Does Race exist?

[Lexicus]

Well, it is rather strange to think i am of the view that people of different skin tone are "sub-human"*.

I don't think that. But that is in essence what "race" means, not the simply observation that people have different skin tones.

Racism has been so prevalent in our society that Kyriakos tried to make a silly example here, but its actually true. Differentiating by skin tone really is just as silly as differentiating by height. The *******s in our history have programmed us via language and society to regard skin colour as a significant, real and obvious way to differentiate. This is **** that babies learn just by growing up and learning social norms. That is why is must be banished!

Incidentally, that God analogy you were using upthread: not quite on the mark. Using the example of a nobility, the concept of "noble" blood, makes it easy to see what is going on with race. No one with any sense today actually believes that some people were set above others by God, but it was believed for centuries and an entire social reality was created around that fiction. Whiteness today is a sort of mass aristocracy with unearned privileges ratified by the social structure. That doesn't mean "white people" are a biologically meaningful category, just as nobles in the 12th century were not qualitatively superior beings.

 

[red_elk]

The concept of race (in humans) has no good uses, few neutral uses and some awful uses that have made dark stains on history and could do so again.

Therefore, it should be discarded. Thats sensible, right?

So does the concept of identifying people as Jews and non-Jews. It also had some awful uses throughout the history.
The problem is we cannot discard the concept. But we can and should discard inappropriate uses.

 

[Senethro]

Incidentally, that God analogy you were using upthread: not quite on the mark. Using the example of a nobility, the concept of "noble" blood, makes it easy to see what is going on with race. No one with any sense today actually believes that some people were set above others by God, but it was believed for centuries and an entire social reality was created around that fiction. Whiteness today is a sort of mass aristocracy with unearned privileges ratified by the social structure. That doesn't mean "white people" are a biologically meaningful category, just as nobles in the 12th century were not qualitatively superior beings.

Yeah, I get that the analogy failed. What I was trying to show with it was that you can lack a belief in the reality of a concept, but still perform intellectual exercises with it without accepting it as valid. I was rolling my eyes at Berz saying if you are anti-racism you must believe in race.

 

[H4run]

So does the concept of identifying people as Jews and non-Jews. It also had some awful uses throughout the history.
The problem is we cannot discard the concept. But we can and should discard inappropriate uses.

Im sorry Red but I like to ask you a question, can I know your list example of race classification? Is it base on nation state or base on skin color? I will be happy if you answer this

 

[Archon_Wing]

I'm saying that almost every system of classification in use uses arbitrary standards to separate groups.

That doesn't mean they're all the same.

Inches and centimeters may also be arbitrary, but they have more relevance in observable reality than other arbitrary standards like race. And more importantly, there's really less motivation for bias there too. I don't think calling things birds had any agenda of Bird-ism, but I could be wrong.

historical baggage of the idea of race.

This term gets tossed around so much; and it's an attempt to downplay what actually happened. It a'int just any baggage; it's more like the world's biggest graveyard.

A failed marriage or six is baggage. A genocide or six is a bit more severe than that.

 

[brennan]

White people: ...
Also white people: ...

Amusing though it is that you keep doing the thing you claim is impossible and makes no sense, it would be nice if you could post without being racist.

 

[Hrothbern]

Of course! I like blue much better than white! I dont know why but it sound more noble!

Such a noble color blue is...

I had to improvise a bit

 

[El_Machinae]

I'm really enjoying this conversation. I don't quite understand, but you'll notice that I'm also not interjecting with any opinion.

So, I have a question: whether or not I deserve social censure for using the N-word in a contemptuous manner depends on my [clarified factor here]. And would knowing my ethnicity allow you to predict how I qualify for the factor you'll put into the square brackets? Is 'ethnicity' the correct word to use in my clarifying question?

Witness meeeeeee!

 

[brennan]

Well Chris Rock did it El M.

 

[H4run]

Witness meeeeeee!

Look, if race as a term is negated and scorn to oblivion as r16 said, then put in a museum as an artifact. The N word will be synonym for brother. Words meaning keep changing, expanding, shrinking relative to its time condition.

 

[Senethro]

What is it with that word and its endless allure to some.

 

[brennan]

The N word... or white people?

 

[H4run]

The N word... or white people?

I dont think Lexicus mentioned white people in order to undermine white racial group (is it ever used for that purpose?), he just stating the mentality that happened within the group that identified themselves as white. To boxes him as reversed racism I think (un)intentionally misunderstood him.

 

[red_elk]

Im sorry Red but I like to ask you a question, can I know your list example of race classification? Is it base on nation state or base on skin color? I will be happy if you answer this

I believe I already answered this question earlier in this thread.
My attitude to racial features is the same as to classifying people by hair or eye colors. It can be convenient if you need to describe somebody's visual appearance, it also may have medical use in rare cases. I don't have any "list of races" if you are asking about that, neither I ever needed one. But I can in most cases identify person I see as Black or Asian, and don't consider it any more "wrong" as identifying them as man/woman or blonde/brunette.

 

[brennan]

I dont think Lexicus mentioned white people in order to undermine white racial group (is it ever used for that purpose?), he just stating the mentality that happened within the group that identified themselves as white. To boxes him as reversed racism I think (un)intentionally misunderstood him.

Can we not be apologists for racism either?

 

[El_Machinae]

Look, if race as a term is negated and scorn to oblivion as r16 said, then put in a museum as an artifact. The N word will be synonym for brother. Words meaning keep changing, expanding, shrinking relative to its time condition.

This doesn't answer my question. Some people deserve social censure for using that word and others do not. Hell, that censure is so strong, we'd even overlook assault based on that censure, sometimes. What do we call the factor that allows someone to use (or not) that word, and am I using the word 'ethinicity' correctly when I say "knowing someone's ethnicity would allow you to predict whether they have that factor"?

 

[brennan]

The important factor is whether someone is actually racist, which is a trickier judgement than many people will admit.

 

[El_Machinae]

The important factor is whether someone is actually racist, which is a trickier judgement than many people will admit.

I'll see if other people agree with this answer. I don't think it's true. I think the deservedness of the social censure is mostly independent of whether the person is racist.

 

[Senethro]

I think some white people have an unhealthy fascination with the word and some other white people just can't stand to be told they can have every other word but not this one.

Just don't say it! Jeez!

 

[H4run]

I believe I already answered this question earlier in this thread.
My attitude to racial features is the same as to classifying people by hair or eye colors. It can be convenient if you need to describe somebody's visual appearance, it also may have medical use in rare cases. I don't have any "list of races" if you are asking about that, neither I ever needed one. But I can in most cases identify person I see as Black or Asian, and don't consider it any more "wrong" as identifying them as man/woman or blonde/brunette.

You mentioned the list, but you just hesitate, you mentioned Asian and Black as part of the list.

I think your classification pretty much shared similarity with what Hrothbern mentioned except for the blue means white, am I correct? let me quoted it again

And "ofc" the combinations of de Coubertin are purely coincidental: blue (Europe for blue blood), yellow (Asia), black (for Africans), green (Oceania), and red (indigenous North-America)

Can we not be apologists for racism either?

why should we? please tell me

This doesn't answer my question. Some people deserve social censure for using that word and others do not. Hell, that censure is so strong, we'd even overlook assault based on that censure, sometimes. What do we call the factor that allows someone to use (or not) that word, and am I using the word 'ethinicity' correctly when I say "knowing someone's ethnicity would allow you to predict whether they have that factor"?

Well here you go, lets say we start to discriminate people with red hair and called them "Ginger", we created a huge slave trade enterprise that specifically just to enslave these Ginger, and we use the word Ginger as derogatory word that equal to calling them a subhuman. While in other hand among the red hair the word Ginger echoes brotherhood, shared suffering, and they used these word to call themselves among each other.

Now after ginger slavery, the fact that red hair find it deeply condescending when blonde and brunet called them ginger, while having the opposite emotion when the other red hair said it, it doesn't mean the classification of human base on hair color is a reality, it just means it has its background history, it doesn't implied any biological reality of human classification.

When people already fully gave up hair based classification, and red hair doesn't feel being categorized by their hair color, so do the blonde doesn't feel they are anything special than the rest of the hair color, the word Ginger will lost its meaning.

How can it not be related?