Early exploration

[Rwn]

From the Size Matter topic:

I like early exploration to take a little longer. It's not just about getting everything first, it's about taking a while to explore, slowly expanding the known world.

I feel the same way. I'm a bit disappointed that you can explore your whole continent, including resource locations (when they appear later on), natural wonders, continent limits, very remote other civs, etc. as early as Prehistorical era - ideally I'd slowly expand my knowledge of the world around me even in the Ancient and Classical eras, then enter another phase of exploration in Renaissance through sea travel.

Of course, I could refrain myself from doing so, but that's not totally satisfying, since other civs would not be constrained and could grab goody huts, mess up close to your borders while you can't, I'd establish contact with all other civs in the continent anyway, etc.

I see two potential directions to limit early exploration and slowly alleviate the constraint:
- Preventing your units from moving further than X tiles from your borders, with X slowly raising with some techs (or damaging them when they do so). Of course, if you really want to explore further, there's always the possibility to build forts.
- Damage units when they're not inside your borders. The damage would be dependent on the terrain (high for desert, barren, etc. but low for grasslands), would be reduced/cancelled by later techs and units would not heal on a terrain that damages them. This means that unless you're ready to sacrifice a unit (regardless of its ability to face barbarians), you'd stay relatively close to your borders.

Another additional option could be to prevent river crossing until you discover a tech.

In addition to only allow a gradual knowledge of the world around you, this would reinforce era-specific gameplays:
- Prehistoric era: only one or few cities, contact with other civs mostly inexistant, the main "game" and threat are animals and barbarians
- Ancient era: contact with other civs, likely too far to perform city invasion with an army, but combat, capture, slavery improvements pillaging is definitely possible
- Classical era: city invasion is now really an option; exploration is mostly unconstrained, but enemy's borders will prevent you from exploring what's behind them.

I'm not sure if that is technically possible to implement, but if so I'd be interested to know how and get your thoughts on this.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

One of Platyping's mods does the first. It is on my list of things to do. My idea is that recon units can go further from your borders than hunter units which can go further than all other units. Increases in range would be based on technologies and resources. I would expect that the limit would not hamper getting your tribes to the where you ant them...

I'll move the priority up.

 

[Rwn]

One of Platyping's mods does the first. It is on my list of things to do. My idea is that recon units can go further from your borders than hunter units which can go further than all other units. Increases in range would be based on technologies and resources. I would expect that the limit would not hamper getting your tribes to the where you ant them...

I'll move the priority up.

Great! Regarding tribes, I don't think that will be a problem. With just 3 tiles allowance from the border (which will be at least 2 tiles wide in the capital by the time you get tribes) it's already enough to have non-overlapping city limits (well, until metro admin) - possibly not on the best location around, but still good enough. If one really want to put a city further, it'll always be possible (though costly in time) to build a fort/tower.

Do you have the name/a link to Platyping's mod? I'd be curious to see how it's done.

 

[BlueGenie]

I second this motion. Well, at least agree with that it would be good to have, at least as an option on gamestart perhaps?

Cheers

 

[Rezca]

There is one mod (Pie's ancient Euorpe I think?) that has the World Map slowly deteriorate and return to its fogged state some turns after you explore it until you research Map Making or something. So exploration in the Ancient/Stone-Age was more or less useless unless you were willing to invest in a LOT of units to stand sentry duty in the places you explored - and were willing to replace the ones eaten by lions or bears, since the animals were like ten times as strong in that mod, but I digress

 

[Sparth]

Also in PAE your units which go to far from you civ borders can be destroyed by elements, eaten by animals or simply defect.

 

[JosEPh_II]

I second this motion. Well, at least agree with that it would be good to have, at least as an option on gamestart perhaps?

Cheers

Option yes, default no.

JosEPh

 

[Rezca]

Also in PAE your units which go to far from you civ borders can be destroyed by elements, eaten by animals or simply defect.

I've only had them get eaten by animals so far. I didn't know they could disappear by other means yet since they never got that chance

Option yes, default no.

JosEPh

This. Anything that severely hampers early expansion and conquest should really be Optional and not Mandatory. I can see how slower exploration would be appealing (more than half of the world explored before the Ancient age starts? Seriously?? ), but putting too much pressure on it might be a bit... Not as much fun for some people.

It's already difficult to take cities before the advent of Classic-Era siege weapons - even if they aren't on a hill - making just getting your troops to the same city more difficult would be a nightmare!

 

[LumenAngel]

There is one mod (Pie's ancient Euorpe I think?) that has the World Map slowly deteriorate and return to its fogged state some turns after you explore it until you research Map Making or something. So exploration in the Ancient/Stone-Age was more or less useless unless you were willing to invest in a LOT of units to stand sentry duty in the places you explored - and were willing to replace the ones eaten by lions or bears, since the animals were like ten times as strong in that mod, but I digress

I prefer this way, and wihth stronger animals (because hunters kill them to easily)

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

There is one mod (Pie's ancient Euorpe I think?) that has the World Map slowly deteriorate and return to its fogged state some turns after you explore it until you research Map Making or something. So exploration in the Ancient/Stone-Age was more or less useless unless you were willing to invest in a LOT of units to stand sentry duty in the places you explored - and were willing to replace the ones eaten by lions or bears, since the animals were like ten times as strong in that mod, but I digress

It is used in a number of mods and really it only hampers the AI because humans can remember what is there anyway. Which is why I dislike it so much.

Have you noticed that in PAE goody huts can appear in places you have already explored?

Option yes, default no.

JosEPh

Wont be either. It has the potential to slow things down big time so it will be a mod you will need to install. Which means that if you use the SVN you will need to be careful not to uninstall it when you do the next update.

I prefer this way, and wihth stronger animals (because hunters kill them to easily)

People complain about their units being killed by animals already.

 

[LumenAngel]

People complain about their units being killed by animals already.

Give them some stones, and look how they kill lions with just this

 

[JosEPh_II]

It is used in a number of mods and really it only hampers the AI because humans can remember what is there anyway. Which is why I dislike it so much.

Have you noticed that in PAE goody huts can appear in places you have already explored?


Wont be either. It has the potential to slow things down big time so it will be a mod you will need to install. Which means that if you use the SVN you will need to be careful not to uninstall it when you do the next update.



People complain about their units being killed by animals already.

Thank you!

In all this discussion not once was map size considered. A grievous mistake to overlook.

JosEPh

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Thank you!

In all this discussion not once was map size considered. A grievous mistake to overlook.

JosEPh

Actually no. The point is to limit movement so the same limits can apply for all sizes. The mod just becomes more relevant the larger the size.

 

[gamer1978]

like this idea. yea to make it more realistic you should not be able to explore the whole continent, definately not in prehistoric. but I have no clue how you guys can figure that one out or if it is worth it/ too much trouble.

 

[Hydromancerx]

If you have terrain damage on then deserts and tundra can become huge barriers for exploration. I love PerfectWorld2f map because it usually generate huge deserts in the center of the map which makes for great barriers especially if mountains also block off the area.

 

[gamer1978]

If you have terrain damage on then deserts and tundra can become huge barriers for exploration. I love PerfectWorld2f map because it usually generate huge deserts in the center of the map which makes for great barriers especially if mountains also block off the area.

I tried that map a few months ago. Idk did not like it much. Too much desert and mountains for me. I understand what you mean though how that terrain can stop you definately and with that option of getting terrain damage. I usually play C2C Hemispheres...4 continents on giant size. Seems pretty good for me. Of course turn times get long around late classical or medieval era....but that has been like that for a while and its a totally different subject heh.

 

[climat]

I tried that map a few months ago. Idk did not like it much. Too much desert and mountains for me. I understand what you mean though how that terrain can stop you definately and with that option of getting terrain damage. I usually play C2C Hemispheres...4 continents on giant size. Seems pretty good for me. Of course turn times get long around late classical or medieval era....but that has been like that for a while and its a totally different subject heh.

Mapscripts whose names start with C2C_ give too few deserts, tundra and Artic terrains for my taste. But Perfect_ mapscripts give too many..

 

[Faustmouse]

Try the Desert Planet Scenario then. It's awesome if you like terrain damage and hindered exploration

 

[JosEPh_II]

Try the Desert Planet Scenario then. It's awesome if you like terrain damage and hindered exploration

There you go! Faustmouse has the answer for all you wanting longer exploration times.

For those of us that don't use terrain Damage, we can use Perfect Mongoose or Archipelago, or Lakes etc.

Problem solved and no Coding changes needed! Voila!!!

JosEPh

 

[Hydromancerx]

There you go! Faustmouse has the answer for all you wanting longer exploration times.

For those of us that don't use terrain Damage, we can use Perfect Mongoose or Archipelago, or Lakes etc.

Problem solved and no Coding changes needed! Voila!!!

JosEPh

That is a great point, having lots of little islands can slow exploration, especially if the islands are separate by ocean tiles.