Dune Wars Unique Units

[Psychic_Llamas]

Regarding Ordos, i LOVE their theme in the Westwood game (they were my favourite) and the combination of Espionage, use of illegal gas weaponry like the chemical trooper and deviator, their tanks having weaker armour but powerful sheilds and their tanks abilities ro rebuild themselves. i really think you should try to take more from the games. Sure its not Frank Herbert, but there is so much that is missing from Dune and so much creative lisence for UUs and everything that getting ideas from other sources isnt a bad idea.

also, a lot of people arent 'dune geeks' that know the books inside out, im one of these and i originally found Dune and this mod from the Westwood game. i think restricting yourself to only the book cuts the potential audience in half.

this is obviously just my oppinion so take from it what you will

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here is a list of a few things from the book's glossary:

Yali: fremen personal quarters within a sietch (potential for a UB)
Ixian Solido Projector:(Ixian UU which creates an illuory copy of the strongest unit in its stack or a selected target, illusory copies can damage but not kill enemies and cannot capture cities.)
Sliptip Guardsman: (Early Ordos UU, passes the 'poisoned' promotion ala FfH from combat.)
Selamlik: (Sardukar courthouse UB, extra reduction in maintanence cost?)
Sadus Tent: (Fremen courthouse UB, +1happy from state religion)
Noukker:(Imperial bodyguards, possible UU for Sardukar)
Lasgun Tank: (potential Ordos Suspensor UU)

 

[Ahriman]

i think restricting yourself to only the book cuts the potential audience in half.

We have some non-canon stuff, like the very existence of the Ordos. There is a bit of scope for things like the Deviator, but primarily they should be mercenary raiders; any weird biological stuff should go to Tlielaxu, and any weird biochemical stuff should go to Ecaz.
Going too far overboard (heartplugs...) will alienate those who are fans of the books.

Yali: fremen personal quarters within a sietch (potential for a UB)

I don't see how this would constitute a UB. Basically, this would be like having a "living room" unique building.
Sietch can be a UB though (and we had one in earlier versions of the mod).

Ixian Solido ProjectorIxian UU which creates an illuory copy of the strongest unit in its stack or a selected target, illusory copies can damage but not kill enemies and cannot capture cities.)

This has some potential as a unit, but I'm really not sure how to implement it.
These aren't magical illusions; there is no way that the hologram can actually damage the enemy; people don't die from illusory bullets.
If anything, it should probably have something like a FFH "dance of blades" type effect; giving first strikes to friendyl units in the stack (easier ambushes).

Sliptip Guardsman: (Early Ordos UU, passes the 'poisoned' promotion ala FfH from combat.)

Maybe... but remember that "poisoned" in FFH is only passed on to the survivor of a battle. So this only helps if your unit dies.

Selamlik: (Sardukar courthouse UB, extra reduction in maintanence cost?)

This has potential.

Sadus Tent: (Fremen courthouse UB, +1happy from state religion)

A tent, as a UB? Seems wrong.

NoukkerImperial bodyguards, possible UU for Sardukar)

Already in the mod; there are Sardaukar Legionaries and Sardaukar Noukkers.

Lasgun Tank: (potential Ordos Suspensor UU)

Why should this be Ordos?

 

[Slvynn]

Some units are just canon to Ordos from Westwoood series, while Ordos have not canon in books, their canon originate from those games. And pl just listing their UUs there. I think Cobra Tank is very good addition for Ordos. If you want Ordos UU , westwood created many and orginated them, and thats what people know about Ordos.

Also biochemical and chemical - is not same. Ordos use chemical. And they can be biochemical. They just steal technologies, and use them. They use what is profitable, adjusting sometimes gained knowledge to own needs. And Deviator, chem trooper (chemical, not biochemical), Lasgun suspensor tank and cobra tank and trike - are their canon, and they ARE mercenaries. They actually are ONLY mercenary house .

 

[davidlallen]

It is amusing in English that we are discussing about "canon" of "cannon". With one N, it means whether it is based on something in the books. With 2 N's, it is an artillery piece. No big deal.

I am not as worried about whether units are authentic to the original books, the sequel/prequel books, movies, etc. But, just names don't help me much. Please suggest abilities and what units they replace. Hopefully we can keep a reasonable theme.

The solido projector is interesting but as Ahriman points out it requires some complex mechanics to design, and then implement. We can keep that on the back burner. Lasgun tanks were suggested before and may be worthwhile. We are kind of ignoring canon that lasers are risky because they explode when crossing a shield; the counter to a laser tank is a tiny hand-carried shield generator. Toss it in the path of the beam and the tank dies.

I like the selamlik; it fits the imperial bureaucracy theme. I'll add it.

 

[Slvynn]

As being suggested Trike is just more withdrawal chance quad
cobra tank ned to stand still to deal damage. I think its good as 1 movement unit which have more (alot) of first strikes, and is replacement for medium scorpion tank.
chem trooper can just have + bonus against melee and guardsman units, with slight collaterial additon, replacing grenadeer. (+25% with guardsman)
Deviator can pass promotion on enemy units that will have some % per turn chance to wear off (as some FFH effects) and will make units stand still without ability to move/ attack(like ffh entangle spell, confusion),

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TrRb5bjVO18&feature=related

here is movie where you can see lasgun suspensor tanks and Cobras in action.

 

[Psychic_Llamas]

We have some non-canon stuff, like the very existence of the Ordos. There is a bit of scope for things like the Deviator, but primarily they should be mercenary raiders; any weird biological stuff should go to Tlielaxu, and any weird biochemical stuff should go to Ecaz.
Going too far overboard (heartplugs...) will alienate those who are fans of the books.

i would have thought the Ordos would be a big faction in the books. i have yet to read them (im not aloud untill after mu exams) but i agree with Slvynn that you are confusing chemical, biochemical, and biological. Chemical is inorganic chemicals such as arsenic, cyanide, carbon monoxide and such. Biochemicals would be things that mess with the biological workings of an organism directly. biological is things like viruses and bacteria.

also the way i see Ordos (from an outsideres persepctive) is that they acquire technology illegaly from anyone and everyone as long as it benefits them. Ordos are back stabbers and profiteers by nature.

I don't see how this would constitute a UB. Basically, this would be like having a "living room" unique building.
Sietch can be a UB though (and we had one in earlier versions of the mod).

ah ok. i read it as personel, as in military personel. my bad.

This has some potential as a unit, but I'm really not sure how to implement it.
These aren't magical illusions; there is no way that the hologram can actually damage the enemy; people don't die from illusory bullets.
If anything, it should probably have something like a FFH "dance of blades" type effect; giving first strikes to friendyl units in the stack (easier ambushes).

I honestly think this would be easy to do. you could even make it a UB (possibly as well as the UU) the same as a Hall or Mirrors from FfH. a Solido Projector Cannon, increase the defence of the city and cause it to spawn a 'Projection' of any unit that attacks the city (or unit's stack if it is a UU) these Projections should start with a 'projection' promotion that gives -90% strength, has a chance to defend the stack first, and dies after combat.

Maybe... but remember that "poisoned" in FFH is only passed on to the survivor of a battle. So this only helps if your unit dies.

thats ok. its a minor buff. and you forget about units with withdrawl chance. they can still be poisoned if they withdraw from combat. if you want also throw a 15% withdrawl chance onto the Sliptip Guardsman.

This has potential.

I like the selamlik; it fits the imperial bureaucracy theme. I'll add it.

yay

well i just said tent because i know little about Fremen society. Sadus is a fremen title for judges that arethe equivilent of holy saints. Sadus Hall, Sadus Cave whatever. i think it would be cool for fremen either way.

Already in the mod; there are Sardaukar Legionaries and Sardaukar Noukkers.

oh cool

Why should this be Ordos?

not sure they were a Unit in Westwood game, and i read lasgun in the book glossary, and saw there were already Lasgun foot units in the mod, so thought hmm why not. it gives the Ordos a little something extra in the way of military might.

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How about instead of giving Ordos a lot of UU tanks, why not give them a unique promotion that gives them a +10-15% defence boost, - 1 strength, +1 first strike chance, and a +6-8% heal rate in all territories and can heal while moving, but. This auto heal thing was by far one of my favourite things from the Westwood game. lets call this promo something like 'Portable Holtzman Generator'

another idea is an Ecaz Bersearker. im sure that from the Plethoa of wierd plants on their homeworld they must have something that makes the user become a bloodlusting killing machine. id suggest making an Ecaz Bersearker a Bladesman UU with a Bersearker promotion that give -1 defence, +1 first strike chance, +1 move and blitz. making these changes into a promotion ensures that when the unit upgrades into an Elaccan Gladiator they keep the benefits. but that Elaccan Gladiators built directly do not get these benefits.

 

[Deliverator]

c. Remind me, what does the unit regeneration thingie do? Is it just healing?

Regeneration is faster healing and heal while moving (march). I don't think it fits gholas well.

This is what I get for not being precise. By "regeneration" for gholas I meant the Respawn promotion. This is totally appropriate for gholas which are humans reincarnated by the Tleilaxu.

Basically I am proposing the same thing as Slvynn:

Suggestion - what about adding some promo to BTl units, limit units that can have it, and when they killed they come back as gholas exactly as Do Immortals in FFH.
They need to advance level again to get that promo again to being ressurected as ghola once more. Seems nice, balanced and easy to implement.

Units coming back from the dead like a more direct representation of what a ghola is. Perhaps the reborn unit can have new/different promotions, using some of the ideas from the current Axlotl tanks.

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Another idea I had for a UU for Corrino is Laza Tigers, the remote controlled beasts used in the assassination attempt on Leto and Ghanima in Children of Dune.

Not sure what strength they should have or what enabling tech. Perhaps strength 6, +50% against melee, -50% against thopters, vehicles, suspensors, etc, enabled at Harsh Conditioning? Also, they could have Hidden Nationality to allow them to pick off units. Maybe this would not be a strict UU in that it wouldn't replace anything, but just be a unit that only Corrino can build? If we go with this idea they is a nice Warg model I would like to convert from Kohan II that with a reskin could make a very nice Laza Tiger. Having an animal unit of some kind would be good for variety.

This could replace the Imperial Militia UU, I don't think a militia is appropriate for Corrino anyway. If you have the feared elite Sardaukar, you have no need for militias.

 

[Slvynn]

agree with Deliverator )

Laza Tigers is awesome idea, and HN units addition to game is awesome too (there are no HN units at the moment), and that would be unique assasination way interpretation in book.

Btw i didnt bought my mother-language transcriptions of whole series .
I bought yesterday english originals (few books, including 2 i have read already), and struggling through them (their tongue is bit complicated at times), but i do enjoy and understand.

And because mod represent and portray novels details, Laza is a very good pick

 

[davidlallen]

By "regeneration" for gholas I meant the Respawn promotion. This is totally appropriate for gholas which are humans reincarnated by the Tleilaxu.

Oh, I see. That is interesting. Based on the *original* books, it seems there is only one copy at a time. But in the prequels, there is a scene with a roomful of gholas of the same guy. The current way, you can have multiple of the same; using respawn, you only ever have one, and you need to burn a promotion each time. What do you think? It may be worthwhile to try out the current way; as BTl, give yourself an axlotl tank and some experienced unit; then in the city with the tank, build another unit of the same type. You should see it start with the same promotions as the experienced one, probably minus one level on something.

Another idea I had for a UU for Corrino is Laza Tigers, the remote controlled beasts used in the assassination attempt on Leto and Ghanima in Children of Dune.

This seems really cool. I will add it with stub tiger art.

 

[Slvynn]

Edit: sorry wrong thread - i misposted.
moved to toher thread

 

[Deliverator]

That is interesting. Based on the *original* books, it seems there is only one copy at a time.

Yes, that's what springs to my mind when I think "ghola" - Duncan Idaho with metal Tleilaxu eyes...

 

[Deliverator]

This seems really cool. I will add it with stub tiger art.

Thinking more it should probably have a combat bonus against both guardsmen and melee, but a sizeable penalty when attacking cities.

 

[Ahriman]

Lasgun suspensor tank and cobra tank and trike - are their canon, and they ARE mercenaries.

What are these - and how does sticking a different weapon on a tank somehow make it mercenary?

Lasgun tanks were suggested before and may be worthwhile

I would think that a lasgun tank would basically be an anti-tank tank.
Thinking like lascannons in warhammer; very powerful, but hard to aim and hit small targets.

So more effective vs vehicles (that can't use shields to protect from it) than vs infantry (who are hard to hit and can use cover).

chem trooper can just have + bonus against melee and guardsman units, with slight collaterial additon, replacing grenadeer. (+25% with guardsman)

This seems interesting. Potentially though, this unit should be good *only* vs melee and guardsmen, and basically useless vs anything else. Chemical weapons vs a tank?
So, maybe make it strength 4, +100% strength vs melee and guardsmen, does collateral damage.

i would have thought the Ordos would be a big faction in the books.

Nope, Ordos don't exist in the books.

confusing chemical, biochemical, and biological

The important thing is not whether they are scientifically different, but whether they can have distinct gameplay effects and "feel". I worry that biological, chemical and biochemical won't really feel very different, as far as factional variation goes.
Consider the follownig factional specialities: diplomacy, water conservation, air power, industry/robotics, slavery/exploitation, trade, political influence/culture, biological weapons, chemical weapons, biochemical weapons. See my point?

a Solido Projector Cannon, increase the defence of the city and cause it to spawn a 'Projection' of any unit that attacks the city (or unit's stack if it is a UU) these Projections should start with a 'projection' promotion that gives -90% strength, has a chance to defend the stack first, and dies after combat.

Seems reasonable. Another implementation: make the unit create a "summoned" projection unit, with very high strength (so it will always be a stack defender), make it unable to attack (like machinegun), but make it have a damage cap of ~95%. That is, it can only do 5% damage. So, basically it soaks up one attack on the stack per turn, through misdirection, but without doing any significant damage in return.
So basic

if you want also throw a 15% withdrawl chance onto the Sliptip Guardsman.

Sounds possible.

unique promotion that gives them a +10-15% defence boost

Defense vs attack values are not easily implemented here. This is not the FFH codebase, we do not have separate attack/defense strengths, or separate attack/defense bonuses from promotions.

This auto heal thing was by far one of my favourite things from the Westwood game. lets call this promo something like 'Portable Holtzman Generator'

Why would a shield generator let you heal/replace injured/killed soldiers faster?

another idea is an Ecaz Bersearker.

We just added something like this.

This is what I get for not being precise. By "regeneration" for gholas I meant the Respawn promotion. This is totally appropriate for gholas which are humans reincarnated by the Tleilaxu.

So, something like Immortality. This is what I was proposing. I reposted it somewhere recently.

I don't think a militia is appropriate for Corrino anyway. If you have the feared elite Sardaukar, you have no need for militias.

Well, I think the idea was to represent that the Imperial levies do in fact make up the vast majority of the Imperial armies. The Sardaukar are just their super-elites.
Think Space Marines vs Imperial Guard from Warhammer40k.
The Sardaukar are a hand-picked elite recruited from Salusa Secundus. All the Houses have to provide levies to the Emperor, and these are ordinary soldiers.
(There is a conversation about the origins of the Sardaukar; the standard belief in the galaxy is that they come from the Imperial levies).

If you wanted though, you could keep to the Imperial theme of assault troops more by giving them improved Hardened Bladesmen rather than improved city defenders.

Another idea I had for a UU for Corrino is Laza Tigers

Why Corrino??
I guess I don't object to tigers (though... they're kinda strange when we're reallly modellnig at the regiment level), but they should probably be good only vs melee. Ranged soldiers can just shoot them.
I tend to lean away from Hidden Nationality. They don't work well; they're useless unless you have a big army of them (an army of tigers?), the AI uses them poorly, and your allies with open borders enter your territory and destroy them.

Based on the *original* books, it seems there is only one copy at a time.

I prefer this. Just straight permanent immortality, maybe losing a promotion and some experience each time, and only one immortal unit per ghola tank. (Losing experience without losing a promotion is a benefit, losing a promotion without losing experience is a large penalty).

 

[davidlallen]

This is what I get for not being precise. By "regeneration" for gholas I meant the Respawn promotion. This is totally appropriate for gholas which are humans reincarnated by the Tleilaxu.

Just straight permanent immortality, maybe losing a promotion and some experience each time, and only one immortal unit per ghola tank. (Losing experience without losing a promotion is a benefit, losing a promotion without losing experience is a large penalty).

We have been around in circles on this in the tleilaxu mechanics thread. Suppose I attach the promotion to a thopter unit, and the unit gets killed. Now a full new set of thopters flies out of the axlotl tank? Even if you limit it to foot units, where do all the new rifles and ammunition come from?

In the current implementation, you pay the full hammer cost for a unit, all you get for free is the promotions. This represents the experience of the single commander, who is the actual ghola.

 

[Deliverator]

Why Corrino??

Because House Corrino use trained Laza Tigers in Children of Dune, as I said. Whether we are modelling at a regiment level is depends on your interpretation. I'd rather keep it a bit wooly in my head - it's more fun that way.

 

[Ahriman]

Even if you limit it to foot units, where do all the new rifles and ammunition come from?

An immortal unit, when it dies, reappears in the capital city at very low health, and takes several turns to re-equip/heal to get back to full combat readiness.

The problem with the promotions method is that it is very untransparent. It is hard for the player to see how the mechanic works, and to understand what it is that is giving promotions to which units.

Immortality is very clear; its a promotion on a particular unit, and when that unit dies, you get it back.

Because House Corrino use trained Laza Tigers in Children of Dune, as I said.

They use the tigers basically as assassins, to hunt a couple of people. Don't you think it would be pretty weird to see armies of tigers charging at tanks and soldiers with guns?

 

[Deliverator]

They use the tigers basically as assassins, to hunt a couple of people. Don't you think it would be pretty weird to see armies of tigers charging at tanks and soldiers with guns?

We can put a national limit on them. The concept was that they should be used assassin-like to pick off wandering melee units. Perhaps rather than making them Hidden Nationality we could make them able to enter foreign borders.

 

[Ahriman]

We can put a national limit on them.

Sounds good.

make them able to enter foreign borders.

What does this accomplish? They still can't attack anything unless you're at war, and they'll still be catapulted from enemy borders when war is declared.

 

[Jenaelha]

I was thinking Face Dancers are definitely Mimics but could also be used to incite revolts, steal tech, sabatoge.

How about Honored Matres, now this is a combat unit. Plus enslavement (unit capture).

 

[Slvynn]

I think Laza Tigers should have some AI intepretation. They should not go gainst bad odds. AI should use them for worker killing. That will be nasty and awesome.
We can also add them Assasin promotion (same as FFH assasins)