Valkrionn
The Hamster King
Congratulations on winning! 
[SCENARIO] Dungeon Adventure - the 133rd K.R.A.G.
- Thread starter Lutefisk Mafia
- Start date
Enthralled
Chieftain
- Joined
- Aug 7, 2007
- Messages
- 17
Great idea for a mod and I look forward to seeing where this will end up. I would love to see this become a base on which other people could build their own "rpgish" scenarios. One of the things I love most about FFH is the detailed stories behind the world, being able to expand on them in more detail like this is great.
Traps need some other mechanic to them, as they stand right now you have no obvious way to mitigate their affects or detect them. The very first chest I opened contained a teleport trap that placed me on the other side of the map. I hit 4-5 falling bolder traps trying to walk back to the entrance and was killed by a wolf.
It is nice that you plan to allow the scout class to detect (and disarm?) traps, and the ability to use summons to trigger them is a nice twist, but that still leaves the fighter with no way to deal with them. It also means the adept will have to get lucky with mana before being killed by traps.
IMHO you should have a popup on a trapped chest. It could say something like "this chest glows with a blue light, do you still want to open it?". This would allow you to choose a bad affect for the chance to get the treasure, or allow you to wait until you feel you can better handle the situation.
I also think that everyone should be allowed to detect traps, but only the scout class can disarm them. That way if you are walking down a hall and see 4 traps in a row you can decide to take a different path rather than just blindly getting killed.
It boils down to having meaningful choices to make, invisible random traps do not allow any choices to be made.
Traps need some other mechanic to them, as they stand right now you have no obvious way to mitigate their affects or detect them. The very first chest I opened contained a teleport trap that placed me on the other side of the map. I hit 4-5 falling bolder traps trying to walk back to the entrance and was killed by a wolf.
It is nice that you plan to allow the scout class to detect (and disarm?) traps, and the ability to use summons to trigger them is a nice twist, but that still leaves the fighter with no way to deal with them. It also means the adept will have to get lucky with mana before being killed by traps.
IMHO you should have a popup on a trapped chest. It could say something like "this chest glows with a blue light, do you still want to open it?". This would allow you to choose a bad affect for the chance to get the treasure, or allow you to wait until you feel you can better handle the situation.
I also think that everyone should be allowed to detect traps, but only the scout class can disarm them. That way if you are walking down a hall and see 4 traps in a row you can decide to take a different path rather than just blindly getting killed.
It boils down to having meaningful choices to make, invisible random traps do not allow any choices to be made.
I'm sure I'm doing something wrong. I downloaded this mod, put it in the ffh2 folder as instructed. I'm on patch z (not patch y don't know if that's affecting it) when I start I'm in a dungeon, however I am unable to interact with anything, my char earns 1xp per turn, but never gains any levels. Any ideas what I've done wrong?
Lutefisk Mafia
Inscrutable Enforcer
The scenario has not yet been merged with patch z, and I know that patch z had some significant revisions.
Could be one of two things:
1. Conflicts with patch z: This will be fixed eventually, I'm just taking a break from modding for a while.
2. Possible mistake in unzipping. The .zip file is a zip of the "assets" file, and so unzipping into the parent FfH2 file should work. If you have access to a text editor (or even better an editor that can recognize python formatting, like Notepad++), try opening the ScenarioFunctions.py file. If you see a bunch of code chunks that reference the DA scenario, then it was installed correctly. If not, then it wasn't.
I am guessing that it is #1, though.
Lutefisk Mafia
Inscrutable Enforcer
Based on feedback received so far, DA - 133rd KRAG will likely morph back into the original DA concept of a dedicated dungeon crawl.
Most of the positive comments focus on the dungeon portion of the scenario, which seems to confirm my suspicion of pent up demand for a "good ol' dungeon crawl."
Do people like the overmap/world map function, though? Or is there a preference for a sole dungeon focus?
I am also taking Kael's comments to heart: DA really does have more potential as a stand alone modmod of the FfH2 platform.
Most of the positive comments focus on the dungeon portion of the scenario, which seems to confirm my suspicion of pent up demand for a "good ol' dungeon crawl."
Do people like the overmap/world map function, though? Or is there a preference for a sole dungeon focus?
I am also taking Kael's comments to heart: DA really does have more potential as a stand alone modmod of the FfH2 platform.
Revolutionist
Chieftain
Keep in mind that I haven't played this yet. I was waiting for a more complete version. Now that I've come around to try it, my FfH is overly updated for it. Arg!
Went looking to see if I could nab 'y' still to give it a whirl, but no luck in finding it. Probably had it sitting around before, but a hard drive failure means I only have new stuff now.
That said, I do have a lot of experience with sending players into dungeons to die. Been running D&D games for a while. It's pretty applicable to the topic.
I'm not exactly sure what you mean by a 'dedicated dungeon crawl'. Something without a plot? Without a central town? I don't think the loss of either of those is really an improvement. A plot gives the player something to work toward, and a sense of accomplishment when they complete the goals of it.
Say what you want about World of Warcraft, but it was a lesson to the whole industry on how quests are more interesting than endless grinding. If it's Kael's comments about some of the RPG concepts not working so well here that's bothering you, I wouldn't be so concerned. At least what I took from that is not to cut out the 'RPG' stuff, but to make sure you choose the right ones. Don't make quests with a lot of back-and-forth to town. Or ones where you have to spend ages searching for that last goblin out of ten that you need to kill, that's wandering somewhere on this level. Use them to encourage exploration and to break up the standard 'crawling a little.
Going back to town with sacks of loot, so you can buy shinier toys is pretty common in dungeon crawlers. It's pretty necessary, since it gives you something to work toward, other than killing the King of UberEvil on floor 99.
Of course, maybe I'm wrong about what you meant by turning it back into a more dedicated state?
I hope that you don't nix the overworld and all that Lutefisk. It definately seems to be one of the most novel things. And I like the idea of searching through the wilderness to find new dungeons to explore. It gives you a feeling of a broader world.
The 'endless dungeon dive' idea always felt a little 'meh' to me. Being able to 'finish' a dungeon and move onto a different one is way more satisfying. Not sure how the dungeon levels are handled now. Could be interesting for each to have a set number of floors, then at the last one, generate a named 'boss' mob that gives some equipment or a gold reward, and an exit to the overworld.
To sum up both parts of what I said: You're probably not better off removing short-term goals. More RPGish elements, and the overworld/town give a lot of options to provide them. Without things to accomplish, things tend to get very dull. There are personal goals. 'I'll get to floor 10!', and such. But it's kind of empty if there's no point in doing it. If on the tenth floor you kill the nasty demon that was holding the town's healer hostage, and get a cool item in the process, it's suddenly much more interesting and meaningful.
Back on the D&Dish angle. What you want to give your players to provide a fun experience is motivation, progress, and choice.
Motivation: Why do I want to do this? That's the plot. The 'fluff'.
Progress: What to I get for it? That's the loot, and the accolades for completing goals or quests.
Choice:How do I get there? I didn't really touch on it. Though having that town available to cash in your earnings is certainly one part of it. It lets you choose what to buy. Enthralled spoke on the topic, with his talk of traps. The more choices (within a reasonable limit) that you give to a player, the happier they are. The more choices you take away, the more irritated they get.
Of course, I'm just a newb lurker. Maybe the regulars will weigh in on things.
And hopefully someone will materialize with a download location for patch 'y', or you'll get a new merged version out. So I can try it before any drastic surgery.
Can definately support this.
Having it as a modmod removes a lot of those artificial constraints that have been in place. It'll let you go a bit crazy. And judging by what I've seen of you work here, that's a good thing.
Went looking to see if I could nab 'y' still to give it a whirl, but no luck in finding it. Probably had it sitting around before, but a hard drive failure means I only have new stuff now.
That said, I do have a lot of experience with sending players into dungeons to die. Been running D&D games for a while. It's pretty applicable to the topic.
I'm not exactly sure what you mean by a 'dedicated dungeon crawl'. Something without a plot? Without a central town? I don't think the loss of either of those is really an improvement. A plot gives the player something to work toward, and a sense of accomplishment when they complete the goals of it.
Say what you want about World of Warcraft, but it was a lesson to the whole industry on how quests are more interesting than endless grinding. If it's Kael's comments about some of the RPG concepts not working so well here that's bothering you, I wouldn't be so concerned. At least what I took from that is not to cut out the 'RPG' stuff, but to make sure you choose the right ones. Don't make quests with a lot of back-and-forth to town. Or ones where you have to spend ages searching for that last goblin out of ten that you need to kill, that's wandering somewhere on this level. Use them to encourage exploration and to break up the standard 'crawling a little.
Going back to town with sacks of loot, so you can buy shinier toys is pretty common in dungeon crawlers. It's pretty necessary, since it gives you something to work toward, other than killing the King of UberEvil on floor 99.
Of course, maybe I'm wrong about what you meant by turning it back into a more dedicated state?
I hope that you don't nix the overworld and all that Lutefisk. It definately seems to be one of the most novel things. And I like the idea of searching through the wilderness to find new dungeons to explore. It gives you a feeling of a broader world.
The 'endless dungeon dive' idea always felt a little 'meh' to me. Being able to 'finish' a dungeon and move onto a different one is way more satisfying. Not sure how the dungeon levels are handled now. Could be interesting for each to have a set number of floors, then at the last one, generate a named 'boss' mob that gives some equipment or a gold reward, and an exit to the overworld.
To sum up both parts of what I said: You're probably not better off removing short-term goals. More RPGish elements, and the overworld/town give a lot of options to provide them. Without things to accomplish, things tend to get very dull. There are personal goals. 'I'll get to floor 10!', and such. But it's kind of empty if there's no point in doing it. If on the tenth floor you kill the nasty demon that was holding the town's healer hostage, and get a cool item in the process, it's suddenly much more interesting and meaningful.
Back on the D&Dish angle. What you want to give your players to provide a fun experience is motivation, progress, and choice.
Motivation: Why do I want to do this? That's the plot. The 'fluff'.
Progress: What to I get for it? That's the loot, and the accolades for completing goals or quests.
Choice:How do I get there? I didn't really touch on it. Though having that town available to cash in your earnings is certainly one part of it. It lets you choose what to buy. Enthralled spoke on the topic, with his talk of traps. The more choices (within a reasonable limit) that you give to a player, the happier they are. The more choices you take away, the more irritated they get.
Of course, I'm just a newb lurker. Maybe the regulars will weigh in on things.
And hopefully someone will materialize with a download location for patch 'y', or you'll get a new merged version out. So I can try it before any drastic surgery.
Can definately support this.
Having it as a modmod removes a lot of those artificial constraints that have been in place. It'll let you go a bit crazy. And judging by what I've seen of you work here, that's a good thing.
Psychic_Llamas
Wizard in the Making
i liked the dungeon crawls the most, but an overworld map is very important. i think your characters should have more movement in the world map though, its very tedious to get from A to B
perhaps even teleporter improvements that you can teleport from dungeons you have already explored.
perhaps even teleporter improvements that you can teleport from dungeons you have already explored.
kenken244
Grammar Nazi
I would like it if it would be possible to make maps easily using worldbuilder. It would make it much more fun to have a dungeon map actually made by a person and not randomly generated. If this means scrapping the overworld, I'm fine with that.
Psychic_Llamas
Wizard in the Making
Maps ARE easy to make though
kenken244
Grammar Nazi
Not if they are made using python.
Psychic_Llamas
Wizard in the Making
you mean a new mapscript then? 
then i agree lol
then i agree lol
Lutefisk Mafia
Inscrutable Enforcer
Just writing a quick note to say that, yes, I am still alive.
I have very little time to code these days. Three kids in diapers is absolutely wearing me down! It seems that all of my waking hours are spent performing input/output functions on small people.
Accordingly, I am waiting until the next FfH2 release after the "z" patch to update DA. I know it has been frustrating for people who have patched to "z," since DA was only patched up to "y."
Also, I will likely make completion of the rescue missions result in a player victory. Instead of adding more content to DA-133rd KRAG, I think the time would be better spent creating a fresh modmod off of the last stable base of FfH2.
Moreover, before I even get to that, I have had some requests for code "snippet" releases, such as the map switching mechanism. I hope to put some of the features from DA-133rd KRAG out there so that other modders can use them in their own mods. Sharing is nice!
One thing that I hope to improve as a part of an eventual modmod is the whole map system. I am pleased with the way things can switch back and forth, but I want to see if I can implement persistent maps. It will take some doing, but I know it can be done!
As a final note, I have come to the conclusion that I will not be able to handle design and creation of the next generation of a DA modmod all by myself. Not right now, but at some point, I plan to start a brand new thread for the successor modmod, and will be recruiting a team to help.
Thank you all for the support and helpful comments so far. I'll keep you posted!
I have very little time to code these days. Three kids in diapers is absolutely wearing me down! It seems that all of my waking hours are spent performing input/output functions on small people.
Accordingly, I am waiting until the next FfH2 release after the "z" patch to update DA. I know it has been frustrating for people who have patched to "z," since DA was only patched up to "y."
Also, I will likely make completion of the rescue missions result in a player victory. Instead of adding more content to DA-133rd KRAG, I think the time would be better spent creating a fresh modmod off of the last stable base of FfH2.
Moreover, before I even get to that, I have had some requests for code "snippet" releases, such as the map switching mechanism. I hope to put some of the features from DA-133rd KRAG out there so that other modders can use them in their own mods. Sharing is nice!
One thing that I hope to improve as a part of an eventual modmod is the whole map system. I am pleased with the way things can switch back and forth, but I want to see if I can implement persistent maps. It will take some doing, but I know it can be done!
As a final note, I have come to the conclusion that I will not be able to handle design and creation of the next generation of a DA modmod all by myself. Not right now, but at some point, I plan to start a brand new thread for the successor modmod, and will be recruiting a team to help.
Thank you all for the support and helpful comments so far. I'll keep you posted!
Psychic_Llamas
Wizard in the Making
i would love to volunteer my services in any way for when you start recruiting a team 
That would definitely be a Good Thing. I've always disliked roguelikes where the map changes when you go up and down again (except for ADOM's infinite caves where it somehow makes sense).
Lutefisk Mafia
Inscrutable Enforcer
Am trying to download .41 now to make a new merge. Filefront is being hinky, but I hope I'll get it soon!
Lutefisk Mafia
Inscrutable Enforcer
Looks like it is not going to work tonight -- I'll try again later!
Lutefisk Mafia
Inscrutable Enforcer
Release 4 is now out.
This does not change anything in terms of gameplay or coding from the previous release. Release 4 simply merges the scenario into FfH2 0.41, so that people can play it again!
As always, thanks to everyone for the comments and feedback.
I would especially like to thank Kael for the favorable mention he made of this scenario in the last few minutes of Modcast #32. His kind words motivated me to get this merge done!
This does not change anything in terms of gameplay or coding from the previous release. Release 4 simply merges the scenario into FfH2 0.41, so that people can play it again!
As always, thanks to everyone for the comments and feedback.
I would especially like to thank Kael for the favorable mention he made of this scenario in the last few minutes of Modcast #32. His kind words motivated me to get this merge done!
Psychic_Llamas
Wizard in the Making
YAY! now get back to modding :whip:
:whip:
Kael
Deity
I would especially like to thank Kael for the favorable mention he made of this scenario in the last few minutes of Modcast #32. His kind words motivated me to get this merge done!
You are welcome, I was just coming to post about that (I just listened to the episode myself).
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