Archer 007
Rebirth
I like having war vets in high government position, as they are better able to judge when war is needed. I think that's something we can all agree on.
Draft Dodgers Out
- Thread starter Sultan Bhargash
- Start date
Sultan Bhargash
Trickster Reincarnated
Don't count on agreement, Archer, not even from the vocal ex soldiers in the audience. It seems respect for service is limited to opportunism in American politics, just like everything else.
That being said, I trust soldiers over businessmen or lawyers to make the right moves regarding war.
That being said, I trust soldiers over businessmen or lawyers to make the right moves regarding war.
meldor
Deity
Funny, when I was in for four years active duty, I didn't know I wasn't supposed to talk to the blacks I worked with every day. I am sorry about that, I will know better next time. The fact that the person who was my best friend, who spent 3 years working beside me, Who came to my house for dinner, and I to his, our children played together every day, the fact that he was black doesn't count, because I am not black? Does being a "redman" count? I went all the way through the Army days with "them". If that really matters that much to you. Or maybe "they" weren't honest with me because I wasn't one of "them". Now, I can't say anything about the gays in service, because none professed to me that they were gay. It was before the "don't ask, don't tell" days. I know a several of the ladies I served with were lesbian, as they didn't bother to hide it very much. Most males didn't really care as they didn't have to share a tent with them. So, I guess I can't talk to that. I will say, I am very disappointed in your line of reasoning. I know what you meant, but trying to tar me with the racist brush isn't going to work on this issue.
You are right, but I can still thank God that he isn't in office. (or for your view I can thank the SCOTUS).
He got only some of the ones that did it, he got none of the higher ups or any of the money people. He therefore left them to go after the embassies. His reponse to that was pretty cool! Got a Lewenski and when your impeachment comes up just lob some cruise missles at aspirin factories and empty caves. Yea, he really showed them. But of course, that kept all of you who are afraid of dong whats right appeased long enough for him to make off with a hand full of pardons for his drug buddies and big money donors, not to mention some national treasures. (Sorry, but you went down this road.)Originally posted by Sultan Bhargash
Caught the perpetrators without risking our military lives or killing civilians in the middle east or alienating any of our allies? That was pretty cool, yup!
No, they were behind our liberation of Kuwait, at least France sent troops. Theydidn't object to the invasion of Afghanistan, but only because they didn't have any current sales and deals going with them. They did send some troops in after the fact as part of the "peacekeepers" that are too afraid to leave anyplace safe. Oh, and they might have sent some money and food...after the fact again.
Unsubstantiated? He had to return the stinking money. He had to come out and tell us about how he didn't think it was illegal but I will return it if you don't really investigate. Can you say Buddist Temple. Come on, do you want me to look up the memos they found about the teas?
Have you read Mr. Gores book, be honest? I don't think you have, you need to do your homework on this one. If you like I can try and find the time to quote you chapter and page. Mr. Gore clearly state in his book that the his ideal goal for the price of a gallon of gas in the US was $5. You don't have to take my word for it, read it in his own words, do your homework. I have read it, and I can't stand the man's policy drives. Worse yet, that wasn't even the thing that scared me the most about him having control. Read the book.
I won't take the bait on this one, you already know how wrong you are, we don't need to go over it again.
One thing that is funny is that the Republicans let Clinton put through over 350 judges while he was president. Bush has yet to fill 150 judgeships and yet he is "stacking" the courts. That is why I will love it if the Republicans get a fillibuster proof majority in the senate. We can get someone ofn the courts that think they should interpret the law not make it out of whole cloth. Just like Gores buddies on the Florida Supreme Court, how come you never yell about them. They completely remde the Florida election law and yet that was OK. But the SCOTUS put an end to the farce and that was horrible. Yea, right.
Again with the not so subtle accusations that I am a racist. You accuse me of putting up a token to say "look, I like them too". Sorry, I don't accept that arguement, and it is an insult. I would have thought better of you. I guess not.
You know full well, I have advocated Bush running Dr. Rice as his Vice-President next term instead of Cheny and then her running for President in 2008. I have never left that postion. If you care to again try and make me a racist for supporting her then so be it. I guess you can join Harry Bellifonti and the rest and just call them "house slaves". Of course, that would have to be what it is because no true black would be republican, would they? Oh yea, and no true Republican would endorse a black for high office. Maybe thats why President Bushes cabinet is the most diverse cabinet in history, even more than the much ballyhoo'ed Clinton cabinet. I won't answer anything from yo agian along this line of reasoning. If you want to find a racist or bigot, maybe a little introspection is in order.
I can't do anything about the emplyment, but I feel for you. The rest I think is a little carried away. doesn't Kennedy, Kerry, Daschle, and company represent you? I didn't know they switched sides. As for the media, I would suggest you change the channel. Maybe, watch Rather or Jennings, someone that leans your way. Of course, you prbably think they are too right-winged for you. Maybe you need to start watching European channels.
meldor
Deity
War is a political tool not a military one. It might be carried out by the military, but it is used by politicians. It is a rather interesting switch for the left though. During the Viet Nam war and after, the left want all those with military backgrounds out. They wanted the choices made by non-military people becasue that is who would be a better judge. Military people just want to fight, thats why they went into the military.
Now the left is crying because they want to take the choice away from those who used to know better and put it back in the hands of the military because now they know better. The worm has turned full circle...
nihilistic
Intergalatic Delivery Boy
The Complete Listing of chickenhawks:
http://www.nhgazette.com/chickenhawks.html
Yes, I'm aware that the above site is biased in that it contains only republican draft-dodgers, but some of the excuses (zits, 8lb overweight, anal cysts) are simply ridiculous.
http://www.nhgazette.com/chickenhawks.html
Yes, I'm aware that the above site is biased in that it contains only republican draft-dodgers, but some of the excuses (zits, 8lb overweight, anal cysts) are simply ridiculous.
Sultan Bhargash
Trickster Reincarnated
Thanks for the list nihilistic!
@Meldor, well we've gone too far past the ugly pale on this one. I didn't mean to imply racism for you, so I am sorry. I know you are for Rice but I will literally eat my hat if Rice is given the nod ahead of Bush III or some crony we don't suspect yet (President Ridge?
). Gosh, I'd even rather see Bill Frist get a shot...
That being said, I'm calling for a ceasefire on the Clinton/Bush bash between us in this thread. Seems that whenever I hold up the mirror the reflection from you gets uglier and uglier. It's nice to understand why you get passionate against Clinton but of course I'm deaf to your interpretation of his regime, just like you wouldn't like my unpublishable opinions on what Bush has done to the country (well everytime I publish them I get them deleted and a ban threat).
What I wanted to know was why America has so far given the cold shoulder to Vietnam vets, and if we were going to see one take the highest office or they will passed over for the usual smirky "politicians".
And if we have to have a father hold high power for 12 years, his son for 8, and another son beyond that? Sounds like a recipe for corruption, nepotism, and ruin. So far that's what I've seen.
@Meldor, well we've gone too far past the ugly pale on this one. I didn't mean to imply racism for you, so I am sorry. I know you are for Rice but I will literally eat my hat if Rice is given the nod ahead of Bush III or some crony we don't suspect yet (President Ridge?
). Gosh, I'd even rather see Bill Frist get a shot...That being said, I'm calling for a ceasefire on the Clinton/Bush bash between us in this thread. Seems that whenever I hold up the mirror the reflection from you gets uglier and uglier. It's nice to understand why you get passionate against Clinton but of course I'm deaf to your interpretation of his regime, just like you wouldn't like my unpublishable opinions on what Bush has done to the country (well everytime I publish them I get them deleted and a ban threat).
What I wanted to know was why America has so far given the cold shoulder to Vietnam vets, and if we were going to see one take the highest office or they will passed over for the usual smirky "politicians".
And if we have to have a father hold high power for 12 years, his son for 8, and another son beyond that? Sounds like a recipe for corruption, nepotism, and ruin. So far that's what I've seen.
Sultan Bhargash
Trickster Reincarnated
Sultan Bhargash
Trickster Reincarnated
And this pride list from awolbush.com:
Here are the republicans who bothered:
Here are the republicans who bothered:
meldor
Deity
Let's see, maybe its because there is no proof that Bush was AWOL? Maybe because they had letters from Clinton saying how much he hated the service? Maybe because Clinton stated he was leaving to avoid the draft?
The two people in Alabama, who by the why don't claim Bush didn't show up, only that they don't remember him showing up. Why didn't they file charges against him at the time. Did Bush's Alabama paper work suddenly get lost by someone who wanted Gore to win? Why did Bush get an honorable discharge if he was AWOL? In the absense of paper work showing anything different, I would have to go with the fact that not one single piece of paper from the days President Bush served say on little itsy bitty thing about a single bad thing he did in service. Therefore, this whole bushawol.com site is no better than one of your (as you say) unsubstantiated rants. If you want to continue to rant on it, prove it! Show the papers? Show the Article 15! Get something better than I can't remember. Sounds too much like "I didn't inhale".
I would also like to point out, as I touched briefly on above, that at one point a politician couldn't get elected if he hadn't served in the military or was 4A. Thanks in a large part to the liberals of the 60's through 80's that is no longer true. The only thing that the list of those who served and those that didn't serve really shows is the age of the person on the list for the most part. Kinda points to the fact that the Republicans have replaced a lot of the old guard with fresh new faces, the dems are still putting up McGovern and Laughingberg.
Oh well, enough of this, it is no longer interesting when it comes down to these types of arguements.
CurtSibling
ENEMY ACE™
- Joined
- Aug 31, 2001
- Messages
- 29,453
I say a soldier in government would win my trust faster than an oily business magnate.
It really all depends on the situation and circumstance.
It really all depends on the situation and circumstance.
Sultan Bhargash
Trickster Reincarnated
Well Meldor, the burden of proof isn't on me, or really on the army. If Bush has a paper that satisfies you as to his service so be it. If I tend to believe that he probably bought his way out of service in an early cover up, I don't think my opinion will change until he publishes his rousing "Memoir of my time in the Alabama National Guard".
meldor
Deity
And so, rather than believe a fact that can be proven, you would rather believe the fiction that can't. I suppose you also believe he did cocaine in college even though they have found no one who will go on record to say so, the rumor is better. Do you believe the one about the abortion he paid for even though the woman named addemently denies she ever had sex with Bush, much less got pregnant byhim, much less got him to pay for an abortion. Yea, if fiction and rumor are better for you than fact, then I will be happy to leave you to it.
Sultan Bhargash
Trickster Reincarnated
I think both of us are living in our respective fantasy lands, Meldor, I'd be willing to agree on that.
Just because you can't find all the evidence about the doings of the son of the ambassador to China, a priveleged man grown up amidst unimaginable (to me anyway) wealth, you are willing to believe he was doing those pushups and pullups with all of those soldiers who knew him (where are they?) instead of the drinking he admits to and the cocaine he doesn't deny. Yea, and Lo, and odds bodkins, I also used believe Clinton had state troopers pull over women he liked, and that he did actually inhale.
Just because you can't find all the evidence about the doings of the son of the ambassador to China, a priveleged man grown up amidst unimaginable (to me anyway) wealth, you are willing to believe he was doing those pushups and pullups with all of those soldiers who knew him (where are they?) instead of the drinking he admits to and the cocaine he doesn't deny. Yea, and Lo, and odds bodkins, I also used believe Clinton had state troopers pull over women he liked, and that he did actually inhale.
Archer 007
Rebirth
That just show ingorance on there part. Of course the former soldiers is more apt to make these sorts of decitions. They know what war is like and dont have some uber-nationalistic view of it.
meldor
Deity
There is one difference Sultan, you don't see me going beyond the facts. In any of the discussion above, I never even asserted that President Bush showed up to perform his duty in Alabama. I never said that he didn't get out of some of the duty because of who he was. The records of his duty or even lack of duty in Alabama are missing. There were no charges filed. I must therefore look at what factual evidence exists. Bush has an honorable discharge from the Texas Air National Guard. That is a fact. Anything else is pure speculation. To make statements that he was AWOL are not fact. The truth is that no record exists. He said he sreved and has a paper to prove it. A General and his aid don't remeber one Lt. out of how many from 25 years ago. That also is a fact. However, they do not say he didn't serve, they say they don't remeber him reporting. If you and the person who made that web site want to take those facts and generate a complete laundry list of sins inbetween of what COULD have happened, then you have stepped beyond the facts.
The only reason I even mention things from the last administration is in response to your statements. I put a little balance to the rumors about Bush with some rumors and half-truths about the Clintons, in hopes you can see that neither of these is worth raising ones bloodpressure over.
You have at times shown that you can intelligently debate the issues. I won't bother trying to debate your rants in the future as you seem to take this personally and will hope you return to less vitriolic postings.
Sultan Bhargash
Trickster Reincarnated
An important sentence, because as you have noticed, I do tend to let my blood pressure go through the roof on some of these things. And I did get just as worked up back in the day about Janet Reno's atrocities and about the Clinton rumours. I don't like what my government does most of the time. It is an agonizing way to go through life and the alternative - shutting down my political awareness and simply enjoying the fine fruits of our American bounty - seems a cop out. But neither would I try to act politically; almost immediately I'd be forced to give up a lot of idealism.
Thanks Meldor.
Yes we can have good debates, and yes, in this kind of situation, there isn't much room for "good debate" but plenty of food-spitting furor!
I will try and stick to posting stories in these instances and not ranting; I will indeed cool the engines till the next time I hear Bush claim he's done anything of merit beyond shouting into a bullhorn! (Oh, and sacking Trent Lott, that was a good one).
Since I've gotten the answers on Vietnam vets in political service through this thread, it has served its purpose for me. I'll not bother to keep it alive.
