Double Your Pleasure

[Saxman]

Hi, guys. First wanted to say that I think the mod is superb, and has made Civ3 my first game of choice once more. Bear in mind that I'm not Civ-modding fluent, so my question may be unbelievably dumb.

After a clean install of Civ3, 1.21f patch, and DyP 0.3, the game runs fine, except that the new building pictures and descriptions are not visible in the city screen or the civlopedia. New unit pictures do seem to appear (at least, horse archer and crusader do), but I forgot to check descriptions in the civlopedia. Is there something damn obvious I'm doing wrong, or does the mod not include those functions? (I ask because I read a post about some of the descriptions being "too long", which didn't square with what I have.)

I'll try a fresh install and add the 0.32 patch to the mix, in case that fixes it. It's a fantastic mod in any case, but alt-tabbing out to check what things do is very inconvenient, and I can't help but think that I must have done something obvious wrong.

Be seeing you,

Saxman

 

[Isak]

Saxman:

You're not doing anything wrong, the descriptions for the civilopedia are not finished yet - I'm hard at work trying to get them finished within the next couple of days. Most of the Icons should show up after you install v.0.3.2, though (as noted above) a few still have some problems - but it is the intention that they should all be included in the 'Final' version of the mod (whenever that is released) - In the mean time, just keep on checking this thread, and the webpage, and eventually everything will be fixed.

Thanks for joining the crowd - hope you enjoy your stay

[Edit: Didn't see your sig at first - just have to say it's nice to see a Zappa quote around here ]

 

[pjm]

hey guys good job on the mod.
is there any way you can change the resource icons ? make them more noticeable by putting a letter on top of the icon in which it stands for : iron = i .
the reason why i mention it because TIMBER resembles a small mountain, its hard to see sometimes.

 

[NightStorm]

Deleted - See Next Post

 

[NightStorm]

Originally posted by pjm
hey guys good job on the mod.
is there any way you can change the resource icons ? make them more noticeable by putting a letter on top of the icon in which it stands for : iron = i .
the reason why i mention it because TIMBER resembles a small mountain, its hard to see sometimes.

You can do anything you wish to the resources. For example, I change some of the actual icons (my replacements are highlighted for effect - see attached image [DON'T DO THIS IN THE ACTUAL FILE].) BTW Kal-el, don't start! I know you don't see alot of wine sitting on the ground or alot of bear skin rugs in the forest but I like the images! I especially like my marble image. *hint hint*

All you need is a graphics program that can read .pcx files, such as Paint Shop Pro, which is what I used to create all the buildings. Open up the file Civilization\Art\resources.pcx. Everything is laid out very self-explanatory like in the file. Just remember, the background color MUST be the very last palette entry and the border color MUST be the next to the last. In other words, don't mess with or use the background or border colors.

Enjoy!

 

[pjm]

wow ! a really good job on the mod .
a suggestions on the mod . to many resources at once , im at 800 bc right know and i have everything at my disposal.
meaning :iron,copper,timber,sheep,stone,insense,horse,goldand mable. all in my little area . i think that needs to tweak so one civ doesnt get all those resources in one little area.

 

[NightStorm]

Originally posted by pjm
wow ! a really good job on the mod .
a suggestions on the mod . to many resources at once , im at 800 bc right know and i have everything at my disposal.
meaning :iron,copper,timber,sheep,stone,insense,horse,goldand mable. all in my little area . i think that needs to tweak so one civ doesnt get all those resources in one little area.

That is deliberate. The reasoning behind that is so that you can plan the placement of your cities better. Historically, cities were only built near resources, be it food, minerals, etc. Even though you can see the resources, you can't do anything with them until you learn certain techs (even if it does say "You have completed a road yada yada yada etc. etc. etc.")

In a normal game, you would build your city and then they would appear, so you would still have the same resources. Kal-el just opted to show them early so you can plan your kingdom better. Hope this explains it. If I'm wrong, I'm sure Kal-el will correct me. Of course, I may have to retaliate if he does.

 

[RobO]

Am I the only one playing this mod? Or perhaps I'm the only one who thinks there's too much money available during the ancient age? After all, we do want people to have an incentive to buy marketplaces, banks etc. It would also be good if you couldn't just set your science rate at 60% at start and then ignore it until you changed government.

I did some experiments, and they are hereby freely available for Kal-el to use. I experimented with the number of supported units during despotism (same for all city sizes) and the support cost per unit.

Setting the number of supported units to 2 (it was 4) and the cost to 2 forces me to reduce the science rate at times, which is good. It might be problematic right at start, where 5 units (1 worker, 3 warrior/brave/scout/ranger, 1 settler) will cost 6 gold, which is just about what the capital wil produce. There seems to be a bug in 1.21 - when I reduced the science to 0 or 10% it threw it back up to 40% each turn - but once you get a few cities going, you're basically OK. I'm not sure how this would work if you staged a war, though. It would certainly put a premium on occupying, not razing, cities, as they will save you a lot of money by supporting units. I also fear that the AI has trouble handling this.

3 supported units at a cost of 2 will solve the startup problem, but once you have a few cities you won't have any serious support costs.

Keeping the cost at 1 you might reduce the number of supported units to 1. 2 is comfortable, 1 is more of a challenge. I did not have to reduce my science rate from 60% in any of those cases, though.

Kal-el, you will have to decide which way to go (if any). Opinions are ofc. still welcome if anybody other than me really are playing this (what a shame to miss out on such a great mod )

 

[RobO]

Originally posted by pjm
hey guys good job on the mod.
is there any way you can change the resource icons ? make them more noticeable by putting a letter on top of the icon in which it stands for : iron = i .
the reason why i mention it because TIMBER resembles a small mountain, its hard to see sometimes.

Hi pjm.

I added some on the luxuries (should be on the previous page) but decided against adding info on the strategic resources. I don't need them, but I would have chosen a shield if I had done so. Feel free to do it yourself, though.

Btw, I actually think the "original" marble looks great on the map. I tried modifying the stone, but failed to make a better graphic.

 

[NightStorm]

Originally posted by RobO
Btw, I actually think the "original" marble looks great on the map. I tried modifying the stone, but failed to make a better graphic.

Looks good either way, personal preference I guess. Was showing edits to get point across.

 

[Ganjaman]

I just played an entire game no crashes and the mod looks great. Good work guys. A few things that have probably been mentioned but I dont want to read 22 pages. I am making way too much money early on. Definately need to at least double all costs...production and science in the Industrial and Modern ages. Wondering why unit support costs for the democracies have been lowered to 1. I think you should allow fixed wing aircraft to destroy naval units and the helicopter gunship to destroy land units. Maybe make all treaded vehicles (tanks apcs and mech infantry) wheeled and unable to airlift so that they can only be transported by the air carrier and by sea. Also the AI seems to have difficulty using the penguin and mines. I dont know if this was just peculiar to my game or if others have noticed it. Anyway, excellent mod. One last thing, regarding the merchant, caravan and Freight...good idea but I think that they should not require any strategic resources too build. I am not sure but I believe that if for example you dont have any oil, you would not be able to build freight but would then have the option of building caravans which only require horses. This would allow for rushing wonders very cheaply in the later ages. I might be wrong as I changed it in my game but I think thats how it would work.

 

[Saxman]

Thanks, Isak, and not just for the information. It is an excellent mod, and I'll just print out the new civlopedia info so that I have it handy when I play. The reason for my confusion may be that I checked in the .txt files, and found what looked like full descriptions of the new units and buildings, so I assumed they weren't showing up because of an error. In any event, good to be straightened out.

If I had any comments, I'd like to say that I got smacked around by the Zulus early because I mistook their Braves for Scouts - my fault, probably, but other lurkers may be having the same problem. There is a lot of money around in the early stages, I agree, although the AI seems to spend it far more than me. But it's a fantastic mod, and my bungling shouldn't be construed as criticism. Full speed ahead, and thanks for the entertainment.

Be seeing you,

Saxman

 

[Kal-el]

Hello everybody,

Sorry I have been busy with life.

Nightstorm,

I am glad you like my alternative marble image. You don’t know how long I spent looking for that. It was very difficult to find a decent image of a marble column.

RobO,

originally emailed by RobO
I tried your revised settings and still had too much money. I entered the 2nd era around 100BC, which should be around 500AD historically AFAIK. I will try the following changes:

Desert from 0/1/1 - 1/1/1 to 0/1/0 - 0/1/1
Plains from 2/1/1 - 1/1/1 to 2/1/0 - 1/1/1
Sea from 1/1/1 - 0/0/0 to 1/0/1 - 0/0/0
Timber from 0/1/1 to 0/2/0
Gems from 0/1/4 to 0/1/3
Tobacco from 0/0/3 to 0/0/2

I like the changes you are making here, except for the timber and maybe instead of Gems dropping in value it should be Gold and Silver to 0/1/3 and 0/1/2 respectively they were originally 0/0/4 and 0/1/3. What do you think. I think this will accomplish what we are trying to do and keep Gems more valuable than Gold.

The money issue is definitley a major concern. Please keep thining about this issue.

originally emailed by RobO
I tried those changes, and it didn't make a lot of difference. I still have a lot of money. It might be related to the lack of upkeep for Despotism, I'm not sure what the original setting was for that.

Those are the original upkeep costs for despotism. But I like your idea about raising the costs to 2. you’re right it does provide for greater flexibility in the various govts. Which is one of the main goals of the mod, creating options and forcing players to make choices.

originally posted by Isak
It's because the BLDG_ codes in the Bic don't correspond to the ones in the Pediaicons.txt - I sent Kal-El an updated bic with the changed names, after I fixed the Civilopedia, but obviously he decided not to use it.

I had already made a lot of changes to my bic and didn’t realize that you had made those specific changes. I will accept a temporary cut in pay.

originally posted by Nightstorm
WOW! I just spent the last three hours playing v0.3.1, and let me tell you, FOOD UNDER DESPOTISM SUCKS!!!

Like RobO said, you need a bonus tile or a flood plain. Move your tribe around to try and find a decent location for your starting city. Most nations started out as nomadic wanderers until they migrated into areas that could support large settlements.

By the way, your explanation of why the resources are visible earlier is wonderful. Here is a little more on the subject. The way the original game is set up you discover a tech that allows you to build something, either a unit or an improvement, and then the resource appears that same turn. The way DYP is set up you discover a tech and a new resource appears, but all you can do with that resource is get the tile bonus, but you know where it is, and now your researchers will try and figure out what they can do with this new resource, leading to the discovery of a new tech that now allows you to produce units or buildings using this already discovered resource.

If you discover mining and there is no iron within reach you may think twice about going after the iron working tech, why not expend you energy researching something else until you find a source of iron that you can make use of. I always hated researching iron working and then finding out that I still couldn’t make swordsmen because all the iron on my continent was already controlled by my neighbor.

An additional side effect of this is that you now must be more selective in which civ to play. Do you want to be an industrious civ that starts out with mining so you can see where all those ores are? Or do you want to be the expansionist civ who starts out with farming so you can see where all the crops are?

Its all about making choices.

 

[RobO]

Kal-el spake:
The money issue is definitley a major concern. Please keep thining about this issue.
...
But I like your idea about raising the costs to 2. you’re right it does provide for greater flexibility in the various govts. Which is one of the main goals of the mod, creating options and forcing players to make choices.

OK, I'll work on the premise that cost/unit is 2, at least for Despotism and probably also for other governments. It helps to narrow the playing field a bit. I would really like to get this one nailed down.

 

[RobO]

Kal-el uttered:
An additional side effect of this is that you now must be more selective in which civ to play. Do you want to be an industrious civ that starts out with mining so you can see where all those ores are? Or do you want to be the expansionist civ who starts out with farming so you can see where all the crops are?

I have found that the Chinese really kick ass at start. Being Military and Industriuos, with a good starting position (e.g. jungle with timber) they can churn out braves and overwhelm the neighbours rather quickly.

The downside is that if the unlucky enemy happens to produce a settler just before you strike, then his city will be size 1. You can take it but it will starve the next turn because the second citizen will resist and the city itself only makes two food. I have seen that happen twice

 

[bernskov]

Originally posted by RobO
Am I the only one playing this mod? Or perhaps I'm the only one who thinks there's too much money available during the ancient age? After all, we do want people to have an incentive to buy marketplaces, banks etc. It would also be good if you couldn't just set your science rate at 60% at start and then ignore it until you changed government.

I just finished a game where I also had the unfortune of 60% science rate showstopper.
Somehow later in the game I was able to raise this to 90% and still have a whopping 1200 income

Does anybody know why 60% is set at start and not later.

 

[RobO]

I think the science cap is used to differentiate between governments (as it was in Civ2 IIRC).

Here are most of the government settings from the 0.3.2 bic file:

Government.Cost/unit..Supp.T/C/M..Trade..Draft..MP..WarWear..Prod..Science.Work..Maint..Corrupt
Despotism......1......4./.4./..4....No.....2.....2....No.....Forc.....60%....2.....Y....4.Rampant
Monarchy.......1......2./.4./..8....No.....2.....3....No.....Paid.....70%....2.....Y....3.Problematic
Communist......1......3./.6./.10....No.....3.....4....No.....Forc.....80%....2.....Y....Communal
Republic.......1......3./.5./..7...Yes.....1.....0...Low.....Paid.....60%....2.....Y....4.Rampant
Democracy......1......2./.4./..6...Yes.....1.....0...High....Paid.....80%....3.....Y....3.Problematic
Theocracy.....Free..................No.....3.....4....No.....Forc.....50%....1.....N....1.Minimal
Federal.Rep....1......1./.3./..5...Yes.....1.....0...Low.....Paid....100%....4.....Y....2.Nuisance
Social.Democ...1......1./.2./..4...Yes.....1.....0...Low.....Paid....100%....3.....N....2.Nuisance
Fascist........1......3./.6./.10....No.....3.....0....No.....Paid.....90%....2.....N....1.Minimal


The table should be selexplanatory and hopefully enlightening. It seems to me there are three obvious errors:

Democracy has high war weariness (should be low)
Theocracy has a tile penalty (should be removed)
Social Democracy has no maintenance (it should have)

I'm working on the money issue. Suggestions are welcome.

 

[Def Lep]

Gentlemen:

I have read with great interest (and excitement) your postings concerning Kal-El's excellent mod. Unfortunately, I encounter the same problem Richard IV described 4/25 when installing: my New and Saved Game buttons don't work on the start screen, and I receive an error message reagrding "Scenario Version 3.08" files being invalid. I am running Civ 3 with the 1.21f patch, but I have also tried reverting to 1.17f, and I still get the same results. (I have a Falcon NW P4 on an Asus P4T-E with an Intel 815 chipset & 512 MB RAM.) I have copied the civ3mod.bic file created by the mod into my civ 3 per Richard's subsequent posting, but still no luck. However, I have not yet downloaded the dyp 03.1 files - I only tried things this weekend with the initial .03. If anyone could advise me how to correct this, I would greatly appreciate it. And thanks Kal-El, Nightstorm, RobO et al for your very helpful postings here!

 

[NightStorm]

Originally posted by Def Lep
Gentlemen:

I have read with great interest (and excitement) your postings concerning Kal-El's excellent mod. Unfortunately, I encounter the same problem Richard IV described 4/25 when installing: my New and Saved Game buttons don't work on the start screen, and I receive an error message reagrding "Scenario Version 3.08" files being invalid. I am running Civ 3 with the 1.21f patch, but I have also tried reverting to 1.17f, and I still get the same results. (I have a Falcon NW P4 on an Asus P4T-E with an Intel 815 chipset & 512 MB RAM.) I have copied the civ3mod.bic file created by the mod into my civ 3 per Richard's subsequent posting, but still no luck. However, I have not yet downloaded the dyp 03.1 files - I only tried things this weekend with the initial .03. If anyone could advise me how to correct this, I would greatly appreciate it. And thanks Kal-El, Nightstorm, RobO et al for your very helpful postings here!

1) Completely uninstall Civ3
2) Completely reinstall Civ3
3) Upgrade to patch 1.21f
4) Download and install DYP Mod v3.0
5) Download and install DYP Mod v3.0 to 3.2 patch

This should do you. I recommend downloading the .exe versions to correct your problem. Isak has done a great job putting the .exe together so that all the correct files go in the correct places. Try this, hope it helps.

 

[Kal-el]

Originally posted by RobO
I think the science cap is used to differentiate between governments (as it was in Civ2 IIRC).

It is indeed.

It seems to me there are three obvious errors:

A very Bold statement.

Democracy has high war weariness (should be low)

The earliest, and most well known, democracy was the Greek City State of Athens. Athens was known for her navy and her dominance of Mediterranean trade. War is not good for trade.

Theocracy has a tile penalty (should be removed)

Possibly, but I wanted there to be a significant penalty for switching to a govt that gave you free units, minimal corruption (the only one) and had no maintenance.

Social Democracy has no maintenance (it should have)

This is what distinguishes it from Federal Republic, I suppose it could be removed and then switch the corruption to communal.