Dune Wars : Game 2 - Arrakis. Desert Planet.

Which Civ You'd like to see us playing for in this 2nd game:

  • House Ordos

    Votes: 2 18.2%
  • House Harkonnen

    Votes: 1 9.1%
  • House Ix

    Votes: 1 9.1%
  • Bene Gesserit

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Bene Tleilaxu

    Votes: 1 9.1%
  • House Corrino

    Votes: 1 9.1%
  • Fremen

    Votes: 4 36.4%
  • House Ecaz

    Votes: 1 9.1%

  • Total voters
    11
  • Poll closed .
Ix already has Pundirice and Ginaz training school.

Are you sure? If so, problem. Ix should always be choosing to get its strategic resource (thinking machines / Ixian Weapons), which they won't have if they have Pundi rice and Ginaz contracts, unless they conquered them (only 2 landing stages per faction, except Ecaz).

Ah. You have to have many plots that have each been randomly converted twice. No wonder people have been saying it takes forever.

This isn't quite the issue. The extreme time for reaching condition is based not on the slow changing of plots, which can be rapidly sped up by building lots of reservoirs, but on the fact that only tiles with fresh water can terraform. So, you need to have a large empire in order to have enough space to have lots of tiles that can get fresh water access.
Its not that the tiles transform too slowly, its that the number of tiles needed was large relative to the number of potentially terraformable tiles.

Also, yes, cultural victory takes a long time, and the intermediate gains of attempting a cultural victory are minimal. Terraforming is worth pursuing on its own, because it leads to super-cities. And it requires very little human intervention/strategy adjustment: all you have to do is build well improvements and catchbasins/reservoirs, the rest happens passively at zero cost.
Whereas heavy culture output has relatively few benefits until it leads to victory (big culture on cities in the middle of your empire has almost no benefit), and it requires much more of a strategy adjustment (making productive workers/specialists into artists/nobles instead, who produce little except culture).
The difference should be that you can get a cultural victory entirely defensviely, from onyl a few cities, whereas terraforming will still require some conquest to get territory, and will make most other players hate you, so you should have to defend yourself much more aggressively.

You really need Reservoirs of Liet to speed things up (I had the biggest empire by far while they were 2nd)--I didn't build any of them.
It should be impossible to get a terraforming victory without building reservoirs, you just won't have enough tiles with fresh water access without the reservoirs.

Hence, expanding the fresh water "range" of the reservoirs from 2 -> 3 is one significant way to make "convert X tile" victories easier.
 
Ix should always be choosing to get its strategic resource (thinking machines / Ixian Weapons), which they won't have if they have Pundi rice and Ginaz contracts

Not quite. Contracts are implemented as "random events". When a random event occurs, the game figures out which options are available, and then the AI chooses one randomly. Each option has a weight, and the AI chooses based on the weight. Sardaukar and Thinking Machines have a weight of 1000, Ginaz has a weight of 500, and the others have a weight of 100. So you could compute the probability of selecting Ginaz and Pundi without choosing Thinking Machines; it is a small probability, but not zero.
 
Then maybe we should increase the weights on Sardaukar and "thinking machines", say to 10,000? We really want the Corrino player to *always* choose Sardaukar cooperation, and the Ixian player to *always* choose Ixian technologies, because these resources are crucial to faction performance.
[Another thought; some people overstack their games with AI players or use large maps, and have multiple copies of factions. Imagine a game with 2 Corrino factions, we want them both to be able to build Sardaukar, so both factions need to be able to get the Cooperation resource; at the moment, only one copy will get the resource. So maybe the Sardaukar and Ixian resources should be civ-limited, but be able to be selected multiple times by different civs? So both Shaddam and Irulan if present can have Sardaukar?
But then, how to block the Corrino player from choosing Sardaukar from both their Landing Stages? Tricky.]

Imagine that the available options for a Corrino player are Sardaukar cooperation, Ginaz and then 5 different resources.
The chance of them choosing Sardaukar Cooperation on the first landing stage are 1/2.

Suppose they instead choose Ginaz training (probability = 1/4).
Then their conditional probability of choosing S Coop for their second good is 1000/(1000+100*5)

Or if they choose a different resource (probabiltiy 1/4).
Then their conditional probability of choosing S Coop for their second good is 1000/(1000+500+100*4).

Total unconditional probability of getting sardaukar cooperation = 0.5 + 0.25*2/3 + 0.25*1000/(500+4*100) = 0.798

So the unconditional probability of NOT getting sardaukar cooperation = 1-0.798 ~= 1/5.

Do we really want a Corrino player to not be able to build Sardaukar (or an Ix player to build walkters) 1 game in 5? That's not trivial.

If we boost the weight to 10,000 then this probability will basically disappear.
 
Then maybe we should increase the weights on Sardaukar and "thinking machines", say to 10,000?

You will probably agree that the best strategy for a human Corrino player is to select something else with the first landing stage, and select Sardaukar with the second landing stage. This cannot be implemented with static weights, and there is no mechanism to supply a more intelligent selection function. Increasing the weights on these two to a huge value reduces the chance of a game without Sardaukar, but the drawback is that Corrino/Ix will lose the race to pick a second good contract. What do you think?

Imagine a game with 2 Corrino factions, we want them both to be able to build Sardaukar

I had not considered the case of two Corrinos on the same map. Thinking about the code, there is probably a bug for this case. I bet only one of the Corrino players would even be offered the chance to select Sardaukar, and the other would have no opportunity even if they built the landing stage first. I could make a weak argument that this bug is a feature; if there are two Corrinos, the Sardaukar will not serve both, so they will have picked one faction to support.

I think the right behavior is to have the two Corrinos race for the first landing stage, and only one of them should get the contract. In this case a human player of one Corrino would want to find out whether or not there is a second Corrino in the game. If so, then choose Sardaukar for the first landing stage instead of waiting. Do you agree? Or do you think the first Corrino selecting Sardaukar should not prevent the second Corrino from also selecting Sardaukar?
 
Or maybe we should declare this game won (since nobody can seriously threaten us now) and install 1.7 which has totally different names for techs and wonders?
 
Or maybe we should declare this game won (since nobody can seriously threaten us now) and install 1.7 which has totally different names for techs and wonders?
I vote for continue. Don't let down lurkers :cool:
But if we think about the settings of the next game, we shouldn't disable tech trading.
I feel that makes this game less challenging.
 
But if we think about the settings of the next game, we shouldn't disable tech trading.

In my initial scenario designs (which I think this ended up being roughly based on), no-tech-trading was meant to be a human-only roleplay-restriction (Fremen won't trade with anyone except Atreides, because everyone else treats them like vermin).

It wasn't supposed to be a game-option; no tech-trading option cripples the AI players, who normally tech-whore like crazy amongst each other. I usually play with no tech-brokering on to reduce this, but no-trading works poorly.
 
I vote for continue, I want to see all the green! I'm just a bit confused about the roster, who's on skip and who's up next.

Here is the original one:

1. Slvynn
2. negyvenketto Just played
3. Deliverator
4. AnotherPacifist Played before that
5. Stochastic Played 3 sessions ago

I think Deliverator said he'd play on Sunday, but that seems to have fallen through, and I haven't seen Slvynn post on this thread in a while.

So maybe a roll call is in order and then continue from there?
 
I have played only a half turnset last time, so I hope you won't mind I play the another half now. We can wait for feedback from the missing ones after.
 
Eventually :woohoo: I haven't converted yet. Temple queued after Deathstill to build a Missionary to convert a higher production city which can build more Missionaries faster.


We have a GE, I wouldn't start a GA with him. It's maybe better to do with a GM we will get from Solaris Economy. Water Souk will be usefull, too.


Grabbed Soostone and Sapho Juice contracts. I haven't used mentats yet, but I would like to see them in action.



Our newest city. Smugglers tend to come from the south, do they have a new city there?


Spoiler :
Logging by Dune Wars 1.6.5 (BtS 3.19)
------------------------------------------------
Turn 240 (15141 AD) [16-Dec-2009 08:38:07]

After End Turn:
Gara Kulon finishes: Master Guardsman
A Village was built near Gara Kulon
Sietch Abbir grows to size 9
A Village was built near Azrak Pan
Fogwood Landing grows to size 11
Windgap Sietch grows to size 10
Djedida Pan's borders expand

Other Player Actions:
A Spice Harvester was destroyed

Turn 241 (15151 AD) [16-Dec-2009 08:40:02]
75% Research: 353 per turn
0% Influence: 242 per turn
0% Espionage: 30 per turn
25% Solaris: -84 per turn, 407 in the bank
Gara Kulon begins: Settler (6 turns)
A Spice Harvester was built
A Shallow Well was built near Djedida Pan
A Wind Trap was built near Cahueit Caves

After End Turn:
Azrak Pan finishes: Water Shipper

Turn 242 (15161 AD) [16-Dec-2009 08:50:10]
75% Research: 356 per turn
0% Influence: 242 per turn
0% Espionage: 30 per turn
25% Solaris: -75 per turn, 328 in the bank
Azrak Pan begins: Roller (8 turns)
A Desalinator was destroyed near Umbu Sietch
A Desalinator was built near Umbu Sietch
A Spice Harvester was built

After End Turn:
Great Techman born in Sietch Tabr
A Village was built near Gara Kulon
Sietch Makab grows to size 12
Sietch Makab finishes: Feudal Estate
A Hamlet was built near Sietch Makab
Sietch Abbir finishes: Master Guardsman
Azrak Pan's borders expand
Coanua grows to size 8
Coanua finishes: Aerie
Fogwood Landing finishes: Aerie
Windgap Sietch finishes: Master Guardsman
Hobars Gap's borders expand
A Hamlet was built near Hobars Gap
Umbu Sietch grows to size 6
Cahueit Caves grows to size 3
Shai-Hulud has spread: Djedida Pan

Other Player Actions:
Attitude Change: Leto II (Atreides) towards Rhombur Vernius (Ix), from 'Pleased' to 'Cautious'
Civics Change: Rhombur Vernius(Ix) from 'Trial By Combat' to 'Great Convention'
Civics Change: Rhombur Vernius(Ix) from 'Arrakis Neutral' to 'Arrakis Spice'

Turn 243 (15171 AD) [16-Dec-2009 08:58:34]
70% Research: 348 per turn
0% Influence: 247 per turn
0% Espionage: 30 per turn
30% Solaris: -64 per turn, 269 in the bank
Sietch Makab begins: Roller (7 turns)
Sietch Abbir begins: Roller (8 turns)
Coanua begins: Vulture Thopter (5 turns)
Fogwood Landing begins: Vulture Thopter (4 turns)
Windgap Sietch begins: Roller (7 turns)
A Cottage was built near Hobars Gap
A Spice Harvester was built near Cahueit Caves
Master Guardsman promoted: City Garrison I
A City Ruins was destroyed by Fremen Vulture Thopter
A Trail was destroyed by Fremen Vulture Thopter
Djedida Pan begins: Temple of the Maker (30 turns)

After End Turn:
A Village was built near Sietch Tabr
Hobars Gap grows to size 9
Umbu Sietch finishes: Refinery
Bikouros Sietch grows to size 5

Other Player Actions:
While defending in the wild, Vulture Thopter loses to Arrakeen Bladesman (2.60/5) (Prob Victory: 90.1%)

Turn 244 (15181 AD) [16-Dec-2009 09:13:56]
70% Research: 353 per turn
0% Influence: 247 per turn
0% Espionage: 30 per turn
30% Solaris: -55 per turn, 205 in the bank
Umbu Sietch begins: Tribunal (12 turns)
Master Guardsman promoted: City Garrison I
While attacking, Crysknife Fighter decimates Arrakeen Bladesman (Prob Victory: 85.0%)
While attacking in the wild, Crysknife Fighter (2.32/4) defeats Arrakeen Bladesman (Prob Victory: 85.0%)
A Desalinator was destroyed near Sietch Tabr
A Desalinator was built near Sietch Tabr
A Desalinator was destroyed near Gara Kulon
A Desalinator was built near Gara Kulon

After End Turn:
A Hamlet was built near Sietch Makab
Chapterhouse's borders expand
Yatsa Pass finishes: Catchbasin
Imperial has spread: Red Pass

Turn 245 (15191 AD) [16-Dec-2009 09:18:05]
65% Research: 332 per turn
0% Influence: 250 per turn
0% Espionage: 30 per turn
35% Solaris: -41 per turn, 165 in the bank
Yatsa Pass begins: Roller (11 turns)
A Surface Mine was built
A Wind Trap was built near Red Pass
A Spice Harvester was built near Cahueit Caves
A Surface Mine was built near Cahueit Caves

After End Turn:
Tech research finished: Guild Banking
Sietch Tabr finishes: Landing Stage
A Village was built near Gara Kulon
Chapterhouse grows to size 10
Hobars Gap finishes: Catchbasin
Cahueit Caves grows to size 4
Red Pass grows to size 4

Turn 246 (15201 AD) [16-Dec-2009 09:25:07]
65% Research: 341 per turn
0% Influence: 254 per turn
0% Espionage: 30 per turn
35% Solaris: -43 per turn, 126 in the bank
Research begun: Solaris Economy (5 Turns)
Sietch Tabr begins: Guild Bank (8 turns)
Hobars Gap begins: Water Shipper (8 turns)
A Spice Harvester was built
Vulture Thopter promoted: Combat I

After End Turn:
Sietch Tabr grows to size 15
Gara Kulon finishes: Settler
Chapterhouse finishes: Landing Stage
Sahnin Pass finishes: Water Shipper
Fogwood Landing's borders expand
Fogwood Landing finishes: Vulture Thopter
A Village was built near Takim
Windgap Sietch grows to size 11
Bikouros Sietch's borders expand
Djedida Pan grows to size 2
Djedida Pan finishes: Deathstill

Turn 247 (15211 AD) [16-Dec-2009 09:34:25]
50% Research: 288 per turn
0% Influence: 260 per turn
0% Espionage: 30 per turn
50% Solaris: 2 per turn, 127 in the bank
Gara Kulon begins: Guild Bank (14 turns)
Sahnin Pass begins: Guild Bank (15 turns)
Fogwood Landing begins: Guild Bank (11 turns)
A Desalinator was destroyed near Umbu Sietch
A Desalinator was built near Umbu Sietch
A Desalinator was destroyed near Azrak Pan
A Desalinator was built near Azrak Pan

After End Turn:
Gara Kulon grows to size 12
Azrak Pan grows to size 11
Coanua finishes: Vulture Thopter
Tasmin Sink finishes: Water Shipper

Other Player Actions:
Imperial has spread: Ukhshunuba Rock (House Harkonnen)
Imperial has spread: Zuwarah Ridge (House Corrino)
While defending in the wild, Master Guardsman (2.15/5) defeats Arrakeen Bladesman (Prob Victory: 73.6%)
A Cottage was built near Coanua
A Hamlet near Coanua was destroyed by Arrakeen Infantry

Turn 248 (15221 AD) [16-Dec-2009 09:41:53]
50% Research: 291 per turn
0% Influence: 266 per turn
0% Espionage: 30 per turn
50% Solaris: 7 per turn, 132 in the bank
Coanua begins: Master Guardsman (4 turns)
Tasmin Sink begins: Guild Bank (12 turns)
Vulture Thopter promoted: Combat I
While attacking, Vulture Thopter decimates Arrakeen Infantry (Prob Victory: 98.3%)
While attacking in Fremen territory at Coanua, Vulture Thopter (3.60/5) defeats Arrakeen Infantry (Prob Victory: 98.3%)
A Cottage was built near Coanua
A Dew Collectors was built near Djedida Pan

After End Turn:
A Village was built near Sietch Makab
Chapterhouse finishes: Master Guardsman
Fogwood Landing grows to size 12
Windgap Sietch finishes: Roller
Tasmin Sink grows to size 11
Umbu Sietch's borders expand
Red Pass grows to size 5

Turn 249 (15231 AD) [16-Dec-2009 09:47:13]
50% Research: 294 per turn
0% Influence: 267 per turn
0% Espionage: 30 per turn
50% Solaris: 7 per turn, 139 in the bank
Chapterhouse begins: Guild Bank (9 turns)
Windgap Sietch begins: Guild Bank (10 turns)
Master Guardsman promoted: City Garrison I
A Spice Harvester was built
A Spice Harvester was built
A Surface Mine was built near Cahueit Caves

After End Turn:
A Town was built near Gara Kulon
Sietch Makab finishes: Roller
Sietch Abbir grows to size 10
Sietch Abbir finishes: Roller
Azrak Pan finishes: Roller
Cahueit Caves grows to size 5

Turn 250 (15241 AD) [16-Dec-2009 09:51:28]
50% Research: 300 per turn
0% Influence: 267 per turn
0% Espionage: 30 per turn
50% Solaris: 5 per turn, 147 in the bank
Sietch Makab begins: Guild Bank (10 turns)
Sietch Abbir begins: Guild Bank (10 turns)
Azrak Pan begins: Guild Bank (12 turns)
Coanua begins: Guild Bank (12 turns)
A Spice Harvester was built
A Desalinator was destroyed near Gara Kulon
A Desalinator was built near Gara Kulon
A Spice Harvester was built near Cahueit Caves
A Spice Harvester was built
A Cottage was built near Gara Kulon
Abumojandis Sietch founded
Abumojandis Sietch begins: Deathstill (21 turns)
While attacking, Vulture Thopter decimates Arrakeen Infantry (Prob Victory: 89.1%)
While attacking in Fremen territory near Coanua, Vulture Thopter (1.35/5) defeats Arrakeen Infantry (Prob Victory: 89.1%)
 

Attachments

  • Liet-Kynes AD-15241.CivBeyondSwordSave
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BTW, the other reason to kill the Corrino first is because they have Saudaukars locked in until they die. Saudaukars are way overpowered early on if you can get them (14 strength). We probably don't need them (since we're Fremen and can build Fedaykins), but if you deprive that from other civs they have no chance of countering until Lasguns and Kinjal soldiers which are late.

The Ginaz are underpowered and you can't build them till late anyway.
 
Woo! Nice to know about Shai Hulud finally, time to start spreading it, I think Gara Kulon might be a good first choice, I think it could do with the water and has most of its infrastructure built up, so its free to spam missionaries.

Thanks for keeping us rolling negyvenketto.

I've got a final on Friday, so I'll be a bit less constructive for a while.
 
So is this game still alive? Or has the 1.7 release killed it?
Who is interested in finishing the greening of Arrakis?

I can take a set now, but I think officially it is Deliverator's set.
 
Look around our mighty empire, wow, we are building a lot of guild banks. I’m going to change a couple to catchbasins/workers depending on water surplus, happy cap and number of hammers already invested. I don’t think we need all of them, several are in cities that are generating less than 10gpt right now so the hammers would probably be better invested elsewhere.

We need the workers because we have huge amounts of tiles that need improvement. Every mine needs to be converted to a deep mine, and soon we’ll be wanting to convert the shallow wells to deep wells as well. Also desalination and spice extraction need to continue. We currently have exactly 1:1 worker to city (19 each), my goal will be to get to 3:2 so I need 10 more workers.

Some of our cities are nearing the happy cap so I’ll see what I can do about that, maybe spread imperial and build their temple, maybe catchbasins, maybe just stagnate with worker building:lol: (Do you see a bit of an obsession?)

Techs:
I’m going to go for air power next to build light carryalls, this will help in troop and worker movement. Then planetary ecology (deep wells and progress towards sandriders/reservoirs of liet), then private property (see civics section)

Civics:
I think we might want to do a change in the near future to private property/imperial/free trade
To reduce costs, increase cottage growth (is it just me or do cottages grow slower in dune wars?) and provide the ability to rush by things (eg shai hulud missionaries would be nice ;)).
So I’ll be saving one techman/GS/G noble for a golden age.

Units:
After various guild banks are done I should be nearing air power so I’ll slot in some cheep units and then build 5-6 carryalls. These will just be for internal logistics (think of them as railroads). Then more rollers/master guardsmen and 7-8 more carryalls for offensive transport.

Colonisation:
There are probably 3-4 more easy city settlement cites to the south, I’ll see about settling them but it will be a low priority.


I will play in~9hrs, and will try to report immediately after, but I’ll have to see how late it is.
 
Ok, sorry about this post, I feel the quality is really below par towards the end, I probably shouldn’t have started playing so late, and I’m tired, or on second thought, I should have stopped half way (but just one more turn...) Anyway here it is. Mostly wasn’t very interesting anyway, just maintenance and build up. I think the only really big news is that Leto declared on Feyda and took one city, they are still at war.

Inherrited turn 250

Azrak pass–> bank in 11 to master guardsman in 3 (it is only making 14gpt and 4 of those currently come from engineers. Also Feyda is massing troops in Takim.
Windgap sietch –> bank in 9 to catchbasin in 5 (only making 9gpt and is closing in on happy cap)
Sietch Abbir –> bank in 10 to worker in 3 (only 8.5 pgt!)

Make deal with Ix: give corn for 8gpt.
Send crysknives after barbarian worker in the south

Turn 251
Solaris econ is in –>Airpower in 10
Capture the smuggler worker

Turn 252
Sietch Tabr finished bank–>imperial diplomat in 2 for Sietch Garra Kulon (needs happy soon)
Hobars Gab finished watershipper –> barraks for quick front line production of units
Cahuit Caves finished tribunal–>greenhouse in 4 as it has run out of easy water (water left unwelled to preserve spice)

Exploring thopter ends turn next to sand worm....

Turn 253
Bikous Sietch finished tribunal —> watershiper (it is running out of water

Turn 254
Sietch Tabr finishes imperial diplomat –> maula morter (since it has the settled great burseg we should build troops here endlessly)

Yasta Pass finishes roller–>grenade trooper in 6
Hobar’s Gap finishes barracks–> master guardsmen in 2

Turn 256
Finishes guild bank–>catchbasin (needs happy)

Turn 257
Umbu Sietch finishes tribuna–> worker in 3
Cahuit Caves finishes greenhouse–>refinery in 8
Red Pass finishes tribunal –> greenhouse in 4

Turn 258
Gara Kulon finishes guild bank –> lansrad temple (it will be unhappy for 2 turns)
Sietch Abbir has finished 3 workers, que 3 more
Chapterhouse finishes bank–> grenade trooper in 3
Tasmin sink finishes Bank –> barraks in 3

Leto II declared war on Feyda

Turn 259
Sietch Makab finishes bank –> maula mortar in 3

Turn 260
Azrak pan finishes Master guardsman–> settler in 5

261
Ix asks for open borders, I see no reason to comply, we can’t trust those that don’t follow the Butlurian Jihad!
Also Air Power is in! –Planetary eco in 3
Switch several cities to building light carryalls instead of troops

264
Djim Natal finally finishes temple of the maker starts on shai hulud mystic in 14 to finally start spreading the true faith.
Ecology in, benevolence in 3 with reaserch cranked to 100%


Generally: Building up offence right now with rollers and carryalls. I think we will want to declare on either Feyda or Corrino, nor sure which yet.
Teching for mentats, since we got the juice we may as well get the mentats.
Then I think we should go for personal sheilds for the shield fighters.
Next player might want to pop a golden age, and do the civic switch.
There is a settler in a carryall heading towards the yellow dot to our south.
Also, we have heaps of great people lying around, we need to decide what to do with them.

Tomorrow morning I’ll see about adding some screen shots, right now I really want to sleep, final exams have been hard on me.
 

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  • Liet-Kynes AD-15441.CivBeyondSwordSave
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OK, first off, looks like I'm not going to have any screen shots, I woke up late and need to get some real life going.:(

:goodjob:
I would prefer a war with Feyd for diplo+ with Leto

Me too, I think that we could probably declare sometime in the next set. We should probably leave most of our troops on Wensica's border there, but once we've built up a few more rollers, we should be able to go.

Also, I'm thinking that it might be better if a few of the roller builds I have going were switched to hornets for air bombardment so that we can take down the city defense faster.

Currently I've got most of our workers in pairs building deep mines, I think it is almost done at which point they can move to deep wells.

Do you think it might be a good idea to lower the turnset length to 10 or 15 turns instead of 20? It took me ~2hrs to run 20 turns and do a really poor write up, maybe smaller chunks would be more manageable.
 
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