Dune Wars Mod

[The_J]

Rocks with lichen. That would work. Now to find graphics! Thanks.

In FinalFrontier there is a type of meteorite graphic (but with very low diversity).
Also Walter_Hawkwood has converted some resources graphics from Kohan 2, and the half of them are stone type resources.
Maybe both not the best, but better than nothing.

 

[keldath]

thanks david for the updates,

im struggling with revdcm 2.5 merge, its not wasy and takes some time...

 

[cephalo]

Ok, I had a chance to mess around with World Builder tonight, and I think I have an idea to increase the visual interest of the map without adding any gameplay mish-mash complexity.

I am hypothesizing that I can make convincing giant sand dunes in the deep desert. Let me explain how I think this can be done. To make the idea work best, I would need a terrain texture for land and hills that matches the color of the 'deep desert' exactly, while also behaving the same way in gameplay terms, even though one is 'ocean' and the other is 'land'. (no city building, etc.)

Using these three altitudes of 'deep desert', the 'ocean' would be the valleys, the hills would be the tops of the dunes, and the land would be in-between. Having only three altitudes is not great, but if drawn properly on the map, using the right terrain texures, it might be enough to sell the illusion.

The dunes would be drawn by superimposing a dune texture over the map altitudes to decide what altitude of deep desert to use on a map square. The further you are from any continents the more of this texture is used for dunes, while the closer you are to a continent less of the texture comes through and is basically flat around the continents. It's kindof like a blended in bump-map on a macro scale.

Here is an example of a texture I could use, that I downloaded from some random site on the internet. I would texturize this pattern for wrapping and then convert it into altitude data.

Spoiler :

To get more of an idea of how this data would be used, I cooked up a mock up with world builder. The mini-map shows something of a dune shape, but instead of my lame brush work it would be generated procedureally and look much better. I am using regular 'desert' terrain, though it would be better to use something that matched the 'deep desert'. Also, with WB you get 'coast' adjacent to land, but with a map script you don't actually need to place coast. Land can actually just butt right up to ocean. Try to imagine there is no 'coast' around this dune...

Spoiler :

What do you guys think?

 

[davidlallen]

It looks like an interesting start. Maybe it is obvious, but in the current versions on Dune Wars, we are using normal coast and ocean with the archipelago mapscript. This is important because the AI understands amphibious assault, but it does not understand how land transport works. So even though coast is called "desert waste" and it is yellow, the game treats it as coast. Same thing for "deep desert" and ocean.

It is certainly possible to have many different ocean terrain varieties and switch them procedurally; but we cannot use different terrains and we cannot use features in the ocean. Can you do your stuff with terrain varieties only?

 

[cephalo]

It looks like an interesting start. Maybe it is obvious, but in the current versions on Dune Wars, we are using normal coast and ocean with the archipelago mapscript. This is important because the AI understands amphibious assault, but it does not understand how land transport works. So even though coast is called "desert waste" and it is yellow, the game treats it as coast. Same thing for "deep desert" and ocean.

It is certainly possible to have many different ocean terrain varieties and switch them procedurally; but we cannot use different terrains and we cannot use features in the ocean. Can you do your stuff with terrain varieties only?

So the problem is that 'ocean going' transports would not be able to cross the dunes, since they would be land. Am I right? Also, if we simply make the dune terrain worthless, then it can be just land that looks like 'deep desert' but isn't. How bad is it for the dunes to block ocean transport?

I haven't looked if you guys have done any SDK stuff, but the CvPlot::isWater function is just:

bool CvPlot::isWater() const
{
	return (getPlotType() == PLOT_OCEAN);
}

if you change that to also include certain terrain types, maybe the game will simply treat it like ocean?

 

[Tssha]

As far as I know, it won't block the transports literally, but it might be a block for the AI. If the AI considers the dunes land, it'll look at it first before considering other landmasses. This might be a problem for settling other continents, or landing troops on other continents. Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong though, I'm not staff on this mod...just a good listener.

Also, I'd really appreciate it if someone would teach the AI how to use land transports (not asking, just griping). I've seen a mod or two around that could use such a skill, and my own mod would vastly improve if the AI learned how to do it. I mean, I know it's not simple but...surely somebody could have done it by now if they were motivated to...

 

[keldath]

hey guys,

im still working on the sdk,
i had to remove one of my favorite mods - myon enhanced city size - so for now version 1.2 wont have large cities with 3 and 4th plots.
unless someone can update this modcomp,
i have all the files, it about 7-8 sdk files.

great desert dune art !



/****
david hi,

i think i saw a bug with the windtrap - it if you build another improvement on it - the fresg water effect will remain....

update:
i cant get the unit statistcs to work for now,
so ill continue without it.

 

[davidlallen]

So the problem is that 'ocean going' transports would not be able to cross the dunes, since they would be land. Am I right? Also, if we simply make the dune terrain worthless, then it can be just land that looks like 'deep desert' but isn't. How bad is it for the dunes to block ocean transport?

If the dunes block ocean transport, that would be fatal. Since the maps are usually archipelago, amphibious assault across oceans is very common.

Here is an experiment you could try, using vanilla civ or a base mod like RevDCM. Autoplay a base archipelago game for 400 turns and observe how much amphibious expansion happens. That is, notice how many civs spread from one archipelago to another, and conquer cities which are on a different archipelago. Then put in your ocean terrain and run another game. If you set it up right you could even use the same map. If the amount of expansion is similar, then it is probably fine.

It took a while for us to get a setup which allowed this expansion. We have added other stuff on top, such as ocean transports which can travel on land and can be built at landlocked cities, but your terrain can be added on top of that.

i think i saw a bug with the windtrap - it if you build another improvement on it - the fresg water effect will remain....

Yes, I had seen that. In one of the patches such as 1.1.3, I fixed that. There is an event "onImprovementBuilt" which adds the fresh water, and "onImprovementDestroyed" which removes it. However, if you build one improvement on top of another, onImprovementDestroyed is never called. You could argue whether this is a bug or not, I suppose. So in the newer version, onImprovementBuilt additionally checks to see if the fresh water is there, and removes it, to catch the case that this is an improvement replacing a windtrap.

So if you have the later versions, you should not be seeing this.

Also, I'd really appreciate it if someone would teach the AI how to use land transports (not asking, just griping).

I agree. We started several threads to make sure nobody has done this. Nobody has. But, in Dune Wars, Maniac and koma13 have added all-terrain transport, which is similar. Your ocean-going transports can optionally travel on land. This gives a similar, but not identical effect.

 

[Deliverator]

@Cephalo: Glad you like what we've done so far. I really like the idea of creating a dune effect on the desert. If it can be done that would be fantastic.

Does simply having a feature on deep desert (ocean) kill the AI then? Maybe a neutral bonus could be used, i'm guessing sandtrout, etc, don't give the AI a problem.

Also, Cephalo it would be great to have one of your custom mapscripts for Dune. There are various aspects of the map in the book that we don't have in the mod - the Shield Wall, etc.

Edit: I can't find an image of the book map - could scan it I suppose. Here's the Dune boardgame board:
http://www.geocities.com/sherlockazulu/pbem4/DuneBoard.jpg

 

[keldath]

hey guys,

ive finished version 1.2.

good news:

ive added everything you guys did.
i took me over 10 hours of work to get the new version with patch 3.19.

every thing seems to be working well.

a few things ive noticed:

the pilru spacing guild leader - hes button is way too large - might cause problems - check it through the pedia.

- spice blows
wow - it such an excellent mechanics you guys, i love it. so does the spice art.
but,
dont you think guys that theres way too much spice created? should you limit it to one tile of spice after a blow?

my logic is that basically, you can have spice at all times, its not rare and theres an abundance of it...
why should anyone wanna fight over spice if anyone can get some?

- battle effects, well david i understand that you had to take those out... i liked those...but your the boss - i disbaled them from anywhere in the python and xml.

the worm - is awesome.

for some reason the ai wont build at rirst the unique corporations, i think we need to give them some more value like money or somthing.

i dont have time right now to add stuff or tweak i have a final exam in a month,
so, for now ive made v 1.2 and you guys can keep up with the patches (hope i got them all in).
everynow and then ill add your patches along with some minor stuff by me and we will get another official patch.

i have many plans from adding techs, houses (thats my num1 priory) civics, units and more.

so have fun guys.
link will be up soon.

dont forget to update to patch 3.19.

 

[davidlallen]

Does simply having a feature on deep desert (ocean) kill the AI then? Maybe a neutral bonus could be used, i'm guessing sandtrout, etc, don't give the AI a problem.

We have terrain, features, and bonuses. In vanilla, there are bonuses on ocean, and this seems to work fine. In vanilla, there are never any features on ocean. In DuneWars, there are features on ocean, and this gives a funny effect. Units which are allowed to move on coast but not ocean (think of a galley) can move onto an ocean plot which has a feature. I have not investigated to see why this is. Also, since this feature is actually pretty common (spice), I should really investigate to make sure that it does not prevent ocean assault.

Currently, we are using both a feature and a bonus for spice. This may seem like overkill and maybe it is. The bonus goes into the techtree, units and buildings as prerequisites. However, there are presently three features, "Dense spice", "Spice" and "Trace Spice", which are used by the system which causes spice to degrade over time. This may be more of a special effect and I can remove it if there is a strong need.

Is it possible to use multiple ocean terrains? That would be the simplest solution and it would also allow us to put spice onto dunes.

 

[Deliverator]

Is it worth me investigating the forest tile spice idea we had, if it is going screw with the AI? I was planning to try it this weekend...

 

[davidlallen]

the pilru spacing guild leader - hes button is way too large - might cause problems - check it through the pedia.

In patch 1.1.4 I added some new art for some of the leaderheads. This includes the bright orange color guy from the Children Of Dune miniseries. I am pretty sure his button is the right size.

dont you think guys that theres way too much spice created? should you limit it to one tile of spice after a blow?

We could certainly use more feedback on this. Since corporations only check tiles inside your cultural borders, there is not actually that much opportunity to fight over spice with the current mechanic. In general, conquering other people's territory will give you access to more spice, so I think it may still work.

 

[davidlallen]

Is it worth me investigating the forest tile spice idea we had, if it is going screw with the AI? I was planning to try it this weekend...

I think having spice tile is very important graphically. It will not be that hard to prove or disprove whether having a lot of the ocean covered with a feature affects the AI; I can try it tonight (say, 10 hrs from now). If we prove it does have an effect, still I would rather track that down through the sdk and eliminate it. This is a minor bug anyway since it allows early game scouts to walk across deep desert by stepping on spice. So I'd definitely suggest trying the tiling effect.

 

[keldath]

hey guys,

version 1.2 is up ,

link is on the front page.

enjoy.


as for your notes:

i think its possible to have several ocean types - maniac has this on planatfalll - i suggest you give him a pm.


david - i used patch 1.1.4 - still the pic was latge.

you right about that that spice is also in the ocean so you can get it all...good point,
at the current mechanics - the spice disappears after while right?


****
version 1.2 - does not have a 3 and 4rth cirt size - i think this will affect economy and growth of cities - put an eye for this.


one more important thing - i dont know if you guys noticed but version 1-1.1 didnt have active events due to a bug in revdcm , now its fixed but - the events are mostly empty and do nothing - they are barley linked to units buildings or resources - so theres a need for a complete overdo of the events.

 

[cephalo]

If the dunes block ocean transport, that would be fatal. Since the maps are usually archipelago, amphibious assault across oceans is very common.

Well, with what I have in mind, there would always be a path near the continents, and also I might be able to design the dune texture so that there are always paths through them. Is there a way to prohibit humans from driving on them? That way the dunes are something you just have to go around, and it's the same for everyone. I can prevent the dunes from isolating parts of the map.

I guess I can just try it and see what happens. Ouch, this won't be easy!

 

[davidlallen]

It seems like it should be at least worth trying several terrains with <bWater>1. Maybe the game does not care if you have multiple terrains of this type. You could create two or three terrain types with bWater, and create a map in ascii from world builder. Then hack it up in your favorite editor/scripting tool, to change all the water to one of the new terrain types. See if the AI will explore/found colonies/assault across it.

Is it possible that one of the space games like Final Frontiers has already done multiple ocean terrains?

 

[Ajidica]

Final Frontier has all the terrain as land (tundra as base I believe) so it wouldn't work there. Could someone explain to me why setting a land terrain as bocean wont work? All that the AI should see is the ocean part or a SDK mod. The AI only knows what is defined and if the terrain is defined as a ocean but used land art, the AI shouldn't see anything different.

 

[cephalo]

It seems like it should be at least worth trying several terrains with <bWater>1. Maybe the game does not care if you have multiple terrains of this type. You could create two or three terrain types with bWater, and create a map in ascii from world builder. Then hack it up in your favorite editor/scripting tool, to change all the water to one of the new terrain types. See if the AI will explore/found colonies/assault across it.

Is it possible that one of the space games like Final Frontiers has already done multiple ocean terrains?

Well, I think there's some code in the DLL that assumes that the plot type for any water terrain is PLOT_OCEAN. So if you set bWater on something, it wont retain PLOT_LAND etc. If you set the terrain type for a plot and it's water, like TERRAIN_COAST, it will change the plot type to PLOT_OCEAN for you. Solving that might be as simple as changing that one function, or it may cause issues throughout.

In any case, I have alot of work to do to realize these dunes. Once I get it running and the dunes turn out really nice, then you guys can solve the problems in their use.

 

[cephalo]

Also, Cephalo it would be great to have one of your custom mapscripts for Dune. There are various aspects of the map in the book that we don't have in the mod - the Shield Wall, etc.

I've looked at a few Dune maps, and every one I can find is a polar map. I'm thinking it's gotta be a polar map. I think I know exactly how to make a convincing shield wall.