Dwarven Mines

Not sure I completely follow what you are asking. Just checked and Coast and Ocean are both defined in TerrainInfos, but so are Hill and Peak, so that isn't exactly reliable. I would imagine however that the <bWater>1</bWater> tag is quite important if these are utilized, and you could make variants of Ocean and Coast to account for different types of ocean and coast to create sub-terrains if you wanted.
Even if you didn't follow, you still answered my question :). The fact that there is a <bWater> tag means that a terrain is either water or not water. I was hoping there was a list buried somewhere of allowed terrain types for each height, so that I could make a terrain possible as both water and not water.

And I have no idea what hills and peaks are doing in TerrainInfos. I can only assume it's for art/sound purposes, because they are both listed as water terrain, graphical only, and the peak entry doesn't include impassable.
 
One more thing about mines... I enabled the <bActAsCity> tag, so units will be able to gain weapon promotions from them. Planning on doing so for citadels anyway, so it fits.

One thing to remember is to have the Khazad worldspell (motherload) give money for each of the stages of the Dwarven Settlement improvement. I would have it be treated like a regular mine as far as the amount of gold you get.

Also, I wanted to make it clear that I didn't think the Khazad should be able to build normal mines anywhere; I think they should be under the normal constraints of only on metal resources and hills. Otherwise, their world spell could be abused (a single city with filled fat cross would get you 1,000gp (20 tiles * 50gp each)).


Also, good job on the mushrooms. That's pretty cool and I look forward to getting to try out the changes whenever you release them.
 
One thing to remember is to have the Khazad worldspell (motherload) give money for each of the stages of the Dwarven Settlement improvement. I would have it be treated like a regular mine as far as the amount of gold you get.

Also, I wanted to make it clear that I didn't think the Khazad should be able to build normal mines anywhere; I think they should be under the normal constraints of only on metal resources and hills. Otherwise, their world spell could be abused (a single city with filled fat cross would get you 1,000gp (20 tiles * 50gp each)).


Also, good job on the mushrooms. That's pretty cool and I look forward to getting to try out the changes whenever you release them.

Woops, forgot about the worldspell... Good catch. :goodjob:

Mines are still built as normal, to do otherwise I'd have to mess with either the improvement itself, or get fancy with python. :lol:

I'm planning on just finishing up the Infernal/Mercurian heroes for the Minor Leaders aspect of my mod, and then releasing the patch. ;)
 
haha, I thought so too... The Dwarves should be living off mushrooms, not corn. :lol: All the valid improvements are also able to discover mushrooms, just like metals.

Yeah dwarves like to build underground fisheries too. Had a discussion about that in the Warhammer forum, though really that is more of a Warhammer thing or an ooooooooooooold D&D theme.
 
I think dwarven settlements should be un-pillageable, personally.

Also, make the Wall Defender promo apply here too. To it's ever growing lsit of prereqs, add prereqimprovementsontile for all levels of normal fort, and dwarven settlement. If that's not feasible, make another "Fort Defender" promo.

The main reason why, is so that units can get extra ranged attack strength when shooting from a fortification.
 
I think dwarven settlements should be un-pillageable, personally.

Also, make the Wall Defender promo apply here too. To it's ever growing lsit of prereqs, add prereqimprovementsontile for all levels of normal fort, and dwarven settlement. If that's not feasible, make another "Fort Defender" promo.

The main reason why, is so that units can get extra ranged attack strength when shooting from a fortification.

How about if they became lairs if capture? The dwarf player would have to explore them to regain them?
 
I think dwarven settlements should be un-pillageable, personally.

Also, make the Wall Defender promo apply here too. To it's ever growing lsit of prereqs, add prereqimprovementsontile for all levels of normal fort, and dwarven settlement. If that's not feasible, make another "Fort Defender" promo.

The main reason why, is so that units can get extra ranged attack strength when shooting from a fortification.

I think that would be far too strong, personally.

Adding prereqimprovement would make it only apply when the building AND improvement exist on the tile, which isn't possible.. has to be a new promotion. I have some ideas of my own here though.

How about if they became lairs if capture? The dwarf player would have to explore them to regain them?

Again, too strong. If enclaves and Bedouin Villages are pillageable, these should be as well.
 
an un-pillageable improvement is what the dwarves really need, though.. They're one of the civs realy made for turtling, but people can just pillage things around you and make sieges easy. These unpillageable uber improvements would be useful at fighting back hippus hordes. All they'd really have to do is put someone in your settlement to prevent you from working it, but it's really frustrating when 60 turns of buildup goes down the drain because a 5 movement horseman came out of nowhere, pillaged your fort, and vanished back into nothing, without you even seeing it.

And it really makes no sense that forts can even be pillaged at all. Unless you're bringing siege weapons or explosives, you just DON'T "pillage" a fortification. It can't be done. Forts are designed to hold against the greatest onslaughts. A guy with a sword can't just chop the stone walls down.


I guess what I'm saying here, is that not only should dwarven settlements be unpillageable, but ALL forts should too.
 
well maybe the first level of build should be pillageable but later builds should not?
 
an un-pillageable improvement is what the dwarves really need, though.. They're one of the civs realy made for turtling, but people can just pillage things around you and make sieges easy. These unpillageable uber improvements would be useful at fighting back hippus hordes. All they'd really have to do is put someone in your settlement to prevent you from working it, but it's really frustrating when 60 turns of buildup goes down the drain because a 5 movement horseman came out of nowhere, pillaged your fort, and vanished back into nothing, without you even seeing it.

And it really makes no sense that forts can even be pillaged at all. Unless you're bringing siege weapons or explosives, you just DON'T "pillage" a fortification. It can't be done. Forts are designed to hold against the greatest onslaughts. A guy with a sword can't just chop the stone walls down.


I guess what I'm saying here, is that not only should dwarven settlements be unpillageable, but ALL forts should too.


As much as it pains me to agree with Warkirby.... ;)


It really makes more sense to capture forts than to pillage them. Even a battered and half-ruined fort would have some defensive use. However, what the later stages of the Dwarf Hold represents is a thriving population of Dwarves...and that could be put to the sword post-capture.

My only concern would be if you make forts permanent you'd also block the ability to change your mind later and build something else in the tile. That could suck.
 
an un-pillageable improvement is what the dwarves really need, though.. They're one of the civs realy made for turtling, but people can just pillage things around you and make sieges easy. These unpillageable uber improvements would be useful at fighting back hippus hordes. All they'd really have to do is put someone in your settlement to prevent you from working it, but it's really frustrating when 60 turns of buildup goes down the drain because a 5 movement horseman came out of nowhere, pillaged your fort, and vanished back into nothing, without you even seeing it.

And it really makes no sense that forts can even be pillaged at all. Unless you're bringing siege weapons or explosives, you just DON'T "pillage" a fortification. It can't be done. Forts are designed to hold against the greatest onslaughts. A guy with a sword can't just chop the stone walls down.


I guess what I'm saying here, is that not only should dwarven settlements be unpillageable, but ALL forts should too.

There are two problems with unpillageable improvements: moving the improvements and game balance.

For example, say that forts were unpillageable; you have your Elohim empire and you have your borders with the Clan very well defended, as well you should. Eventually you culture-flip one of their cities so it's time to put up new curtains and get some irrigation ditches dug. But wait, you have an unmovable Maginot Line that cuts into your new city's fat cross. What's worse, you discover smelting and it turns out one of those forts is sitting on an iron resource just begging to be mined. But you can't because your now defunct forts are cluttering up the landscape and refuse to be torn down. Woe is you. And while this might seem minor, we are gamers, we are optimizers and it gets under our skin when we can't reconfigure our stuff to make it work better. Back in Fire, the dwarves had unpillageable mines and that feature got pulled precisely because people eventually wanted to replace the mines with something else (windmills, for example, or they invaded the Khazad and didn't want their new city to be surrounded by mines...).

The second issue is game balance. The whole point behind cottages is that they are freakin' awesome once they hit the level of towns BUT are very weak to being pillaged by bellicose neighbors on horseback. The game even incentivizes that behavior by making the various cottage improvements worth more money when pillaged than other improvements. The same balancing mechanic should hold true for other slow-mature, high-yield improvements. As such, the Khazad can invest in buildings and improvements and domestic research so that their empire, though small, is MIGHTY whereas the Doviello are investing in a big military and military-related research and they are competitive despite the fact that they're running a deficit and couldn't build a library even if they wanted. To make the Khazad super-improvements (the cornerstone of their economy in FF+) unpillageable would be giving the turtle-strategy too much of an advantage.

So yeah, having a single Hippus horsemen somehow demolish a fortress/mine/farm which extends a mile below ground in a single turn does seem ridiculous. However, crunch beats fluff so we have to let that happen. Next time the Khazad should leave one or two axmen sitting on the defensive bonus giving super-improvement so the hippus have to pillage the unimportant stuff instead. If you really want a fluff explanation, you can claim the raiders collapsed the mine entrance, causing the denizens to suffocate or something. Heck, if you build a big enough bonfire inside the mouth of a mine, you can draw out enough of the oxygen to asphyxiate the miners. Regardless, the Khazad need to drive off the horsies, rebuild and do a better job of protecting their hard-points. Getting razed is Kilmorph's way of telling you to train more Axmen (or Auditors, if you are playing FF+).
 
There are two problems with unpillageable improvements: moving the improvements and game balance.

For example, say that forts were unpillageable; you have your Elohim empire and you have your borders with the Clan very well defended, as well you should. Eventually you culture-flip one of their cities so it's time to put up new curtains and get some irrigation ditches dug. But wait, you have an unmovable Maginot Line that cuts into your new city's fat cross. What's worse, you discover smelting and it turns out one of those forts is sitting on an iron resource just begging to be mined. But you can't because your now defunct forts are cluttering up the landscape and refuse to be torn down.

I said unpillageable, not completely immovable.

If possible, it could simply be made that you can build other improvements over it, destroying it in the process. Or perhaps a "Disassemble Fort" spell, with an 8 turn casting time. To remove it. Castable by workers when inside your territory only.
 
The second issue is game balance. The whole point behind cottages is that they are freakin' awesome once they hit the level of towns BUT are very weak to being pillaged by bellicose neighbors on horseback. The game even incentivizes that behavior by making the various cottage improvements worth more money when pillaged than other improvements. The same balancing mechanic should hold true for other slow-mature, high-yield improvements. As such, the Khazad can invest in buildings and improvements and domestic research so that their empire, though small, is MIGHTY whereas the Doviello are investing in a big military and military-related research and they are competitive despite the fact that they're running a deficit and couldn't build a library even if they wanted. To make the Khazad super-improvements (the cornerstone of their economy in FF+) unpillageable would be giving the turtle-strategy too much of an advantage.

You have a good point about cottages, but they are just that. cottages. Places designed for comfort, not security. I agree entirely about cottages.

What we're talking about here, is a fort. A massive fortress. I'm saying it shouldn't be possible to break that in one turn, and CERTANLY not possible to destroy it with anything other than siege weapons.

Perhaps, as a middle ground, make forts and dwarven forts only destroyable with siege weapons, or fireballs.



As to defending it with units, that seems logical, certainly. Until you consider another silly logic leap. The hippus will throw horsemen at you repeatedly. Despite the fact that a horseman would be utterly useless at besieging a fortified position, horsemen in FFH seem to be incredibly adept at doing that. They run up, injure your poor defenders, then flee again. repeat ad infinitum. I mean what do they do? Charge their horses into your walls suicidally hoping to break them down? How can a horseman accomplish anything there? What can a horseman possibly do to injure someone hiding behind 5 feet-thick stone walls?

I guess what I'm saying here, is that cavalry are illogical, and forts don't work as well at defending as they should, because of that. Perhaps cavalry need a city attack penalty.

Also, I really hate the hippus.
 
You know, it would be really easy to put a LOTR/Warhmmer twist on this.

Rather than make the fort permanent (which is a headache for all the reasons listed above)...change the line of xml that defines what the fort/dwarven mine downgrades to from >< to >GOBLIN_FORT<. Most of the time it is barbarians pillaging forts anyway...

This way the fort doesn't just magically disappear...it becomes a dangerous ruin filled with nasty goblins and such. If ignored it will become a problem.
 
I don't know if this is doable, but you could perhaps make the forts to be costly to pillage. I mean, they likely have a militia at least right? And probably some devious traps as well. So, you could pillage it, but it would damage the unit doing it. The question would be if the AI would get it. Well, and it would be a headache for Raiders civs, like the Svarts.
 
So what was the final result of all this discussion? Addition of the new Khazad-specific mine/fort/town? Was there a corresponding nerf to something for them or is this just a bonus?
 
Perhaps cavalry need a city attack penalty.
YES! I agree entirely. Mounted units are supposed to be superior on the open ground but worse in cities.
I don't know if this is doable, but you could perhaps make the forts to be costly to pillage. I mean, they likely have a militia at least right? And probably some devious traps as well. So, you could pillage it, but it would damage the unit doing it. The question would be if the AI would get it. Well, and it would be a headache for Raiders civs, like the Svarts.
They only have a militia if you've bothered to station one there. It's the same way your cities don't magically spawn defenders if you leave them vacant. Troops = Units, and it needs to stay that way. If anything, create a 'militia' unit and spawn it on the dwarven mine, like Orbis fort commanders.
 
So what was the final result of all this discussion? Addition of the new Khazad-specific mine/fort/town? Was there a corresponding nerf to something for them or is this just a bonus?

They're getting -1 food from farms, making their already bad food problems even worse. It's mentioned in the FFplus thread. Valkrionn hasn't responded to posts about it yet.
 
They're getting -1 food from farms, making their already bad food problems even worse. It's mentioned in the FFplus thread. Valkrionn hasn't responded to posts about it yet.

Yeah. I just caught up on that thread. I've never had any food problems with the Khazad that I haven't had with any other food-eating civ.
 
Back
Top Bottom