Dual Succession Game #1 (Classic and MGE teams playing the same map!)

[Az]

A lot has been said lately about this game in the different SG (Succession Game) threads.

Curently there are 3 games going on:
*Cornmaster's Fast MGE SG #3 (with The Viking, Belisarius, Az)
*Andu's Classic SG #4 (with Flatlander Fox, Willemvanoranje, Kev and Andu Idorin-maybe I forget one)
*And of course Az's (<IMG SRC="http://forums.civfanatics.com/ubb/wink.gif" border=0>) MGE SG #5 - The Glorious Russian Conquest of the North. (with: moksliuskas, Rmeigs, Stormbringer, Leowind, KittenOFchaos, and me)

So 12 players are curently on a SG.

Of these KittenOFchaos, willemvanoranje, The Viking, Belisarius, Kev, Andu and me will certainly play the DSG (Dual Succession Game). That means we already are seven.

SG #5 (the russians) seems to work perfect and is very interesting. We are six. I think that should be the limit for our two teams.

So for the moment we have:

CLASSIC TEAM:Kev, Andu, willemvanoranje and three more are needed.

MGE TEAM: KittenOFchaos, The Viking, Belisarius, Az and two more are needed.

Now about the rules.

In SG #5 I proposed an Exclusion of Fundy and Kitten proposed to forbid Bribing of any kind.
Everyone seems to quite agree with these. Viking added we should be allowed to bribe Barbs Bribing of barbarian units should be allowed since unlike 'regular' AI units they appear spontaneously. But no bribing of barbarian cities.
About the turns per player: After having tryed 20 and ten I'm certain that 15 turns per player is really the best.

Anything else?

Oh yes the map!

Well I'm really in favour of a premade map since the others really look like sh±t and the game looks messed up.

So for the moment here are the Rules:

NO Bribing exept for Barbarian UNITS
NO Fundamentalism.
15 turns per player
No more that 6 players per team.

Propositions:

-4 days delay to post the game otherwise loosing turn and no harm done.
-Games sent by mail and not uploaded so that the "enemy" can't see them.(Someone else told that to me as an idea but I don't know if it is really useful...or maybe it is....dunno.)
-level should definitely be deity otherwise there's no chalenge. We can't loose anyway so that should be a problem...
-What about barbs? Roving bands?


Oh and when everything is ready we should have two separate threads of course


To all those interested:

Looking for: 2 MGE players and 3 Classic!
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Rules acepted until now:

-No Bribing (exept barb units).
-No Fundamentalism
-Raging Hordes
- No Restart Civs.
-7 Civs total
-Deity
-No Airbases used for irrigation

Uploading the games and looking on the orther team's thread are ok

[This message has been edited by Az (edited August 24, 2001).]

 

[Kev]

Thanks for starting this thread, AZ.

I agree as to the rules - they all sound reasonable. The only item I can think to debate is the uploading. With email problems and the like I think we've found uploaded games a great boon to succession games. I am sure that we'll be very descriptive in our write-ups, so the extra advantage of downloading the other team's game would be relatively negligable. Also, I think it would add to the fun to see what's happening with the others!!! Very much so.

As far as team Classic, I would think that Kira, Smash, and Flatlander Fox would be given first shot as this was our original team in any case. If anyone of those three decides against it, I suggest that team Classic invite Goodbye_Mr_Bond as I think he is ready to play and had to bail on the last game due to computer problems.

I guess the main point that we really have to decide upon is the map. Do we want a scenario, a pre-made, a random map or something else? I think it would be cool to have and objective 3rd party provide the game for both teams once we decide. A premade and hopefully very challenging map would be great. I would hope it would be one that none of us have seen to lessen any advantage. I also suggest raging hordes as the barbarian level to add to the fun.

I think we should also put forth that this is a game for fun and learning. Cheating should carry the same harsh penalty as it would in other situations, and there's plainly no need.

If we would like to compare scores, perhaps we should use the formula that is used in the Game of the Month. This way it would not get too boring with "score tweaking" during the end game.

Any other thoughs and opinions?

 

[Az]

Well there is not much choice for the third party. Only Belisarius, Thuderfall, and me have both versions...
If TF can't (I'll ask him tonight) then either belisarius or me shall have to do it...

About the map...

I don't think that trying to find an unknown fictional premade map from the D/l section would be a good idea for the simple reason that someone may have played it. And we can't ask because we can't ask without talking about it

I think the map should be premade and the map shape known. The ressources, starting locations, and terain type would stay secret.
If you guys want exploration there is one choice:
-Use an ugly Custom map.

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[willemvanoranje]

There is a certain scoring difference between Classic, FW and MGE. It can matter a few percent. When the scoring in classic gets negative, it's not the right score anymore. The differemce then can be 20-50%.

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[Az]

Well lets concentrated on the map first...

In case you agree with what I proposed here are the maps from the d/l section that I find the most interesting:

<IMG SRC="http://www.civfanatics.com/images/civ2mapview/CARIBE.gif" border=0> In the Carabean we could start in Ispaniola...

<IMG SRC="http://www.civfanatics.com/images/civ2mapview/SCNDINAV.gif" border=0> Denmark?

<IMG SRC="http://www.civfanatics.com/images/civ2mapview/cmappaci.gif" border=0> Start in Australia? or maybe...HAWAI!!!

As for world maps these two look better than the one provided...

http://www.civfanatics.com/images/civ2mapview/realworld.gif

<IMG SRC="http://www.civfanatics.com/images/civ2mapview/niceworld.gif" border=0>

Of course these are only real world maps...

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[This message has been edited by Az (edited August 25, 2001).]

 

[Belisarius]

No Fundy or Bribing except Barbs is fine with me. Also 15 turns per player and 4 days to do turn.

I think we should upload the games. The more comments and joshing comparisons the better.

I would also prefer raging hordes for the Barbs.

I like the world map shown and think a start in Hawaii would be great. Surfs up.

As regards the score as its just for fun we could have several different prizes. First to destroy a Civ, first to get a Wonder, first to get Philosophy or Industrialization. Best History write up. Unluckiest at being sneak attacked. Worst position of a city found when tipping huts. The more the merrier.

 

[TheViking]

Originally posted by Kev:

I think we should also put forth that this is a game for fun and learning. Cheating should carry the same harsh penalty as it would in other situations, and there's plainly no need.

This is a very important point, it's for fun. It wouldn't be fun if members of one of the teams started accusing each other that they suck at Civ if they seem to be getting a slightly lower score than the other team

. So micromanaging hundreds of cities and launching a max-size SS for a 2020 landing shouldn't be necessary. Belisarius' ideas of various 'prizes' are interesting in this context.

As for maps I'd prefer a pre-made map (perhaps modified from an originally randomly generated map) by someone outside of the teams to make the game interesting and challenging. By this I mean a map made specially for this game - a map noone of us has seen before. I like playing in a world where I have no 'geographical knowledge', i.e. playing on another planet. I wouldn't mind playing on one of the maps Az suggests though.

I don't know if we should discuss whether to allow various tricks (or cheats, depending on your opinion) such as incremental rushbuilding, airbases, Oedo-revolutions etc. Any comments on this ?

 

[TheViking]

Originally posted by Az:
Well there is not much choice for the third party. Only Belisarius, Thuderfall, and me have both versions...

Correct me if I'm wrong AFAIK the third party would only need to have the Classic version. The MGE version can read save files from both MGE and Classic. In contrast, the Classic version can only read files from the Classic version.

 

[Kev]

Anyone else having "screen issues" on this thread (have to pan to the right to see the whole post). I think it's one of the maps on AZ's post that's messing me up.

Anyway, I'll just put my votes for various things and perhaps others could do the same. We'll see how everything adds up.

My votes:
1. Map: A premade, large, non-world map provided by a 3rd party. (I don't want to know the geography or be able to figure it as I go)
2. Bribing: No - save barb units.
3. Fundy: No
4. Barb Level: Raging
5. Restart Civs: No
6. Other Civs: 6 for 7 civs total.
7. Incremental buying: Yes
8. Airbases: No unless actually being uses for actual planes
9. Planning revolutions on Oedo Years: Sure
10. Uploading: Yes
11. Game Play: 15 turns, 4 day time limit, 6 person teams. I'd also suggest we keep early cities with given names for easier comparison early on and give our own names to them later on.
12. Level: Deity
13. Scoring: Use GOTM formula which balances timing with score pretty well. I also like the myriad of awards idea too. We should be able to award ourselves or the other team at any time. That could be fun.

That's it. I realize that some of the items like bribing, turns, etc. are already pretty much agreed upon, but there are other things to get everyone's thoughts about.

Any thoughts on when would be a good time to begin?

 

[Andu Indorin]

Originally posted by Kev:
As far as team Classic, I would think that Kira, Smash, and Flatlander Fox would be given first shot as this was our original team in any case. If anyone of those three decides against it, I suggest that team Classic invite Goodbye_Mr_Bond as I think he is ready to play and had to bail on the last game due to computer problems.

I entirely agree with this!

 

[Andu Indorin]

Originally posted by Kev:
Anyone else having "screen issues" on this thread (have to pan to the right to see the whole post). I think it's one of the maps on AZ's post that's messing me up.

Anyway, I'll just put my votes for various things and perhaps others could do the same. We'll see how everything adds up.

My votes:
1. Map: A premade, large, non-world map provided by a 3rd party. (I don't want to know the geography or be able to figure it as I go)
2. Bribing: No - save barb units.
3. Fundy: No
4. Barb Level: Raging
5. Restart Civs: No
6. Other Civs: 6 for 7 civs total.
7. Incremental buying: Yes
8. Airbases: No unless actually being uses for actual planes
9. Planning revolutions on Oedo Years: Sure
10. Uploading: Yes
11. Game Play: 15 turns, 4 day time limit, 6 person teams. I'd also suggest we keep early cities with given names for easier comparison early on and give our own names to them later on.
12. Level: Deity
13. Scoring: Use GOTM formula which balances timing with score pretty well. I also like the myriad of awards idea too. We should be able to award ourselves or the other team at any time. That could be fun.

That's it. I realize that some of the items like bribing, turns, etc. are already pretty much agreed upon, but there are other things to get everyone's thoughts about.

Any thoughts on when would be a good time to begin?

And I agree with all of these votes.

A couple of thoughts on the map: I definitely prefer the "unknown" factor of random maps; I find that it adds a dimension to strategy when you do not know the lay of the land until later in the game. Also, the premade map should not be completely random; in our last game, the randomly generated map apparently opted for the "small land-mass," "archipelego," and "5 billion years" options, resulting in a very flat world with a lot of water ... not exactly my favorites. I'd recommend setting the options to "normal," "varied," and "4 billion years." (Though my favorite is actually "3 billion," since this results in clusters of hills/mountains, which usually adds challenge to the game. And being from Colorado, I also happen to like hills and mountains for their aesthetic value.)

 

[Az]

I'm glad this thing is working so well

Let's see what we have

The following rules seem to be ok with everybody:
-No Bribing (exept barb units).
-No Fundamentalism
-Raging Hordes
- No Restart Civs.
-7 Civs total
-Deity
-No Airbases used for irrigation

Uploading the games and looking on the orther team's thread are ok

...so let's stop discussing these. I've put them in the starting post.

What remains is:

-The map
-The starting position
-The scoring formula and the prizes
-The third party (I have an idea about that so leave it for later for now.)

Lets take one at a time.

1. The Map

Belisarius: World or Pacific
TheViking: Premade map with a small preference for non-realworld and unknown
Andu Indorin: A completly unknown custom map.
Az: A premade map where the geography is known and the starting location is chalenging. (like hawai)

2. The starting position

If we do a premade map who would like to have a chalenging starting position and who wouldn't?

3. The scoring formula and the prizes

I think we should forget about GOTM formula since time is a very important factor there.
Instead I'll think of a list of prises and I'll post it tomorrow.
The winner of this part will be the team with most prises at the end.
what do you think?


Ok now could everyone give his opinion on these 3 issues?

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[civfighter]

To all those interested:
Looking for: 2 MGE players and 3 Classic!

I am new on this forum, but I played CIV and CIVII for many many years. The idea of this parallel SG is very interesting.
I am now playing MGE, so please sign me on the MGE team.
All the rules are fine with me.
About map, I would prefer unknown map to play on. However, I am OK with world map, but definitely random start location, and resources. We still nedd some surprise.

 

[TheViking]

Some comments on the remaining loose ends in Az's list:

1. The map
I'd say I have a clear preference for a challenging and interesting premade map with unknown 'extraterrestrial' geography.

2. The starting position
It should be challenging, however it should not be of the type where early luck is a very big factor (i.e. whether you happen to immediately explore in a particular direction or not). This is to prevent one of the teams from possibly getting a very large and decisive lead very early on.

3. Scoring formula
I'm not sure a special score formula (GOTM or something else) is necessary. Prizes are interesting, some quick ideas: First to meet an AI civ, first to conquer an AI civ, philosophy, first wonder, first colony, important wonders like Mike, industrialization, first to build some of the more important units (e.g. spy) - the possibilities are endless.

Should we try to keep the games roughly 'synchronized' so that the teams reach particular points in time (e.g. 1 AD, 1000 AD) at a similar time ?

 

[Stormbringer]

I wanna be in!
I can be on the MGE team!!!
the rules are fine, as for the map i would like to play on world map!

[This message has been edited by Stormbringer (edited August 25, 2001).]

 

[Az]

Kev, the Viking, Stormbringer, Belisarius and Andu Indorin.
Why you guys don't have ICQ?
I know there may be important reasons but I'm asking knowing that it would be a lot easier if you had it!
Can't you get yahoo msg or msn instead?

Welcome civfighter and stormbringer.
you two should also express your opinion on the three issues I stated above.

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[Andu Indorin]

Sounds like, perhaps, there may be enough interest for a third team for this game. ... (But us ol' wargamers will stick together.)

 

[Az]

Yeah!

Those that have ICQ should search from there for new players. I already did and I'm waiting for replies.

why don't you have ICQ guys?

Oh and I also opened a thread on Civ2 MP about us.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/Forum3/HTML/000372.html

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[Kev]

Wow, Things are really taking off here.

In my posts I've voted for a premade map (for the purposes of ensuring a challenging or interesting one), but one where the geography in unknown. It seems that this is the majority so far. I'm sure our "3rd person" would be happy to start us in a fair yet still challenging place.

Seems the GOTM formula will not be in use - which is fine with me. I'm looking forward to seeing some ideas as to what some of the awards will be. I would think that there should be an equal amount of "military", "scientific", and "building" awards to ensure that all playing styles have an opportunity.

One last thing - AZ: could you remove the large map from your earlier post? I think that is what is making my screen spread out when I'm on this thread. I keep having to pan right to see everyone's posts. Thanks

 

[Flatlander Fox]

I'll play on the Team Classic, as long as we keep the integrity of the team together (At least four of us stay together).

This is all getting a bit complex, possibly too much for its own good.

This is only fun when it doesn't resemble work.

A few too many house-rules for me, but I really don't mind that much. I'll just have to keep looking up this page all of the time.

As for old war-gamers Andu, one of the stores where I get most of my games from just closed

.

So now my Avalon Hill link is gone... Not good.

And about the game, I will tell you that I would rather play on a custom unknown map before anything else. We have destroyed the computer on many occasions, who cares what the dirt around us looks like.

No prizes needed, if we win, we will laugh at your pathetic MGE team, if you win, then you will be allowed to laugh at our team

.

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I'm so tired of being tired... Sure as night will follow day... Most things I worry about, never happen anyway...