Dune Wars : Game 2 - Arrakis. Desert Planet.

Stochastic · Dec 6, 2009

Liet stared out at the assembled Naibs. The salt pans by Sietch Tabr and elsewhere prove that water used to flow on Arrakis, if we can find the water we will be able to create a paradise on Arrakis. For now I want parties of Fremen to experiment with different plants and animals, ecology is a system, and it is cruciel that we understand it and the consequenses of chanign it.

Inherited turn 191:
Where is the settler north of Yasa Pass going without an escort? I path him to our borders and tell to wait.
Move worker North of Yasa Pass to harvest spice. Was working on burro weed, but we have two already.
Change the destination of settler north of Sietch Tabr. Move to Cayan dot for more windtraps

Sietch Taber is about to go unhappy, I switch a windtrap to a desert tile.

On the foreign relations board Vernus will give 2gpt for spice honey. We only have one spice honey but there is lots more around our area and are nowhere near the healthy cap.

Adjust slider to 55%, way of Liet in 11 turns

Turn 192: Start building a bunch of workers
Start Syaydina Monastery in Sietch Tabr (18 turns in GA)

Turn 193: Found Tasmin Sink on Cayan dot

Spoiler :

switch desert tile in Sietch Taber to completed cottage

Turn 195: Golden age ends losing 16gpt at 60%, and 75gpt at 100%. So throttle to 0% and will wait 5 turns to boost treasury before deficit spending.
Fiddle with spy points to get more on Wensica, Feyda and Atani so that we will be able to see their demographics. Will try to remember to switch them back to focus on Feyda and Vernus latter.

Turn 198: A maker shows up in the middle of our territory, so expect to loose some harvesters in the near future.
And Bede completes his compilation of the most powerful

Spoiler :

Turn 202: Sayadina monastery built in far away land, gain 335 gold. Research to 100%
Convert to Arrakis Paradise!

After a long period of experimentation and calculations Liet made a decision about water. There is water on Arrakis, but the sandtrout keep it isolated. We will have to build basins to hold the water, protect it for our plantations of poverty grass and sword grass.

Liet, how long will it take to turn Arrakis green?

We dont want to turn it all green, after all, the spice and the worms are still important. But if we can turn 3% of the surface of Arrakis green, we should have a self-sufficient system. So perhaps 350-500 years.

Back to settlement phase too!

Spoiler :

Founded Hobers Gap. And detect signs of advancing Corrino...

And our scouts found a smuggler venturing out to the desert unprotected...

Spoiler :

203: First Catch basin under construction at Sietch Tabr

204: See that Vernus has another 3gpt. Cancel the 2gpt trade to renegotiate, and the gold disappears. Crap.
Also a Crysknife enrout to reinforce polar city gets eaten by a worm

Spoiler :

205: I spy with my little eye....

Spoiler :

209:
Switch Chapterhouse from palace of Carthag to watershipper to destagnate it.

210:
Settle Umbu Sietch

Spoiler :

And its time to hand off.

General notes:
I think we should start thinking about how to take out a city with ShaiHulud so that we can get some spread of the religion for the happy and water.
Ive started sending out exploring crysknives to find a likely target.

Interestingly Wensica seems to be the only one upset about us trying to terraform the planet. Shouldn't some other leaders be giving us negative vibes?

We are 5 turns away from Cast Systems, at which point Id suggest switching to mercantilism and Fauferluches. Maybe burning up golden age in process? We have another person coming in from Chapterhouse in 4 turns.

The log:

Spoiler :

Stochastic · Dec 6, 2009

Woops. Here is the save. :blush:

AnotherPacifist · Dec 6, 2009

Well, I was trying to beat the Corrino with the unescorted settler to get a good spot, but now we've got to destroy them since they have a foothold in our land. In general I don't think the AI will capture an empty city that's just been founded (I had troops en route from Chapterhouse) unless you're already at war.
As I said, if I started the monastery during my turnset we could have gotten it, but it's too late.

Slvynn · Dec 6, 2009

I am bit busy those days - i think i'll skip this time

Good job - keep terraforming and growing economic might. We should take some more land soon.

Ahriman · Dec 7, 2009

Interestingly Wensica seems to be the only one upset about us trying to terraform the planet. Shouldn't some other leaders be giving us negative vibes?

Not until they adopt Arrakis spice civic, which they might not have yet. And the really high penalties come once you start building catchbasins and reservoirs.

Also, on a very minor fluff-note. The 3% isn't a "we only want to change 3% of the planet, because we want to keep the spice", its "if we change 3% of the planet ourselves, then nature will take over and the most of the rest of the planet would change by itself. 3% is a tipping point to make the cycle self-sustaining.
The Fremen never really considered that the terraforming would destroy the spice; they couldn't conceive of those kinds of environmental consequences.

AnotherPacifist · Dec 7, 2009

All the more reason to kill the Corrino before they become too strong.
I think negyvenketto is next since Slyvnn is busy.

Stochastic · Dec 7, 2009

AnotherPacifist said:
Well, I was trying to beat the Corrino with the unescorted settler to get a good spot, but now we've got to destroy them since they have a foothold in our land. In general I don't think the AI will capture an empty city that's just been founded (I had troops en route from Chapterhouse) unless you're already at war.
As I said, if I started the monastery during my turnset we could have gotten it, but it's too late.

Oh Ok. I would still feel nervous about a smuggler jumping our settler. Anyway, putting the :trouble:

on Wensica shouldn't be that hard when we want to! Sorry, I missed the part about the monastery being too late, but at least we got some good gold for deficit research.

Ahriman said:
Not until they adopt Arrakis spice civic, which they might not have yet. And the really high penalties come once you start building catchbasins and reservoirs.

Ahh. ok that would explain it.

Ahriman said:
Also, on a very minor fluff-note. The 3% isn't a "we only want to change 3% of the planet, because we want to keep the spice", its "if we change 3% of the planet ourselves, then nature will take over and the most of the rest of the planet would change by itself. 3% is a tipping point to make the cycle self-sustaining.
The Fremen never really considered that the terraforming would destroy the spice; they couldn't conceive of those kinds of environmental consequences.

Well I'd have to disagree there, Pardot Kynes certainly understood the consequences, but that is all in the Appendix (I'm kind of an appendix nerd, read all appendices of Dune and Lord of the Rings too). And his whole methodology was to teach Fremen to do research for him and then train up his son, Liet-Kynes, to continue.

Spoiler :

So if Slvynn is skipping I guess I'll post a reminder of the roster:

Roster: edit (AnotherPacifist beat me to it

)
1. Slvynn (skipped)
2. negyvenketto<– up now
3. Deliverator<– on deck
4. AnotherPacifist
5. Stochastic

Regarding the next few turns:
0. Where do we want to build more Catchbasins? In every single city?
1. Do we want to revolt to Mercantilism and Faufreluches? (I think so)
1a. If so do we want to enter another Golden age? Is there enough infra/military to build to justify the GA? I don't think so, but then we'll have to suffer ~2 turns anarchy.
2. I think we should probably think about working a bit on offensive military techs now as our crysknives are fairly obsolete for city attack and if we are going to attack Wensica (or defend... a best defense and all that) we'll need more than just guardsmen.

Ahriman · Dec 7, 2009

Well I'd have to disagree there, Pardot Kynes certainly understood the consequences, but that is all in the Appendix (I'm kind of an appendix nerd, read all appendices of Dune and Lord of the Rings too). And his whole methodology was to teach Fremen to do research for him and then train up his son, Liet-Kynes, to continue.

I've read the appendices too.

Ordinary Fremen didn't really know, and the Kynes who did know *did* intend to cover much/most of the surface, leaving only the deep desert untransformed (for the maker and his spice).

The 3% was not their target total coverage for change for change, it was the tipping point to make the transformation self-sustaining.

And what I meant was, it was never their intention to destroy the spice entirely, as eventually happened over future millenia.

0. Where do we want to build more Catchbasins? In every single city?

Be careful about catchbasins.
They don't don't transform mesa or deserts, and anything adjacent to a well will transform even without a catchbasin.
They do provide a global terraforming chance increase, but that's often not worth the -3 water locally.

AnotherPacifist · Dec 7, 2009

So does that mean we should exclusively build catchbasins in cities that don't have enough water? E.g. Yatsa Pass is a piss-poor city with no water at all (damn the stupid witches), and it'll never be as productive as the other cities.

negyvenketto · Dec 8, 2009

Unfortunately I can't play this week either. Let's give Deliverator a chance.
It seems to me Shai-Hulud shrine has a very limited effect. Once I found this religion, but it spread only to 1 city naturally, and it was before I built the shrine.
Leto II will give us diplo plus if he adopts Arrakis Paradise as well, it's different from vanilla BtS.

Ahriman · Dec 8, 2009

So does that mean we should exclusively build catchbasins in cities that don't have enough water?

My best suggestion is to count the number of tiles that can potentially be transformed; of the 8 tiles adjacent to the city, how many of them are:
a) NOT desert waste (or polar desert waste), mesa, or polar [these will never transform]
b) NOT already adjacent to a well [these will transform even without a catchbasin]

The marginal gain in terraformable tiles is this residual (the 8 minus those ruled out by a and b).

Build catchbasins in the cities where it provides the largest marginal increase transformable tiles, and possibly in any cities with really high water incomes, where they can afford to take the -3 water hit in exchange for the +1 happy and the faster global terraforming.

Also, catchbasins are a pre-req for reservoirs eventually, so you might want to build catchbasins elsewhere much later on.

It seems to me Shai-Hulud shrine has a very limited effect. Once I found this religion, but it spread only to 1 city naturally, and it was before I built the shrine.

Shai-Hulad has a low natural spread. If you want to spread it, build missionaries.

Its designed to be a weaker religion, because it comes so early, and to not be spread particularly widely.

In vanilla, early religions are much more powerful because they spread so widely, so quickly.

If you want a religion that spreads rapidly by itself, go for Imperial.

AnotherPacifist · Dec 10, 2009

Um, it certainly looks like a deserted planet here.

Stochastic · Dec 10, 2009

Yeah, I thought that Deliverator was up next, but I guess not. AnotherPacifist, do you want to take it?

I'll have a look in to pick out some cities for catchbasins based on flat land and lack of water.

AnotherPacifist · Dec 10, 2009

I'll play tonight unless Deliverator wants to. I don't think catchbasins are crucial at this time. When we have more land and enough infrastructure, we'll build them.

Stochastic · Dec 10, 2009

Yes, after reviewing each city I agree.

Sietch Tabr has Catchbasin
Sietch Makab has Catchbasin
Hobers Gap 7
Umbu Sietch 7
Yasta Pass 6
Fogwood Landing 4
Gara Kulon 4 but would be in starvation by 1
Tasmin Sink 3
Chapter House 3 spice blow soon.
Sietch Abbir 2 but spice
Azrak Pass 1
Windtrap Sietch 1
Coanus 1

So the cities that would benefit most have only just been founded and need other buildings.

Though I think the two Ecaz acquisitions could probably take a catchbasin usefully.
Gara Kulon could also use a catch basin, but it would be in starvation 1. If we time the construction of the catchbasin for when we get desert industry then the one windtrap will deal with that.

davidlallen · Dec 10, 2009

Small tangent. This game is making good progress. For the next game, I'd like to suggest something different. It isn't really a succession game, I am not sure what to call it. I would like some help play-balancing the civs. You can see some discussion around this post. I can make a few copies of the same map. Each copy will have a different civ at the same start coordinates. Each player would play their own game as a different civ, but from the same map and start coordinate. This may give us some helpful side by side comparison of the strengths of the civs.

Does it sound interesting? Has this been done before? Is there a better way to get this type of evenly distributed play balancing information?

LuCiver · Dec 10, 2009

davidlallen said:
Small tangent. This game is making good progress. For the next game, I'd like to suggest something different. It isn't really a succession game, I am not sure what to call it. I would like some help play-balancing the civs. You can see some discussion around this post. I can make a few copies of the same map. Each copy will have a different civ at the same start coordinates. Each player would play their own game as a different civ, but from the same map and start coordinate. This may give us some helpful side by side comparison of the strengths of the civs.

Does it sound interesting? Has this been done before? Is there a better way to get this type of evenly distributed play balancing information?

TheMeInTeam has run a "Pick your leader" series in the CIV4 strategy forums, where he sets up a map where players can select different leaders to use at an identical start site. I think he explains how to set them up in his strategy guide to map modifications:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=322396

davidlallen · Dec 10, 2009

Thanks for the pointer. I haven't been around the vanilla strategy forums much. In the "Pick Your Leader" bullpen, they do discuss the variant I meant. I would create 9 copies of the same map; everybody would start at the same location, but as a different civ. Each player would play the whole game and report their results.

Which forum would be appropriate to post this? I don't see any other mod games in the vanilla strategy forums, for obvious reasons. What I describe isn't a succession game either. Should it go into the parent forum, "Stories and Tales"? What is the most successful way to advertise?

AnotherPacifist · Dec 10, 2009

0. Set research back up to 45% (castes in 4 moves). Reset some desert tiles which were being worked for no reason (some cottages have already grown and have 2 hammers too).
1-2. Unremarkable moves
3. Imperial spread in Umbu Sietch. I just noticed that the Ordos have become Ix's vassal some time ago.
4. Castes in, chemical explosives next. (We need some more firepower against the smugglers). Another GS born in Chapterhouse, so I use him for the GA to switch to Faufreluches and Mercantilism (we have no foreign trade routes anyway).
5-6. Blah.
7. Founded Bikouros Sietch (the only other peninsula that could be settled by the Corrino close to us). Not a very productive spot, but has 2 waters and some spice.

Spoiler :

8. Chem explosives in, start to build maula mortars. Desert Rovers next (need to transport easier)
9. Suspensor devices next. Great Nobleman born in Yatsa Pass, saved him. Imperial spreads in our new city Bikouros Sietch.
10. Combat Ornithorpters next.
12. Imperialism next (prereq for Desert Trade)
13. Imperial spread in Sabtah Gap (Corrino). Looks like they're gearing up to attack us next:

Spoiler :

14. GA is over, drop research back to 50%. Sabotaged monument in Takim.
15. Aerie done in capital, start vultures (+40% against melee). Founded Cahueit Caves (will be very big city with 3 groundwaters and 4 mesas).
16. Imperialism in, desert industry in 8 moves. Maybe a good idea to switch to Imperialism with our many cities later on.
17. Hagal Palace built somewhere else.
18. Cave of Tears captured by Feyd.
19. We capture Cave of Knives which is not in a very good spot (2E and 1S would encompass more resources) so I burn it.

Spoiler :

20. We then capture Red Pass which is a decent spot, so I keep it. The dejected Harkonnen infantry could just look on jealously.

Spoiler :

To do:
1. Corrino is going to attack us pretty soon. I've fortified Hobars Gap but needs more troops. After the Water shipper from Sietch Abbir is done build more troops.
2. We have a Great Nobleman and a Great Scientist (please don't sleep great people, or at least wake them up at the end of your turn, because I almost forgot about the GS in our capital). Bulbing techs isn't going to be very efficient at this time since our science is probably either 2nd or 3rd behind Ix. I would use them for academies or pacifying captured cities.
3. Air power should be our goal.
4. If we want a vassal after the upcoming war with the Corrino, the Tleilax might be a good choice (they only have 4 cities that we can see).
5. Build a city close to the ruins of Cave of Knives. And raze Tuono (smuggler city SW of capital) for more cash.

Spoiler :

negyvenketto · Dec 11, 2009

davidlallen said:
Small tangent. This game is making good progress. For the next game, I'd like to suggest something different. It isn't really a succession game, I am not sure what to call it. I would like some help play-balancing the civs. You can see some discussion around this post. I can make a few copies of the same map. Each copy will have a different civ at the same start coordinates. Each player would play their own game as a different civ, but from the same map and start coordinate. This may give us some helpful side by side comparison of the strengths of the civs.

Does it sound interesting? Has this been done before? Is there a better way to get this type of evenly distributed play balancing information?

It is called Many Leaders Game.
FfH: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=285747
BtS: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=255654

Dune Wars : Game 2 - Arrakis. Desert Planet.

Which Civ You'd like to see us playing for in this 2nd game:

House Ordos

House Harkonnen

House Ix

Bene Gesserit

Bene Tleilaxu

House Corrino

Fremen

House Ecaz

Prince

Prince

Attachments

Deity

Duke Vector fon Pixel

Tyrant

Deity

Prince

Tyrant

Deity

Scientist

Tyrant

Deity

Prince

Deity

Prince

Deity

Warlord

Deity

Deity

Scientist

Similar threads