Dont buy Civ5 : Dont be the sheep

[SalmonSoil]

I don't really see any sign that Firaxis is screwing over the hard core fans at all with civ 5....

 

[2K Elizabeth]

Customers want to have to apply to Steam?


Sure.


This expansion thing seems not to include Firaxis, does it?

Furthermore, if you want to have a real dialogue, what about answering the questions raised in this thread "Civilization 5 Steamworks questions/concerns for inclusion in the FAQ"?

Seems to have started on May, 25th. Answers still outstanding. Any answers, that is.


Well, in the case of Civ5 we seem to have a third party involved, don't we?
If they go under, what about "having your game"?

I know that Greg's been talking with you guys a lot about the Steam FAQ - and I know he anticipated it by end of June and it's taking a bit longer, but it's still on its way. In the meantime, he's answered a couple of your questions (not all) and some of them are Valve's domain. But as he's said, it's en route.

 

[Gamemaster77]

Frankly, I don't much care if I'm a sheep. I buy games because they are fun to play, not to manage the company.

 

[PieceOfMind]

I don't know about other companies or other products, but at 2K Games, the player is the customer. And we're not expanding the community team to market at you - we're expanding so we have resources for you to go to and have a real dialogue.

Our gamers have been my number one priority since I started this gig.

Who are the gamers you speak of? Most of the gamers around here feel there has been very little communication and certainly no real dialogue. I appreciate you and Greg are here to give us snippets of info, answer some questions, announce podcasts and put us in endless anticipation of an ever elusive FAQ, but it's hardly what I call real dialogue. It is much easier to interpret it as part of a marketing campaign, which to be clear is IMO ok because you are, after all, representatives of 2K whose priorities are, after gamers, selling the game.

If this is real dialogue and we are having a conversation, can you or Greg please tell us some simple things like what it is you have heard or read from the community that has been taken on board? What parts of the conversation have Firaxis and 2K been listening to?

Also, if this is a conversation, rather than everyone here asking all the questions do you have any questions to ask the community? Almost everyone here wants to help make the game successful but people don't have much to discuss other than whether we support or don't support steam.

 

[Gamemaster77]

Who are the gamers you speak of? Most of the gamers around here feel there has been very little communication and certainly no real dialogue. I appreciate you and Greg are here to give us snippets of info, answer some questions, announce podcasts and put us in endless anticipation of an ever elusive FAQ, but it's hardly what I call real dialogue. It is much easier to interpret it as part of a marketing campaign, which to be clear is IMO ok because you are, after all, representatives of 2K whose priorities are, after gamers, selling the game.

If this is real dialogue and we are having a conversation, can you or Greg please tell us some simple things like what it is you have heard or read from the community that has been taken on board? What parts of the conversation have Firaxis and 2K been listening to?

Also, if this is a conversation, rather than everyone here asking all the questions do you have any questions to ask the community? Almost everyone here wants to help make the game successful but people don't have much to discuss other than whether we support or don't support steam.

Exactly. Only small bits are shown every now and then. I mean you both only have just over 100 posts. However 2K Greg and Elizabeth are probably only allowed to say certain things and must get it approved. However, if that is not the case, could you please confirm that, otherwise I'll assume that you can't comment.

 

[evrett37]

I don't know about other companies or other products, but at 2K Games, the player is the customer. And we're not expanding the community team to market at you - we're expanding so we have resources for you to go to and have a real dialogue.

Our gamers have been my number one priority since I started this gig.

Your not walking your talk Greg. If 2k or Firaxis wanted to have a dialog with the "consumer" then there would be weekly dialog and organized discussions with the community. There would be a community relational liason that literally works every day with the devs at their office not 2000 miles away. What is the point of arranging this "real" dialog now that the game is being released in 75 days?

That isnt happening. You have been advertising at us not dialoging with us. And your doing things this way because the decision have already been made and 2k/Firaxis didnt feel players were important enough to be a part of it.

Its easy to say the player is the priority but I see 2K/Firaxis telling, since we dont have a scientific poll lets call it a large chunk of the population here that you are fine with them walking away from the game. Someone in a conference room decided to cull the herd and ignore their dissatisfaction because once you get the sheep plugged in to the social networking you start replacing those customers with repeats and doubling the number.

 

[Me,myself,and,I]

Mmmmm.... [smack smack] Lamb chops.

So if two guys on the Internet say it then it must be true? I know I can find two people on the Internet that think Bush wouldn't have been elected if it weren't for air conditioning, and can probably find two people who think the sky is green.

 

[KMRblue1027]

Mmmmm.... [smack smack] Lamb chops.

So if two guys on the Internet say it then it must be true? I know I can find two people on the Internet that think Bush wouldn't have been elected if it weren't for air conditioning, and can probably find two people who think the sky is green.

No the sky is Orange!
Anyway... I can see some logic of both sides, but I can't really comment considering the fact that the reason I can't get Civ 5 isn't the Steam BS or anything else it's the fact that i can't run it most likely

 

[bjbrains]

I'm still waiting to hear why Everett thinks he should be taken seriously after that protest fakeout. And I'm pretty sure not buying Civ 5 will *not* help your cause.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

I saw a blog post that explained the relationship between players and developers very well. The article is about Activision-Blizzard and wow but its the same problem we have with 2k/Firaxis

http://dechionsplace.wordpress.com/2010/07/09/blizzard-likes-farmville-too-bad-we-are-the-sheep/

Businesses make their money by keeping their customers happy.

What a lot of people don’t realize (or choose to forget) is that the player is not the customer.

The players of Blizzard games (or any company’s games for that matter) are no more the customer than the sheep are the shepherds customer.

They are the resource, the source of the profit.

You, me, my kids, everyone that plays the game are just part of Blizzards vast herd of sheep.

Like the sheep, players need to be fed and maintained just enough shiny new things to keep us nice and docile so that we are still around, still making wool (or paying $15 a month as the case might be).

The stockholders of the company are the real customers.

When you are wondering why in the hell they come up with ideas remember a lot depends on your point of view.

Just as a Shepard would gladly feed a few sheep to the wolves if it ment getting thousands more in return, so Blizzard has no problem losing a few of its long term customers in exchange for a whole lot of new ones.

I feel this is exactly how 2k-Firaxis has treated the longtime fans of Civ. We are here to be fed, maintained and exploited as a resource. They are not interested in our high bar threshold so much as our low and even then I'm guesing they are willing to cull some of the herd if it serves their plans. The relationship is completely one sided and there is no better evidence o this than the lack of communication from the developer. They dont send us a communicator - they send us a marketing advertiser who distributes information in"exclusive" blurbs. It hasnt always been this way. The 2k marketing reps are a sign of the illness, if you will, that has come to the body of civ's design. A change in the paradigm from games for gamers to games for mass appeal and profit.

One of the mods wrote that this forum is here to support the game we love. Sometimes, if you truly love something, you have to kick it out the door and let it go clean itself up. Tough love is also a kind of love and if we buy Civ 5 we are supporting the unhealthy relationship, disfunctional communication style and greedy, quantity over quality plan for the future. Its selfish to say we need the game so much that we will allow this toxic posion to blossom in its governance.

If you love Civ - dont buy Civ 5

So how did that "mass" protest of yours go evrett? I notice that we haven't heard from you for a few weeks. Can we assume that you only just got released from jail for Criminal Trespass, as most of us guessed would happen?

 

[Depravo]

You mean... big corporations don't care about me, my individual foibles and dreams? They only want my money?

Those bastards. I had no idea. But then I was just rescued from a cave. On the Moon.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

People always doomsay during a game's development. It's one of the reasons why many companies choose to keep their customers-to-be in the dark until imminent release.

Frankly, would've been nice if Firaxis had done the same.



Just in case anyone ignores the 2008 figures, PC revenues have doubled while all others except for DS have dropped. I'd say that's partly due to Steam and other gaming distribution platforms. It's not all doom and gloom with the PC platform as it makes it out to be at first glance.

You're dead right. I remember being bored half-to-death by people at these forums saying how *awful* Civ4 was going to be-how it would be a total failure, would "ruin" the franchise etc etc. Guess what, I seem to recall that their sales of Civ4 utterly eclipsed those of Civ3 (which really *was* a disappointment for many hard-core fans). Given the enormous success of Civ4-especially in the light of all the disparaging comments made during development by forum members, I'm just a little more willing to cut Firaxis/2K a little more slack. Sure, they probably only really see me as "another customer" but-guess what-that pretty much stands for every single large business in the Western World. So unless you plan on becoming an Amish, I suggest that these attacks on Firaxis/2K are both unrealistic & self-indulgent.

Aussie.

 

[AfterShafter]

I love sheep... all that food and a bit of money on the side... Nothing better than a few sheep in one of those hilly cities that needs food. I vote for being a sheep.

 

[Depravo]

I love sheep... all that food and a bit of money on the side... Nothing better than a few sheep in one of those hilly cities that needs food. I vote for being a sheep.

Moderator Action: Warning for inappropriate content

 

[Dale]

I saw a blog post that explained the relationship between players and developers very well. The article is about Activision-Blizzard and wow but its the same problem we have with 2k/Firaxis

http://dechionsplace.wordpress.com/2010/07/09/blizzard-likes-farmville-too-bad-we-are-the-sheep/

Businesses make their money by keeping their customers happy.

What a lot of people don’t realize (or choose to forget) is that the player is not the customer.

The players of Blizzard games (or any company’s games for that matter) are no more the customer than the sheep are the shepherds customer.

They are the resource, the source of the profit.

You, me, my kids, everyone that plays the game are just part of Blizzards vast herd of sheep.

Like the sheep, players need to be fed and maintained just enough shiny new things to keep us nice and docile so that we are still around, still making wool (or paying $15 a month as the case might be).

The stockholders of the company are the real customers.

When you are wondering why in the hell they come up with ideas remember a lot depends on your point of view.

Just as a Shepard would gladly feed a few sheep to the wolves if it ment getting thousands more in return, so Blizzard has no problem losing a few of its long term customers in exchange for a whole lot of new ones.

I feel this is exactly how 2k-Firaxis has treated the longtime fans of Civ. We are here to be fed, maintained and exploited as a resource. They are not interested in our high bar threshold so much as our low and even then I'm guesing they are willing to cull some of the herd if it serves their plans. The relationship is completely one sided and there is no better evidence o this than the lack of communication from the developer. They dont send us a communicator - they send us a marketing advertiser who distributes information in"exclusive" blurbs. It hasnt always been this way. The 2k marketing reps are a sign of the illness, if you will, that has come to the body of civ's design. A change in the paradigm from games for gamers to games for mass appeal and profit.

One of the mods wrote that this forum is here to support the game we love. Sometimes, if you truly love something, you have to kick it out the door and let it go clean itself up. Tough love is also a kind of love and if we buy Civ 5 we are supporting the unhealthy relationship, disfunctional communication style and greedy, quantity over quality plan for the future. Its selfish to say we need the game so much that we will allow this toxic posion to blossom in its governance.

If you love Civ - dont buy Civ 5

Well that confirms you as a HalfLotus DL.

 

[Dale]

Your not walking your talk Greg. If 2k or Firaxis wanted to have a dialog with the "consumer" then there would be weekly dialog and organized discussions with the community. There would be a community relational liason that literally works every day with the devs at their office not 2000 miles away. What is the point of arranging this "real" dialog now that the game is being released in 75 days?

That isnt happening. You have been advertising at us not dialoging with us. And your doing things this way because the decision have already been made and 2k/Firaxis didnt feel players were important enough to be a part of it.

Its easy to say the player is the priority but I see 2K/Firaxis telling, since we dont have a scientific poll lets call it a large chunk of the population here that you are fine with them walking away from the game. Someone in a conference room decided to cull the herd and ignore their dissatisfaction because once you get the sheep plugged in to the social networking you start replacing those customers with repeats and doubling the number.

Dialog with the consumer? I was involved with Civ4 dev from March 2005 till release (plus for the expansions). Look through the credits of Civ4 and you will see many folks "from the community" involved in the development of Civ4 and XP's. And I can tell you that it wasn't just beta testing. We were there for a long time before beta helping to shape Civ4.

I bet this is happening for Civ5 too. They are listening to the community, through the "leaders" they have picked years ago to represent it.

 

[Provost Martin]

If it's a good game it's not going to flop, no matter how evil some may think Steam and 2K Games are.

 

[Commander Bello]

You're dead right. I remember being bored half-to-death by people at these forums saying how *awful* Civ4 was going to be-how it would be a total failure, would "ruin" the franchise etc etc. (and so on, and so on)

Well, I remember those discussions as well.

Seems to me that you have been one of the defenders of the "suicide siege weapons" at that time, arguing how they would solve the problem of SoDs, haven't you?

And, btw, Civ4 has become good because of the modifications, if you ask me.
The last unmodified Civ4 (or WL, or BTS) game I seem to have played in November 2005, if memory serves me correctly.

Dialog with the consumer? I was involved with Civ4 dev from March 2005 till release (plus for the expansions). Look through the credits of Civ4 and you will see many folks "from the community" involved in the development of Civ4 and XP's. And I can tell you that it wasn't just beta testing. We were there for a long time before beta helping to shape Civ4.

I bet this is happening for Civ5 too. They are listening to the community, through the "leaders" they have picked years ago to represent it.

"Dialogue" as far as this subforum is concerned and as far as Elizabeth's statement is put, seems to mean picking the questions of the fans (actually customers, who later on will pay the bills of 2k/Firaxis) and answering them in reasonable time and quality.

These answers we are waiting for.
For some questions this may be understandable, although others have bee so basic that the thunderous silence of 2K carries a message by itself.

 

[wandum]

I really don't understand why you took such an attitude towards civilization and, in case you didn't noticed, your arguments lack much consistency. The process is much more simple than you think, you see it works like this: I see a game I know I will like and I will pay 50$ for having it, so I pay the money and have fun with the game. I don't see what's wrong with that? If you had to boycott every single company that works a bit differently that you would like it to be, you would probably starve to death.

IMO, next thing you should do is become an emo kid and complain about eve
rything else

 

[12agnar0k]

What a bad analogy, "the shareholders are the customers" what are you basing this on, the ridiclious assumption that "a business exists to make its customers happy", that is nonsense.

A business exists to make money, and keep its shareholders happy, and provide a product or service customers will be attracted to and buy, technically the product can be utter trash, all it needs is a shiny box so it sells, after this point a custom is obtained and money is made, the game only has quality and playability if the Business wants to attrack the same customer back for more products. If the Business wishes to make the customer angry it will not cease to exist, merely need to find new customers. So no a Business does not exist to make its customers happy, it exists for profit to keep its shareholders happy.

I think I have said enough on this redicilious topic.
Stop trying to boycott the game, you will fail, most people will buy the game even if they have doubts and a hell of a lot more people will buy the game for the first time than will "moap about and not get it".

Honhestly some of you people "CHANGE????!!!!!! I DONT LIKE CHANGE" "I want Civ5 to be exactly like civ4 and changed in no way at all, not the delivery system, not the content, nothing I WANT MY!!!!! GAME BACK"
Bunch of whiners.