Flag Burning!

[Flying Pig]

I'll try to play for the side of anti - flag burners and make an argument that flag burning is immoral.

1) A flag represents a nation.
2) A nation is more then "a patch of dirt". The land a nation inhabits in only one component of the nation. Its government, its people, and its culture are also components of the nation.
3) Therefore, burning a flag is a statement against not only the government, but also the people and the culture of the nation. Basically, it's an aggressive act against the ethnicity which flag is being burned.

Thoughts?

The immediate assumption of nationalism, which I regard to be a very dangerous beast indeed, turned me off what is otherwise a fairly sound argument.

 

[MobBoss]

That the KKK burns books and even crosses, but it never burns US flags?

That the Florida pastor who burned Korans likely feels exactly the same way?


Link to video.

I seem to think this sort of thing is just push back for all the flag burning/effigy burning/bible burning we've seen done by islamic radicals. Wasnt this done in response to something?

EDIT: Oh yeah, I remember now, he was doing it for the 9/11 anniversary. Just the threat of him doing this and radical muslims went zuzu and killed over 50 people in protest. This guy burns books, they kill people. Which do you think is worse?

 

[Traitorfish]

I'll try to play for the side of anti - flag burners and make an argument that flag burning is immoral.

1) A flag represents a nation.
2) A nation is more then "a patch of dirt". The land a nation inhabits in only one component of the nation. Its government, its people, and its culture are also components of the nation.
3) Therefore, burning a flag is a statement against not only the government, but also the people and the culture of the nation. Basically, it's an aggressive act against the ethnicity which flag is being burned.

Thoughts?

Points one and two are ideological convictions, rather than objective truths. While three may follow on from them, it is by no means obvious that any individual subscribes to the initial premises, and so that a flag-burning possess that meaning for them.

 

[Formaldehyde]

EDIT: Oh yeah, I remember now, he was doing it for the 9/11 anniversary. Just the threat of him doing this and radical muslims went zuzu and killed over 50 people in protest. This guy burns books, they kill people. Which do you think is worse?

It was apparently 11.

Pastor Terry Jones: “I’m Not Responsible” for Muslim Slaughter in Afghanistan (Video)

Which are worse? The evangelical Christian extremist who burned Korans, or the Muslim extremists who were provoked into killing 11 innocent people as a direct result? Why is it so important to determine which fundamentalists were "worse"?

Don't you think both groups were "bad"? That Jones should have never done so given that most people knew what would likely happen, and even initially talked him out of it?

 

[Terxpahseyton]

Patriotism and its symbols is nothing more than a collective illusion of some kind of a hive-state-of-mind. The idea of people thinking and feeling alike. A illusion which as all illusions carries some potential for self-fullment. And an illusion that certainly has some virtue. But to punish someone who offends this illusion with contempt (let alone physical force) for no actual sensible moral or practical reasons, but for in the end no other reason that this individual dares to offend said hive-illusion (flag burning) - does, to be honest, kind of disgust me. This kind of hive-worship is what makes groups of people soulless animals.

 

[MobBoss]

It was apparently 11.

Whatsamatta wit joo Form, not using wiki anymore? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Florida_Qur'an-burning_controversy

Jones's threat sparked protests in the Middle East and Asia, in which a total of 20 people were killed.
Jones held a "trial of the Quran" on March 20, 2011 in his Gainesville church. Finding the scriptures guilty of "crimes against humanity," he burned it in the church sanctuary.[2] Protesters in the northern Afghanistan city of Mazar-i-Sharif and elsewhere attacked the United Nations Assistance Mission, killing at least 30 people, including at least seven U.N. workers, and injuring at least 150 people.[3][4][5] Jones disclaimed any responsibility. Norwegian, Swedish, Nepalese and Romanian nationals were among the UN workers killed.[6]

Been out of school awhile, but last time I checked 20+30=50 amiright?

Which are worse? The evangelical Christian extremist who burned Korans, or the Muslim extremists who were provoked into killing 11 innocent people as a direct result? Why is it so important to determine which fundamentalists are "worse"?

Whatsamatter you cant just simply answer the question? Earlier there was a question about which was worse, flag burning or book burning. Is this that much different?

Don't you think both groups were "bad"? That Jones should have never done so given that most people knew what would likely happen and even initially talked him out of it?

Of course both are 'bad' but not equally bad. I for one, dont mind saying those that murder people are far worse. Why cant you say that? Or is it perhaps because you really think evangelical christians are the same as murderous radicals?

 

[Formaldehyde]

I don't think in terms like "equally bad" or "not equally bad". To me, evangelical Christian extremists like Jones who do such incredibly stupid things after being warned what would likely occur, and fundamentalist Muslim extremists who kill in response are all "bad". YMMV.

 

[MobBoss]

I don't think in terms like "equally bad" or "not equally bad". To me, evangelical Christian extremists like Jones who do such incredibly stupid things after being warned what would likely occur, and fundamentalist Muslim extremists who kill in response are all "bad". YMMV.

Thanks for clarifying that burning books is equal to murder in your opinion.

Fairly sure the vast majority of the rest of us would at least agree that murder is a bit worse than burning a book, albiet a religious one at that.

 

[Formaldehyde]

Thanks for completely failing to understand that I don't think they are "equal" at all, but that they are both "bad".

Fairly sure the vast majority of the world thinks that bigoted evangelical Christians like Jones are "bad", much like bigoted fundamentalist Muslims who kill people.

 

[MobBoss]

Thanks for completely failing to understand that I don't think they are "equal" at all, but that they are both "bad" instead.

Merely saying they are both 'bad' is also implying they are indeed 'equal'.

Fairly sure the vast majority of the world thinks that bigoted evangelical Christians like Jones are "bad", much like bigoted fundamentalist Muslims who kill people.

Equatism at its finest!!! Again you more than imply and infer they are equal. Thanks!!!!

 

[Formaldehyde]

You yet again show you have no idea what my opinions actually are. But you are more than willing to deliberately twist them into something you think you can vilify.

 

[MobBoss]

You yet again show you have no idea what my opinions actually are. But you are more than willing to deliberately twist them into something you think you can vilify.

I have a good grasp of the english language Form. You utterly fail to quantify one above the other and simply insist both are 'bad'.

How are they not equal in consideration of your viewpoint?

I would have thought that liberal arts education a bit more descriptive on such issues. Seriously, what prevents you from saying murder is worse than book burning? The fact that the book burner was an evangelical christian?

 

[Quintillus]

Several things:
-Would you support a flag burning amendment such as the one that was shot down in 2006 or do you support laws in your own country which prohibit the burning of the national flag?

No. It's not really that harmful to society. It's an insult to the government. But, as long as basic fire safety measures are followed, no one's getting hurt. It's symbolic. If it leads to something like riots, then you already had a pretty big problem to begin with and tensions were probably going to bubble over at some point regardless. I'd rather have people burning the flag than more violent forms of protest.

-Do you think flag burning is an appropriate tool to use in protests and what consequences does it result in?

Not usually due to its controversialness. It puts the protest closer to the extreme side of things, which in most cases probably won't help further the movement. But, it depends on what you're going for, and what the mood of your target audience is.

Is flag burning unpatriotic?

From the traditional sense, yes, if you're thinking of a state led by a government. From a deeper level, not necessarily. If it's being burned as a symbol of the government, not so much the state itself, it could still be done with the best interest of the country - just not the current government - in mind. But as the flag often is the primary symbol of both the state and its government, this can be hard to distinguish.

 

[Lone Wolf]

Points one and two are ideological convictions, rather than objective truths. While three may follow on from them, it is by no means obvious that any individual subscribes to the initial premises, and so that a flag-burning possess that meaning for them.

Fair enough, but I think that my argument has value for people enthusiastically burning the flags of other countries. Even when not directed against the ethnic identity of that flag's people, it smacks of selective counter-nationalism (Your nation is nothing but an ideological invented fiction. My glorious nation, however, possesses many virtues and has existed since time immemorial), which I consider to be the worst position to hold on nationalism.

Furthermore, even with people burning flags of their own country, flag burnings have a particular quality of "each country, but his own" (hi, MobBoss' old signature). Like I said, if I heard of someone burning a Russian flag, I'd assume that we're dealing with a Novodvorskaya-like mentality. I feel that doesn't reflect well on flag burnings in general!

 

[IdiotsOpposite]

Merely saying they are both 'bad' is also implying they are indeed 'equal'.

I have a good grasp of the english language Form.

No, you don't. As evidenced in the first quote above.

EDIT: An example (from math, of course). The function f(x)=x^2 is positive. The function f(x)=x^4 is positive. But merely saying they are both positive does not, in ANY way, imply that they are equal.

Oh wait I guess according to whatever strange system of logic you use, it does.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Yay! Ethical 20 questions.

"What is worse, burning a Koran or burning a flag. Mind you only yes and no answers are allowed."
*buzz*
Contestant A: "It depends!"
"That's right!"
*happy music*

 

[Flying Pig]

EDIT: An example (from math, of course). The function f(x)=x^2 is positive. The function f(x)=x^4 is positive. But merely saying they are both positive does not, in ANY way, imply that they are equal.

Only on CFC do we get examples like that!

"What is worse, burning a Koran or burning a flag. Mind you only yes and no answers are allowed."

Well, 'no', surely - although the question would be better phrased as 'Is burning a Koran or burning a flag worse?'

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Not the world's best phrased question I admit.

 

[Quackers]

Putting aside the moral/legal question of flag burning, if your a movement who wants change and needs support from others, burning your own flag is probably the worst thing you can do before getting into criminal acts. It is completely counterproductive.

 

[rugbyLEAGUEfan]

As much as I concede that lethargy and lack of vigilance in the face of tyranny is a blight on society, so is peoples propensity to be abrasive jerks. So I'm gonna sit on the fence for this one, possibly erring on the side of the very occasionally flag burning when the proverbial really hits the fan.