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Dune Wars 1.9 Final Release Feedback

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Dune Wars' started by Deliverator, Nov 22, 2010.

  1. Crighton

    Crighton Emperor

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    Ah.

    A number of turns between trait switch makes sense, I don't mind the switching, I just didn't know about not seeing it. It was the back to back switching that really caught my attention. Personally I like the thought of it, it's in keeping with the storyline, imo.
     
  2. Ahriman

    Ahriman Tyrant

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    This might be a good idea. Maybe a minimum of 20 turns on Normal speed, 10 for Quick, 40 for Epic, 60 for Marathon?

    I think we want to make it so that if your traits change and you set new build priorities based on this (eg choose military units if aggressive, temples if spiritual, etc.) that those buildings are completed before you can change again.
     
  3. Crighton

    Crighton Emperor

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    It's not a bad idea.

    Eitherway the idea works. If it's 2% chance per turn with no wait between turns it plays towards the storyline that Alia was somewhat unbalanced towards the end of the characters life. If the turn limit is put in, it works towards gameplayability.

    As a side note, if it means anything, I was playing on Marathon speed when the switches occurred.
     
  4. Ahriman

    Ahriman Tyrant

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    A balance thought: many people comment on the incredibly powerful Tleilaxu economy.

    We could keep the flavor of their specialist economy but tone down the ability of their supercapital to produce epic gold quantities if we removed the +1 gold per Zensufi city ability from the shrine, and left the shrine as just a priest booster.

    With the increase in the value of culture expanding an unlimited number of tiles, I think we could remove the +happy from barracks from Great Convention civic.
     
  5. Crighton

    Crighton Emperor

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    this might seem like an odd question, but are cities limited to only one or two religions? i'll make some notes to ask this question better over the weekend, but in my game last night I couldn't locate any city that had three or more (even though all had been founded etc).

    And now that I've typed this, I think to myself: go back and look at city screen to see if this is true, the city graphic on the main screen may only show the dominant religion or two.

    Sigh.
     
  6. Ahriman

    Ahriman Tyrant

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    No, there is no hard-block. It is theoretically possible to have Shai Hulad, Mahdi, Imperial, Choam, Qizarate and Thinking Machines in the same city (if they are added in the right order).

    However:
    a) Imperial is displaced by any other religion.
    b) Qizarate displaces all other religions when it arrives in a city
    c) Zensufism is only ever present in Tleilaxu cities (and wipes away all others)
    d) Mahdi is spread only by conquest
    e) Like in vanilla Civ4, religions only passively spread to cities that do not already have a religion. [Though there are some "wildfire" religion spreads on founding of Mahdi, Qizarate and Thinking Machines.]

    These all combine to mean that its not common for cities to have lots of religions.

    Which is a good thing, IMO.
    One of the things I really dislike about Civ4 vanilla religion is their Pokemon type nature; gotta catch em all, and more is always better.

    Its more flavorful if you only have 1-2 religions in your empire, and then those religions actually influence your playstyle.
     
  7. Deliverator

    Deliverator Graphical Hackificator

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    I should try and get some of this info in the Religion pedia screen.

    One correction, the wildfire spread mechanic only happens on founding Mahdi and Thinking Machines. Qizarate gives 7 missionary units (Qizarate Priests) on founding - in the hands of the AI this has a pretty similar end result to the wildfire spread in that a lot of cities will switch to be the new religion only.
     
  8. Ahriman

    Ahriman Tyrant

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    I think a lot of it is in the specific Religion pages, but I agree that it might be better to have a clearer summary, and to maybe have this core info in one place.

    Cool, thanks I hadn't tried a Qizarate path yet.
    I mostly play Emperor or Immortal, and unless you really beeline the founding tech (giving up a lot of nice economic growth techs) its pretty hard to beat the AI to founding most techs.

    I've done some testing with 2 gold unit upkeep, and I tentatively think it improves the game.
    Its hard to tell, because for most of the early game (where you think you'd notice it) you have enough free units so that you don't pay any maintenance. And then in the late-game, its hard to compare one match to another, because things are so dependent on history and terrain.
     
  9. Crighton

    Crighton Emperor

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    Thanks for the info on the religions, for the most part it makes sense.

    But I would ask why CHOAM is a religion as opposed to a corporation (which it was in the novels). I also don't recall any corporations in the game, granted the novels only really discussed two corporations, CHOAM and the Guild both of which are present. I like the way the guild works in DW.

    I think from a theme standpoint, CHOAM ought to be the only corporation in the game. With the idea being someone founds CHOAM, a founding city is assigned the same way it is for a religion OR a CHOAM Great-representative is created at the founding and the player can then relocate to city of choice. Then use the Great-rep or maybe a Great Merchant to create the CHOAM Company HQ, the great GM being required to build the company HQ is probably an easy thing to do in xml, comparitively speaking. The Corp HQ would be a world wonder type building, and each civ that had CHOAM branches could build a regional corporate office as a national wonder (with nice benefits, just not anywhere near as nice as having the Corp HQ WW). If something like this were to be implemented, the commerce side of the benefits could offset an increase in maintenance costs of units. Anyway just a thought.

    By the way I should point out I only just recently started playing with DW and am still playing at one level above noob until I can get myself all the way up to speed.
     
  10. Ahriman

    Ahriman Tyrant

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    We use the Religion mechanic in Dune not just to model religions (in terms of beliefs about god and such) but to model motivating ideas, and beliefs about who should be in charge.
    The Imperial religion isn't worship, its political support favoring the Emperor as a source of power, and the traditional norms of the universe that exist at the start of the book Dune.

    CHOAM is about throwing political support behind that organization and the Landsraad. Its still an old-guard religion, but its more adaptable, as long as CHOAM keeps bringing profits. Its hostile to anything that threatens the spice though.

    Corporations are a poorly designed BTS mechanic. They are very confusing in how they are implemented - particularly their upkeep. They also can't really be used as a gold booster; all corporations end up costing gold and producing food, hammers or culture instead (or whatever).
    We used to use the corporation mechanic for House Spice corporations, but then we managed to merge that functionality directly into the palaces. (You used to have to build a spice corporation hq building, unique for each faction, which founded the corporation, and was then un-spreadable.

    Whereas religions are a transparent mechanic, and they affect diplomacy and happiness levels as well.

    So: we've thought about this, and I think the current solution is probably simplest.

    No problem. I encourage you to keep posting feedback; the "initial impressions" of a new player are often the most valuable kind of feedback.

    There's a lot to learn, so this is wise. However, I think the game gets much more fun at the highest difficulty levels, where the AI can really start to put up a decent fight, and tends to beat you to wonders and .
    I would say that the most important advice I'd give is:
    a) Pay very careful attention to city placement. Optimal city placement is mostly about getting access to water (from mesa, groundwater or bonus plants) in the BFC, and bonus resources to a lesser extent. You'll want to build cities a lot further apart than in vanilla; its rare that you'll want to overlap.
    b) Concentrate on techs and buildings that increase water yield. Water is more of a binding constraint than happiness is.
    c) The mod favors rapid expansion. If you don't settle there, the AI will.
    d) Pay close attention to civic synergies, including your choice of Paradise or Spice. Certain combinations work very well together in supporting ether specialist or cottage economies.
    e) Adjust your playstyle to take advantage of your faction's advantages and those of your religion.
    f) Tech bee-lining can be very powerful. The tech tree is much "wider" than in vanilla, you don't need everything.
     
  11. Deliverator

    Deliverator Graphical Hackificator

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    (I see Ahriman beat me to it, but anyway...)

    The religions in Dune Wars are really more ideologies than religions. CHOAM is the trade oriented ideology. At some point it might be worth replacing the phrase 'Religion' with 'Ideology' throughout the mod just to clarify how we are using them.

    The core mechanic of Corporations in BTS is that corporate branches produce a yield of food, hammers, gold, culture, science or espionage (with modding) dependent on the number of a bonus that that city has access to. We have lifted that part of the mechanic (X gold per instance of a resource) and allowed it to used on any building - this is how the Palaces and CHOAM Headquarters collect spice revenues. So essentially we have a simplified version of corporations without the really complicated black-box that is corporate maintenance.

    These two threads contain some previous discussions on the subject:
    http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=328792
    http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=336948

    We shouldn't model CHOAM using the corporation mechanic just because CHOAM is a corporation in the books IMO, but if there are good ideas on how to develop the features of the CHOAM religion/ideology then we can discuss them.
     
  12. Ahriman

    Ahriman Tyrant

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    I'd also suggest these threads on religion design:
    http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=349617
    http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=330907

    Would also to be good to get feedback on:
    from http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=364073

    I'd also add that the CHOAM religion used to be called Landsraad, and was more clearly a mix of support for the Landsraad as well as CHOAM, but we changed some names to reduce repetition, so Landsraad is just the UN-mechanic.
     
  13. Ahriman

    Ahriman Tyrant

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    Another idea: I wonder if we should remove unlimited tech-men from the Faufreluches civic.

    The AI seems to auto-allocate basically every specialist to techman as soon as Faufreluches is adopted, because it values hammers over other yield types.

    We could change Faufreluches to give +1 hammer instead of +1 gold per specialist to avoid weakening it and making the specialist economy too hammer-poor.
     
  14. Jester Fool

    Jester Fool Emperor

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    I like it as is. The AI consistently uses the Great Techmen generated to research technologies and finish wonders. I have never seen a settled Great Techman but have seen the other Great People settled in cities I capture. Also, I think production for the AIs is a good thing as I never notice the AIs to lack income. The AIs seem to benefit so I do not think it really necessary to change. Just my opinion of course. :)
     
  15. Crighton

    Crighton Emperor

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    Does CHOAM displace any of the other religions?

    In thinking about it, CHOAM as a religion actually does act similar to what I mentioned before, I'm at work while typing, so for whatever reason I completely forgot about a few minor details while I was working on the preceeding post, like cathedrals (the idea being temple => x number of temples and you can build cathedral (or whatever the CHOAM equivilant is) and corporate HQ being the CHOAM holy city bit.

    I'm only on my fourth actual game, in my third game I expanded more than my usual, and in my current game I've founded way way way more than I ever do in a civ game. My last CIV game I played I founded a total of three cities, the third city being founded in the late 1800's just prior to my domination win. Only two cities are not thriving, mainly due to lack of sufficient water resources, but serve as good airbases and cultural outposts near the spice fields. Probably worth the trade.

    ~Crighton

    P.S. Thank you for remembering House Ordos. They were my favorite faction back in the PS1 days.
     
  16. Ahriman

    Ahriman Tyrant

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    Settling great people is a pretty decent strategy if you're using a specialist economy with Faufreluches and Meritocracy, as each settled specialist gets +1gold+1culture+1beaker, and possibly more from wonders. Stack them up in the appropriate city (gold specialist, beaker specialist, military production specialist) and they can be quite powerful. Much better than using the trade mission.
    So settling great people isn't necessarily a bad thing.

    I should also clarify: I don't just mean AI as in non-human player, I also mean the default citizen allocation that occurs for the human player who doesn't want to micromanage all of their cities.

    It just seems unfortunate to me that a policy that is supposed to be about a rigid system of classes and castes ends up meaning that everyone belongs to the Tech-Man caste. No scientists, no traders, no nobles.

    I don't feel strongly about the change, just soliciting feedback, so thanks.

    * * *
    If you use a CHOAM missionary in a city with Imperium, then Imperium is displaced.

    If by founded you mean founded religion, then this is a function of difficulty level.
    The AI gets big tech bonuses on higher difficulty levels; I play on Emperor or Immortal, and it builds most wonders and founds all the religions unless I specifically focus on founding them (which has an opportunity cost).

    If you mean cities founded, it depends somewhat on map size and number of players. If you don't want to found many cities, then play a smaller map, or a map with more players on it.

    I personally tend to avoid building a city if it isn't near some water resources, but that may just be my "perfectionist" style tendencies. I enjoy having every city be awesome. But even then, I normally found ~6 or so cities.

    Ordos aren't canon, but they seem flavorful enough to include. I enjoy their AI behavior as mercenary backstabbing scum.
     
  17. Crighton

    Crighton Emperor

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    I meant founding cities. It's a bit of a switch for me. I get the water (wells / windtraps) part so for the most part my cities seem to be doing ok populationwise. Haven't quite got to specializing beyond military production and general economy yet, brute force can go a long way thankfully.
     
  18. skunkpuppy

    skunkpuppy Chieftain

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    Is there a reason why Automated Factories and Automated Research Centres don't require the Thinking Machines religion to be present in a city?
     
  19. c.fe

    c.fe Warlord

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    Hi,

    I think I found a bug (or a big imbalance): A mentat with sapho gives +24 :) and +24 :health: .

    Nevertheless, thanks for the fun mod.
     

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  20. Ahriman

    Ahriman Tyrant

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    They should. If they don't, thats a bug.

    I'm tempted to make them require Thinking Machines state religion too.

    Thanks, also sounds like a bug.
    However, Deliverator has a plan for redesigning mentats, so we might ignore it until he has the new system working.

    Glad you're enjoying it. Any other feedback would be greatly appreciated.
     

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