DuneWars: Battle for Arrakis

[Slvynn]

Turn 279 - we finish Liquid fuel , and starting firefly bombers. That will bring death upon our enemies. Next is Ladnsraad and Vendettas, Because we make peace with Harkonnens at price of Imperialism, at total gain of 4 cities and 1 tech, and good gold from pillaging. Now we will build 3 types of new units.
Shaddam Demanded Solaris Economy - we denied. we should wait for his backstab soon. But we have good military techs, and more important - Fireflies.

We starting building Missile troopers at 280.
Now our major aim is to get Missile Troopers transported to New cities. We have plently of Suspensor craft and 2 Carryalls, and looooots of thopters.
Please build good defence. Shaddam and Ecaz ploting againt us, Executrix is betrayer dog and can backstab.
Freemen traded Way of Liet at big cost 3 techs, netting 1 to 2 beaker exchange, but we dont mind. I revolted to Arrakis Paradise at last turn of my reign. Now beware all troops shoud go t6o ex-Harkonnen cities. Atm only maintainers of defence there -
Leto II, few Zealots, and bunch of air units. Now its a time to build and spread defences. In all cities with Pilot schools i advise to build Fireflies. Those are really good ones. Devastating ones. Hornets should boost fog every turn - main threat - Ecaz home landmass and Corinno land.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

280. Actually, the save provided didn't have Way of Liet traded, I was able to trade for it from Fremen for 2 techs only. Up'd research to allow for Landsraad in 5 turns with still positive cash flow.
281. Harkonnen makes peace with Ordos. Qizarate founded Sabtah (Ordos).
282. We discover a spy in Carthag. Harkonnen becomes a vassal of Shaddam.

283. Mahdi spreads in Al Gharb. The emperor demands gold from us, no thank you. (Shuttling troops towards frontier)

284. Landsraad in, Vendettas next. (I suppose we really should try to get a permanent alliance with the Fremen soon so Academies and Genetic Manipulation might be good for the next player) I revolt to Paradise and Great Convention (100% culture to help our cities bordering Ordos).
285. Tleilax revolt again in Qulumriyah.

286-7. I see the Tleilax really don't have much in terms of defense in their polar city, maybe we should get it to avoid more revolts in Qulumriyah.
288. Kuriya finishes our first catchbasin (I figure since it's surrounded by desert that this could help it grow in the long run).
289.Technocrat founded in Cave of Tears (Ecaz). I DOW on Master Scytale and destroy a suspensor gunship.

290. Not surprisingly, the emperor and his lapdog (ugly one too) declare on us. We capture Tabira Ridge with no losses.

291. Vendettas in, we can now adopt Kanly (for more experienced troops but 10% less military production). I anticipate that we'll switch back and forth between Kanly and Great Convention (the former just as we're about to finish a batch of troops, and the latter to maintain culture in frontier conquests). I will stay in GC for now.

I'm not sure about the next tech (academies will allow us to go for genetic manipulation so we can sign a perm alliance, but right now the Fremen won't even do a defensive pact with us--"we just don't like you enough"). On the other hand, we need more firepower against the Emperor (who's way ahead of us in tech). I leave it up for a vote.

Just to demonstrate the fireflies, I destroy 2 Imperial suspensor gunships after attacking them with fireflies.

And a little green in our lands to give our soldiers some encouragement...

 

[Ahriman]

288. Kuriya finishes our first catchbasin (I figure since it's surrounded by desert that this could help it grow in the long run).

This is something we should talk about.
Desert never terraforms; only rock, graben, rugged.

Also, tiles next to wells already have fresh water and so don't benefit from catchbasins.

We should build catchbasins ONLY where there are large numbers of rock, graben and rugged in tiles adjacent to cities AND when these tiles do not already have fresh water from adjacent wells.

Otherwise we are just hurting ourselves and paying water unnecessarily.

This means:
No catchbasins in polar cities.
Less likely to build catchbasins in coastal cities.
Less likely to build catchbasins in cities with lots of wells or surrounded by mesa.

Kuriya was a very unfortunate place to build a catchbasin, since it does not allow a single extra tile to be terraformed; it is surrounded by desert waste, mesa and a well.
Most of our cities are not really great for catchbasins, because we have so many wells around us already that we don't need them much.

Lets discuss and plan before we start building more catchbasins, since they can't be unbuilt (except by switching out of paradise, which destroys all our terraforming work).

Post the save and I'll take a look at techs and make suggestions, I forget what we do and don't have.
The primary benefit of academies is of course for universities.

 

[Ahriman]

Cities : Extra terraformable tiles from catchbasins

Arrakeen: 1
Sihaya Ridge: 1
Kuriya: 0
Al Yassanah: 2
Al Akabah: 2
New Bandalong: 6 (5 if we build a well SE of it, which we should)
Al Gharb: 1
Wind pass: 2
Carthag: 0
Polar cities: 0

So, new bandalong is the best place by far, and the 2's are worth considering.

But the others, no.
We might want to reconsider when we get the opportunity to build reservoirs (which give 2-range fresh water), but not for now; the waterloss isn't really worth the increase in global terraform chance.

This is why its unfortunate we've waited so long to get Way of Liet, the passive transformation takes a long time when we don't need to build catchbasins much.

Techwise: if we don't already have them, water discipline and desert industry are very obvious economy boosters.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

My bad. I already started another catchbasin in the city NE of Kuriya. I thought that the earlier we build catchbasins the faster we'll terraform (and that our goal is for a terraforming victory besides religious victory), so well developed cities would be best to build them?

What about the tile NW of Kuriya that's green now? Isn't that terraformed and the 2 E of that one would be terraformed?

Our choices for techs are early ones that we've missed (2 turns each for theocracy and harsh conditioning), some economic techs like sand farms (4), desert industry (5) and CHOAM (6), or cultural ones like culture of Dune (3) which we'll probably ignore. Actually ablative shields (6) and personal shields (10) are rather expensive but we'll have to tackle them sometime if we were to make any headway towards our opponents (most of whom have shields). My choice is for either Academies (7) (because it allows universities and it's on the way for Genetic Manipulation which allows perm. alliances) or Water economy (3) (to prevent cities which have catchbasins from shrinking). Solar energy (1) I'm pretty sure will be given to us when we make peace with the Tleilaxu.
Improved suspensors (10) and low energy vehicles (10) are best tackled when we have some banks and universities.

 

[Slvynn]

I dont thing thta attacking BTl was best thing to do, but what is done is done
Please note again - how much i talked and p[lanned before i made my turnset - We must to talk abit, espessially if you not sure about things you doing.
If we have problems we can Buy Ordos Again. Just tap him alittle and send towards 2 harkonnen cities. I think it may again prove usefull.
I think that Fireflies and Heavy Troopers and missile launchers is thing that our production should focus on. We already have big advantage of production, and its time to convert this advantage to Big numbers of really good units. Firefly/ML/HT are good, and if we aproach Shaddam as i approached Harkonnen - we'll make it fast. Also perhaps bombing Harkonnen cities and taking them with HTs and MLs will be good to - then just Haronnen will cease to exist.


Ah and - Another Pacifist - Where is your save? %)

 

[negyvenketto]

(and that our goal is for a terraforming victory besides religious victory)

Unfortunately you are completely wrong.
The only victory condition enabled is holy war.
That's why I don't really understand Ahriman's enthusiasm about terraforming as well.
It just a side effect. Positive, it's true, but a minor factor, I think.
I hoped we can use the Fremen more effectively after a long discussion, but 10+ turns of research is lost again. We should have gifted them Caste System. They will eventually research Water Discipline, if we don't let them do something we already know.
Sorry, don't want to just a little bit sad, you did't give us a chance to comment the previous save before you play. We are not in a hurry

 

[Ahriman]

I thought that the earlier we build catchbasins the faster we'll terraform

This is true, but it still doesn't make it worth building them everywhere.

o well developed cities would be best to build them?

We should build them in cities where they will actually help.
New Bandalong, and thne some of Al Yassanah: 2, Al Akabah: 2, Wind pass: 2

(and that our goal is for a terraforming victory besides religious victory),

Terraforming victory is disabled. ONLY a holy war victory wins the scenario for us.
I think we should tweak our win condition slightly; if the Fremen are our vassal (friendly, not capitulated) rather than permanently allied then that should also be sufficient.

What about the tile NW of Kuriya that's green now? Isn't that terraformed and the 2 E of that one would be terraformed?

The first tile had nothing to do with the catchbasin; it terraformed because it was adjacent to the well.
The catchbasin gives fresh water only in a 1-tile radius. So anything 2 tiles away from the city are unaffected.

I would prioritize Water Discipline, Desert Industry, Theocracy, CHOAM, Ablative shields, Personal shields.

I think that Fireflies and Heavy Troopers and missile launchers is thing that our production should focus on

Sounds fine.
We'll need a few more workers for level 2 wells and mines, which will also be a good boost.

That's why I don't really understand Ahriman's enthusiasm about terraforming as well.

Because the economic benefits from the extra water income are huge, especially when multiplied by greenhouses and eventually by water refineries (+30% combined). 5 extra grassland tiles means 13 extra food, which supports 6 extra pop/specialists!!! Even in the short run, 2 grasslands + 1 anchor grass means 3 extra pop.
We get much larger cities, which means much larger economy and production. Our happy cap is waaay beyond our city size.
Its not minor, and it happens *free*, without us having to invest time/hammers/workers in getting the bonus.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

Alright, I think I'm going to replay my turnset later today. I still think getting the Tleilax's only polar city is the right thing to do since their culture far surpasses ours there.
BTW, we've made the Fremen so strong (relatively) that I don't think they'll ever voluntarily vassalize, since they have rather good relationships with everybody and won't be attacked.

 

[Ahriman]

Alright, I think I'm going to replay my turnset later today. I still think getting the Tleilax's only polar city is the right thing to do since their culture far surpasses ours there.

It seems harmless to me, as long as we can defend it. What are people's objections? Neg diplomacy penalty with other factions - do they not hate Tleilaxu enough?

1 poorly placed catchbasin is just a learning experience IMO, not sufficient reason to have to replay your turn. I leave this decision up to the rest of you.

 

[Deliverator]

I wouldn't bother replaying. Just stick up the savegame, then we can analyse what I should do during my turn.

 

[negyvenketto]

no need to replay it wasn't a terrible turnset, just post the save so we can think about how should we continue.

 

[Ahriman]

Guys, can I suggest we all locally make the bugfix change mentioned in this post?

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=8637483&postcount=335

So as to be able to build Inquisitors?

ALso: AnotherPacifist, I note frmo your screenshots that you do not have Deliverator's Mahdi Zealot art patch, you might want to include that. Minor issue though, its purely graphical.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=8620577&postcount=870

 

[Slvynn]

Guys, can I suggest we all locally make the bugfix change mentioned in this post?

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=8637483&postcount=335

So as to be able to build Inquisitors?

ALso: AnotherPacifist, I note frmo your screenshots that you do not have Deliverator's Mahdi Zealot art patch, you might want to include that. Minor issue though, its purely graphical.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=8620577&postcount=870

I think its a must
Good find negyvenketto

 

[AnotherPacifist]

280. Traded for Way of Liet with Liquid fuel. Switched to Paradise.
281. Qizarate founded Sabtah (Ordos). Revolt at Qulumriyah.
282. Harkonnen vassalizes to Ordos! (interesting twist there)
283. DOW on Scytale since Tabira Ridge is too close (to avoid yet another revolt at Qulumriyah)
284. Landsraad in, Vendettas next. Tabira Ridge captured.
285. Killed a Tleilax suspensor gunship
286. Master Scytale capitulates and gives us Solar Energy! (Although this makes everybody hate us more and now Fremen has a -1 vassal attitude towards us.) Switch to Great Convention to combat culture near Ordos land.
287. Sister Helen asks for OB, we say no.
288. Ordos wants us to turn Imperium, no way. One of their stacks comes towards Carthag, I redeplot some aircraft towards that way.
289. Technocrat founded in Cave of Tears. Vendettas in, Water Discipline next. I redirected Master Scytale to research Desert Industries (18 turns for them), although it should be faster since they just captured Tirwal (smugglers). Harkonnen converts to Landsraad.
290. Ordos stack seems to be going towards the west (Akrab)
291. uneventful
292. Our fort up north got destroyed by a sandworm. I send our worker 1NE to work on another fort that should not be as vulnerable. The emperor wants to buy combat ornithorpters from us, no.
293. Water discipline in, Academies next. Sister Mohiam has theocracy but won't trade it.
294. Harkonnen demands Solaris Economy, no way. A great techman is born in Al Aqabah, I think that since we can't build any great wonders, it might be useful to use him for a national wonder down south (Carthag is a reasonably productive city to build Art of Kanly, which will allow us not to have to supply troops there--I've already built a barracks and about to finish Temple of Messiah there). So I load him up on a transport.
295. BG adopts Imperial Fealty.
296. Ecaz completes Imperial War Institute. I start Forbidden Palace in Carthag (11 turns)
297. Ecaz completes Istislah.
298. Uneventful
299. Water Cache in Nalour Rock got sabotaged (Ordos probably).

Spoiler :

We're at 34% now, so Theocracy might be good after Academies come in next turn.

 

[Slvynn]

I think its time to get military, as i told, using our great city/production ountcome, and just fold the ordos/harks or, as option Ix. Ix will be toughter, but perhaps with great amount of bombers and missile launchers we take him fast. He have 4 cities , that mean we need total 10-12 (8 from those will be lost) missile launchers to win the war fast.
Ordos is easier target to kill, since we are battling with culture and have hold on his landmass.
Ecaz is more defended and much more advanced. Atm imo he is toughtest nut to crack.
So, Ordos/ Hark, then Ix then Ecaz.. Shaddam is no threat because our Firefly + Thopter defence .

 

[Ahriman]

Our fort up north got destroyed by a sandworm. I send our worker 1NE to work on another fort that should not be as vulnerable.

Do you mean sandstorm? Worms cant get onto rock to destroy forts.

I think that since we can't build any great wonders, it might be useful to use him for a national wonder down south

I guess... or we could just settle him, for +3hammer4beaker1gold1culture. Which then all get multiplied up by science/hammer boosting buildings. I would think that Art of Kanly would make more sense in a city that has great generals settled in it.

Harkonnen demands Solaris Economy, no way.

I wonder if we need to tweak the AI leader parameters so the AI demands less stuff.
People shoudln't be so demanding of larger enemies with bigger armies. We seem to be gettnig a lot of demands.

We're at 34% now,

Do you mean 34% religion for Mahdi? Remember that we also need 50% land area to actually win.

Remember to build a coupld of catchbasins; new bandalong especially.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

I forgot to add I built a catchbasin in New Bandalong, which is why it has shrunk to pop 10. Maybe we should switch away from meritocracy soon into water discipline to grow those cities?

If we run Kanly it's probably OK not to build the Art of Kanly in a city with lots of generals. Right now our main cities in the south can easily crank out troops, but Carthag and the 2 former Harkonnen cities are rather precarious (fortified only with zealots) and I think having a troop-producing city closer to Ordos/Imperial land is important. In fact I've started another pilot school in our capital so that our mainland can concentrate on airpower (which can relocate anywhere).

 

[Ahriman]

Maybe we should switch away from meritocracy soon into water discipline to grow those cities?

Meritocracy civic (government) is a different category to Water Discipline civic (economy).
Water discipline tech though will let us build deep wells.

Also remember that desert industry gives us another +1 water from windtraps, which is huge.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

Meritocracy civic (government) is a different category to Water Discipline civic (economy).
Water discipline tech though will let us build deep wells.

Also remember that desert industry gives us another +1 water from windtraps, which is huge.

Sorry, I meant whatever civic that we're in other than water discipline (I think it had something to do with specialists)...