Dune Wars 1.9 Final Release Feedback

[lasombra1984]

New Harkonnen Heavy Trooper skin is awesome)

 

[Ahriman]

Another option that can adjust all this is that civics can add a specific number a free units, free military units (I think this only has an effect if also running a civic that adds a cost for military units, as per Pacifism), or even free [military or not] units as a percentage of population. So if boosting their cost makes them a bit too expensive, you can allow some free units too.

Possibly, but this risks exacerbating the AI/human difference even more.

Example:
Suppose that the unit upkeep is:
Max[0, A(n-X)]
where A is the multiplier per unit, X is the number of free military units, and n is the number of units the player has.

Now suppose that:
X = 15
the AI has twice as many units as the human player
the human player has 30 units the AI player has 60 units.

So, the human pays 15A gold upkeep per turn and the AI pays 45A, or 300% of the human player's payment.

If we increase X to 25, then the human player pays 5A gold per turn in upkeep and the AI pays 35A, which is 700% of the human player's upkeep.

Population linkage is also problematic, because the AI tends to have smaller population than the human - its less likely to adopt Paradise, and its less likely to emphasize water-boosting buildings.

Does anyone know where we can check on the AI bonuses for difficulty level? Do they directly get more free units at higher difficulty levels? If so, then we're probably fine to increase the unit upkeep costs. And we could tweak the difficulty modifiers if needed.

 

[Deliverator]

Does anyone know where we can check on the AI bonuses for difficulty level? Do they directly get more free units at higher difficulty levels? If so, then we're probably fine to increase the unit upkeep costs. And we could tweak the difficulty modifiers if needed.

See table showing Civ4HandicapInfo.xml data here. UnitUpkeepPercent and UnitSupplyPercent are reduced for the AI at higher difficulty levels. I can't see any changes to the number of free units.

Should we have a fixed set of starting units for each faction? At the moment, I think factions that start with Exploration get a Scout Thopter which is quite an advantage. Civs starting with two Soldiers feels a bit lame. What do people think should be the starting units for each faction?

 

[God-Emperor]

I just stumbled across something related to this.

In CvPlayer.cpp, in the CvPlayer::calculateUnitCost function, after it has calculated the number of free units and free military units it does this:

	if (!isHuman())
	{
		if (GET_TEAM(getTeam()).hasMetHuman())
		{
			iFreeUnits += getNumCities(); // XXX
			iFreeMilitaryUnits += getNumCities(); // XXX
		}
	}

So if the AI has met the (or a) human it gets an extra free unit and free military unit per city that it has, hardcoded into the DLL in addition to any adjustment from settings in the XML. This is independent of difficulty level.

So it pays less unit upkeep than it seems like it should from the numbers in the XML.

 

[Omsion]

Are there any restrictions on founding multiple religions?

Founded Shai-Hulad first, then was first to reach Great Houses (CHOAM wasn't founded on the religion screen). Religion wasn't founded. Checked world builder - no other player had the tech either. House Ordos eventually founds CHOAM when they reach it ~5 turns later.

 

[Ahriman]

Are there any restrictions on founding multiple religions?

No, but there are restrictions on which religions can be founded by particular civilizations.

For example, I don't think Fremen can found CHOAM, and Bene Gesserit might not be able to either.

This is noted in the documentation for each religion.

One thing we should consider is removing these restrictions (except for Tleilaxu) if we make a canon vs non-canon game option.

So Roleplay-game would have the religion block restrictions and the house vendetta modifiers, and normal game would have neither.

 

[AbsintheRed]

I think the religion restrictions are fine this way, all games should have it
The civs were balanced including religions after all...

 

[Ahriman]

The civs were balanced including religions after all...

Well, not really. And the civs aren't very balanced yet.
For example, Ordos are very weak, and Corrino is decent mostly because of the Imperial trait.

 

[Omsion]

No, but there are restrictions on which religions can be founded by particular civilizations.

For example, I don't think Fremen can found CHOAM, and Bene Gesserit might not be able to either.

This is noted in the documentation for each religion.

One thing we should consider is removing these restrictions (except for Tleilaxu) if we make a canon vs non-canon game option.

So Roleplay-game would have the religion block restrictions and the house vendetta modifiers, and normal game would have neither.

Ah...was looking all over the Civilopedia for that. Guess "religion" would be too obvious a location

 

[AbsintheRed]

Well, not really. And the civs aren't very balanced yet.
For example, Ordos are very weak, and Corrino is decent mostly because of the Imperial trait.

Really? Ordos were easily leading in my last two games (of the AI civs)
Anyway, I agree that the game isn't balanced too much. For me the Fremen seems way too overpowered. They are always strong played by the AI, and in the hands of a human player they are simply unstoppable

But I think the religion system is good, and will be even better with further balancing. This diversity in religions has many advantages for Dune Wars - especially compared to other mods
Don't drop it from any of the gameplay versions

 

[Ahriman]

Really? Ordos were easily leading in my last two games (of the AI civs)

Ordos does well as an AI civ because it is very mercenary, and is very willing to be bribed or to trade techs. So it does ok as an AI player because it tech-trades like crazy.

But for a human player, its only advantages are the Trike and the Chem Trooper. Trike is very nice for pillage-raiding, but after the early game they have no particular advantages.

 

[Omsion]

EOT hang on this save.

 

[lasombra1984]

Are there any restrictions on founding multiple religions?

Founded Shai-Hulad first, then was first to reach Great Houses (CHOAM wasn't founded on the religion screen). Religion wasn't founded. Checked world builder - no other player had the tech either. House Ordos eventually founds CHOAM when they reach it ~5 turns later.

I had the same problem when tried to found Mahdi as Harkonnen.

 

[Ahriman]

And the answer should be the same:

there are restrictions on which religions can be founded by particular civilizations.

This is noted in the documentation for each religion

 

[lasombra1984]

And the answer should be the same:

I noticed that religions have to be founded in particular order SH, Imperial, CHOAM, Mahdi, Qwizarate, TM.
Mahdi will not be founded before Imperial or CHOAM. I've tested.

 

[Ahriman]

I noticed that religions have to be founded in particular order SH, Imperial, CHOAM, Mahdi, Qwizarate, TM.
Mahdi will not be founded before Imperial or CHOAM. I've tested.

I am ~95% sure that there are no hardcode blocks here.

They end up getting founded in roughly this order because of the order in which factions tend to research techs and because of the tech requirements.

Some religions will always be founded before others (eg Imperium before CHOAM) because the founding tech for CHOAM requires that the founding tech for Imperium first be researched.

But its all in the tech tree, I don't think there are any other order requirements.

 

[Deliverator]

I am ~95% sure that there are no hardcode blocks here.

There is no hard-coded blocking or forced ordering of religion founding. The only restriction is that some Civilizations cannot found certain religions. The Harkonnens can't found Mahdi, but that isn't documented anywhere in 1.9 unfortunately. I've fixed this in the new patch.

Patch 1.9.0.1 is now released which should clarify a few things in the pedia hopefully.

 

[Ahriman]

I did some testing with INITIAL_GOLD_PER_UNIT to 2.
AI autoplays seemed to lead to basically the same AI scores with and without the change.

I don't think it makes much difference to the AI, because on the low difficulty levels (AI effectively plays on Noble) the player gets a lot of free units, so unit maintenance isn't such a pain.

I think we should seriously consider making this change.

I'll try to do some human-playtesting and see if the game "feels" differently.

 

[Crighton]

I downloaded and installed the 1.9 patch and got to play a little bit last night. When I was St Alia of Knife, and had that 2% Abomination chance thing going.

It hit two time in a row, in a span of 50 turns it hit seven times. Each time saying it had changed my traits and to mouseover the flag. I noticed no change in my traits. I stayed Aggressive / Religious the whole time.

 

[Deliverator]

There is 2% chance each turn that Alia's traits switch so I guess seven times in 50 turns is not impossible. Perhaps we should implement a minimum number turns between switches?

There is a display bug in that mousing over the flag only shows the original traits - to see the changed ones you can mouseover the leader portrait in the Foreign Advisor (F4). In other words, the traits are changing it just can't be seen by mousing over the flag.