a global treaty, that limits the carbon emissions per capita to the same level for all nations.

Does that sound fair?

 

[Sidhe]

How bout a global treaty, that limits the carbon emissions per capita to the same level for all nations.

Does that sound fair?

Of course that's what is currently being offered, that would be fair, but the US would no doubt as it's currently run find some way to pass the buck, somehow.

Read the bold type in the OP.

 

[ShannonCT]

Nice. You take a statistic which can be compared between all countries and change it so that it can't.

Per capita shows how much, on average, each person uses. All countries can be compared against each other.

Per km² cannot be compared between countries as is dependant on population density. To compare all countries, you need to divide that number by the population density, which would actually give the emissions per capita. You can't compare statistics that can't be compared.

I could post up examples of total CO2 emissions. However, they cannot be compared. The USA would have a very large value because it's a large country. The UK would have a much lower value because it's a much smaller country. The total CO2 emissions is dependant on the total population of the country.

You can only compare the per capita data with each other or you take into account other factors like total population or population density.

My stats are certainly comparable. They are calculated the same way for each country. They aren't the one true way to asign responsibility for carbon emissions, but neither are yours. That countries like India and China have such huge populations is one reason that our world is in peril. Dividing your emissions by some big population doesn't somehow relieve you of your responsibility to the rest of the world.

The fact is this: China and India will soon both have total emissions that exceed those of the US. If they are not treated as equals in Kyoto, only being asked to reduce emissions voluntarily with incentives, their emissions are going to skyrocket, and global warming will get worse. Kyoto is a failed treaty.

 

[Riffraff]

Of course that's what is currently being offered, that would be fair, but the US would no doubt as it's currently run find some way to pass the buck, somehow.

Read the bold type in the OP.

I'm sure the offer of the EU is a lot more favorable to the US though. I think it would pretty much ignore the 'starting lead' of the US and simply take into account any changes as from now.

 

[Mercenary82]

How bout a global treaty, that limits the carbon emissions per capita to the same level for all nations.

Does that sound fair?

Good luck getting India and China to sign.

 

[Riffraff]

Good luck getting India and China to sign.

you do know the treaty I just proposed would be a disaster for the US (and the EU), whereas it probably wouldn't effect India and China at all...

 

[Mercenary82]

I didn't say it was fair, I just doubt India and China would sign any treaty.

 

[El_Machinae]

India and China are under great threat from climate change, due to their population distribution. They're motivated to see it curtailed. As well, economic pressure can be brought to bear to get their house in order, once we have our own house in order.

Nice. You take a statistic which can be compared between all countries and change it so that it can't.

Per capita shows how much, on average, each person uses. All countries can be compared against each other.

Per km² cannot be compared between countries as is dependant on population density.

I'll remind the audience that I'm person who's quite concerned about man-caused climate change.

That said, I think that surface area is a fair way of judging a country's CO2 emission. In fact, I think it's almost one of the best ways (controlled biomass is better). Our planet has a certain capacity of natually sequestering CO2, and that capacity is determind by biomass. Each country has a different amount of biomass in its jurisdiction, and should only be internationally responsible for CO2 emissions which are greater than their ability to sequester.

The judgement on each country should be how much CO2 they emit that's beyond their biomass's ability to resequester. Like Shannon points out, India shouldn't be able to pollute more merely because they've crammed a billion people in, for the same reason why I shouldn't get more bread per dollar just because I have 7 kids.

Sequestering ability is a resource each country has. This ability should be treated as a commodity that can be traded.

 

[Mise]

Lets not get sidetracked into an argument over which statistics makes your own country look better...

The point is, China has made positive moves towards an environmentally responsible energy policy, recently and historically. India hasn't, but I think international pressure will eventually take over. This international pressure MUST be truly international, and not just European. The USA, as the world's only superpower, must be seen to be taking more of a lead. The US is seen as an ideal towards which all developing nations strive. Thus, when the US embraces climate change, the rest of the world will follow suit. It's no good for the US to say that they'll do it if India and China do it -- the USA is the leader, and the rest of the world will follow. I'm glad that the EU is doing this, and back it 100%. But for there to be real, international change, the US must be on board.