Does the Ivy League use a quota system?

I'm not sure I have a problem with quotas being used to reflect current demographics. Just as the article says, the difference between a 1300 and a 1305 SAT is negligible to the extent that 1305 student isn't expected to have any more successful a career. So if your school puts out a disproportionate amount of the country's future leadership, why not ensure your school looks like the country rather than old white money?

Should there be a quota to reflect current demographics on the Olympics basketball team? The running team? Boxing team?

If Asians are studying more and performing better academically than everybody else, what the hell is wrong with having more Asians at the elite universities? What the hell is the point of enforcing this shallow and meaningless notion of diversity?

What is worrying about the article is precisely that, according to the author, race is being used to keep better qualified candidates out.
 
Getting back to the article itself, I found this passage interesting:

Karabel’s massive documentation—over 700 pages and 3000 endnotes—establishes the remarkable fact that America’s uniquely complex and subjective system of academic admissions actually arose as a means of covert ethnic tribal warfare. During the 1920s, the established Northeastern Anglo-Saxon elites who then dominated the Ivy League wished to sharply curtail the rapidly growing numbers of Jewish students, but their initial attempts to impose simple numerical quotas provoked enormous controversy and faculty opposition.10 Therefore, the approach subsequently taken by Harvard President A. Lawrence Lowell and his peers was to transform the admissions process from a simple objective test of academic merit into a complex and holistic consideration of all aspects of each individual applicant; the resulting opacity permitted the admission or rejection of any given applicant, allowing the ethnicity of the student body to be shaped as desired. As a consequence, university leaders could honestly deny the existence of any racial or religious quotas, while still managing to reduce Jewish enrollment to a much lower level, and thereafter hold it almost constant during the decades which followed.11 For example, the Jewish portion of Harvard’s entering class dropped from nearly 30 percent in 1925 to 15 percent the following year and remained roughly static until the period of the Second World War.12

I've had many discussions with American leftists on this board about the "holistic" approach of American universities, which they defend and I always regarded as subjective, unfair and discriminatory. Turns out it was specifically designed to be all of those things.

The author offers praise for the admission criteria used by the Grandes Écoles of France and top universities of Northern Europe. Well, they use the simplest and fairest possible criteria, pure academic performance in the form of test scores. The same as the Ivy League unis did before they decided there were too many Jews (and now too many Asians).

Later in the essay, the author goes on to criticize this criteria by essentially saying that:

a)it would force more American kids to study as hard and obsessively as Asians;
b)it would keep people whose primary talent is sports or arts related out of the top universities.

Both of these arguments suck. It would be a good thing for the US if more kids were studying like East Asians (and Europeans for that matter). And this mixing of sports and university so typical of the US is alien to the rest of the world. People whose primary talent is playing football shouldn't go to Harvard, period.
His article starts by praising the top European and Asian universities for their strictly meritocratic admission policy and then discards the very same policy for the US.

The article goes downhill from there, and his suggestion of an "inner and outer ring" is rather lunatic in my opinion.

I've always maintained that pure standardized tests are the cleanest, fairest way to select candidates for universities. It's better to be left out because some guy scored 0.005 more than you then to be left out because you belong to the wrong race or class.

Why not simply copy the fine admission criteria already used with great success in other countries instead of making up an untested and bizarre new criteria? What Ron Unz suggests is the opposite of conservative wisdom (seek solutions that already exist before inventing new ones); it's social engineering for the sake of social engineering.
 
A very puzzling passage I forgot to comment:

These same problems would also manifest themselves in an admissions system based on strict meritocracy as adjusted by socio-economic status, which Richard Kahlenberg prominently advocated in his 1996 book The Remedy, and various other writings. Although this approach has always seemed reasonably attractive to me and the results would certainly provide more socio-economical balance than straight meritocracy, other “diversity” enhancements might be minimal. We should remember that a significant fraction of our Asian immigrant population combines very low socio-economic status with extremely strong academic performance and educational focus, so it seems likely that this small group would capture a hugely disproportionate share of all admissions spots influenced by these modifying factors, which may or may not be fully realized by advocates of this approach.

OK, so the logic of this "merit adjusted by socio-economic status" admission criteria (Ie, socio-economic AA) is that poorer people who score less than rich people may have more innate talent, as they face barriers to getting a good education. The author acknowledges that Asians typically combine a below-average socio-economic background with an above-average academic performance, and so would hugely dominate any economics-based AA admission. Instead of taking this as evidence that maybe a purely performance-based approach is indeed preferable, the author goes on to imagine another bizarre admission criteria!
 
Should there be a quota to reflect current demographics on the Olympics basketball team? The running team? Boxing team?

If Asians are studying more and performing better academically than everybody else, what the hell is wrong with having more Asians at the elite universities? What the hell is the point of enforcing this shallow and meaningless notion of diversity?

What is worrying about the article is precisely that, according to the author, race is being used to keep better qualified candidates out.

If there's no way to separate two candidates based on their achievements, or that their achievements indicate they'll be equally successful with an Ivy League degree, why not use race as a factor? Perhaps a true lottery would also work.

Oh, the article's a bit disturbing. But in a general sense, I'm not sure why AA based on race is any worse than AA based on volunteer work, civic work or military service
 
If there's no way to separate two candidates based on their achievements, or that their achievements indicate they'll be equally successful with an Ivy League degree, why not use race as a factor? Perhaps a true lottery would also work.

Oh, the article's a bit disturbing. But in a general sense, I'm not sure why AA based on race is any worse than AA based on volunteer work, civic work or military service

If two candidates tied in last place among the approved score exactly the same on the admission tests (which is very rare, at least around here), then randomly choosing one is OK. That's not what the author suggests, though.

My point was that elite universities should not necessarily reflect the overall demographics. They should reflect the demographics of the top academic performers, much like the Olympics basketball team should reflect the demographics of ghe top basketball players. If an ethnic group has a disproportional share of one of those demographics, it' only fair that they'll also have a disporportional share in the institution that picks the best.
 
But access to a place on an Olympic sports team is not necessary to achieve vocational success, and thus upward mobility. Olympic teams do not exist for the benefit of their populations.

Take professional teams. Access to the top professional teams is required for vocational success of athletes. Should there be a racial quota at the LA Lakers or Chicago Bulls, to make sure 65% of the players are non-hispanic white and some 13% are Latin American?

I don't think your conclusion follows from your premise. I don't see any necessity of forcing every institution to match the distribution of arbitrarily and illogically defined racial divisions.
 
I guess there's different reasoning between athletic team and universities. For athletic team, the profit is ad-hoc, that is to say, the players bring in merit by their own performance. While in the education case, the benefit of the university is not limited to the contribution of enrolled students, thus they want more diversity, thus they have influence over wider interest groups.
 
I guess there's different reasoning between athletic team and universities. For athletic team, the profit is ad-hoc, that is to say, the players bring in merit by their own performance. While in the education case, the benefit of the university is not limited to the contribution of enrolled students, thus they want more diversity, thus they have influence over wider interest groups.

I disagree entirely. I don't subscribe to the notion that ethnic origin determines one's outlook or even culture; in other words, I don't think this is an appropriate criteria if the goal is to increase diversity in any meaningful way.

What the universities really want, what will really benefit them (as in getting more important research done, more papers published on prestigious publications, more prizes won) is to have the most academically talented students. The best way to measure academic talent we've come up with are standardized tests. Indeed, that's the criteria used in places that, unlike the USA, don't want to discriminate people because of their ethnicity.
 
I still haven't read the whole thing, more stuff to do. But I do want to drop a comment on this:

What the universities really want, what will really benefit them (as in getting more important research done, more papers published on prestigious publications, more prizes won) is to have the most academically talented students.

What some people in universities want is not necessarily what is socially more desirable. Furthermore, what is good for one university is also not necessarily good for the whole higher education system. Sure, universities as institutions have reasons to "compete for talent" in the expectation of turning that talent into prestige. But they also have a mission to preserve, spread, and (in the case of research universities) generate knowledge.
Regarding the goal of spreading knowledge, which arguably is the most important, we can probably agree that the more talented their students, the easier it will be to spread knowledge to them. But making their job easier doesn't mean they're achievable more. Taking the easy route of selecting only the "brightest" undermines the job of spreading and preserving knowledge as widely as possible within society.
Regarding research, it may benefit from that kind of selection. But it may lose from it also, if it creates a more uniform "culture" within the university that becomes too inclined to reject "unorthodox" thinking.

Competition for talent and prestige can be simply a competition for funding. Getting "more talent" may get some elite university for funding. Does it get the whole education system more funding? Or does it just shift it around, risking that those which get more end up squandering in luxurious campuses just for the sake of attracting more of the "elite"? Ir other words, can this competition (I never understood why is competition so praised, expect that it serves as an excuse for all kinds of things) be turning into waste?
 
Neither does a private school like Harvard.
But they assume the mantels of the state. Which fundamentally makes them enemies of the state, or its masters.
 
I still haven't read the whole thing, more stuff to do. But I do want to drop a comment on this:



What some people in universities want is not necessarily what is socially more desirable. Furthermore, what is good for one university is also not necessarily good for the whole higher education system. Sure, universities as institutions have reasons to "compete for talent" in the expectation of turning that talent into prestige. But they also have a mission to preserve, spread, and (in the case of research universities) generate knowledge.
Regarding the goal of spreading knowledge, which arguably is the most important, we can probably agree that the more talented their students, the easier it will be to spread knowledge to them. But making their job easier doesn't mean they're achievable more. Taking the easy route of selecting only the "brightest" undermines the job of spreading and preserving knowledge as widely as possible within society.
Regarding research, it may benefit from that kind of selection. But it may lose from it also, if it creates a more uniform "culture" within the university that becomes too inclined to reject "unorthodox" thinking.

Competition for talent and prestige can be simply a competition for funding. Getting "more talent" may get some elite university for funding. Does it get the whole education system more funding? Or does it just shift it around, risking that those which get more end up squandering in luxurious campuses just for the sake of attracting more of the "elite"? Ir other words, can this competition (I never understood why is competition so praised, expect that it serves as an excuse for all kinds of things) be turning into waste?

Well, you just input some of "social responsibility" into the university system to help spread general education to the public. Thus meritocracy only cherry picked the most competitive student, thus reduces the availability to the general public.

However, I have another proof to support your idea in a very different manner and amoral POV. Suppose an extreme racist/elitist case, only 1% people have 99% talents. Do we use meritocracy methods to elitize our education system, or do we setup a lottery system/quota system/any stupid non-meritocratic system?

The first one is more productive, but democracy and human rights defense will only generate latter.

We can try to have an elitist/meritocratic education system, a public education system, and a democratic administration system. But we cannot have all three. An elitist education system means general mass (not competitive) will not benefit from public education while paying tax money to support it. So they will vote against it. To run an elitist education with public fund is undemocratic in nature. If you deprive people's right of education because they're stupid, don't expect them pay the education related tax willingly. (Unless they're stupid enough so they cannot tell)

Also, continues from the "democratic" line, university is willingly to recruit students with less academic competitiveness from underrepresented community/groups in the university, because university will generate positive PR among that certain underrepresented group. Thus university will generate a stronger alumni network in order to promote university's interests.
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Personally, from the POV of Asian student in US, I certainly will benefit from a genuine elitist/meritocratic system, but it is not viable in any possible way. Unfortunately, those Asian friends of mine gullibility think that abolishing quota and stopping those underrepresented minority will help Asians getting more seats in the education. They couldn't be more wrong. Those seats from driven out minority, will be rednecks' properties.
 
I have found that Ivy League degrees hold a certain amount of weight in the Northeast, especially on Wall Street. But in other places where they are usually extremely rare, not so much.

I think the advantage of having rich and powerful parents that frequently get you into Ivy League schools in the first place are vastly more important in eventually becoming rich and powerful yourself. It's not what you know or where your class ring is from. It is who you know.

Of course, hanging out with the progeny of such people for four years is going to open a lot of doors that may otherwise remain closed. But when push comes to shove, it's still going to come down to who your parents and grandparents are.
 
That you do. Even Bill Gates owes his success to his rich mom meeting the CEO of IBM at a cocktail party. That was after meeting Steve Ballmer at Harvard before he dropped out.
 
I have found that Ivy League degrees hold a certain amount of weight in the Northeast, especially on Wall Street and Washington DC. But in other places where they are usually extremely rare, not so much.

I think the advantage of having rich and powerful parents that frequently get you into Ivy League schools in the first place are vastly more important in eventually becoming rich and powerful yourself. It's not what you know or where your class ring is from. It is who you know.

Of course, hanging out with the progeny of such people for four years is going to open a lot of doors that may otherwise remain closed. But when push comes to shove, it's still going to come down to who your parents and grandparents are.

Fixed that for ya ;D
 
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