"Eastern Europe" - why we hate the term

[Marla_Singer]

I've always had difficulties with people asking others to use another expression to call a place of theirs. A good example is Chinese people who asked to Westerners to call their capital city "Beijing" instead of "Peking". Since then, it is seen as pejorative in English to call that city "Peking" as it used to be called earlier.

In Italian, the French capital city is called "Parigi". I have no problem with that. However, let's imagine that one day the French president would ask to Italians to call it "Paris" because distorting its name is offensive to France. All of a sudden, Italians who would call it "Parigi" would be considered as disrespectful towards French people. The fact is that the word "Parigi" isn't offensive in itself, but it would be changed as such if we would tell to Italians it is.

I feel that idea of using "Central Europe" instead of "Eastern Europe" to be very similar in concept. People who use the denomination "Eastern Europe" aren't necessarily using it pejoratively, it's only the interpretation of Czechs and Poles which made it pejorative. That's how you invent a "despise" where there is none at the beginning.

 

[Winner]

Come on Winner. The Midwest is actually located in the Eastern half of the United States and people don't make a whole fuss because of it.

Midwest wasn't separated from the rest of the US by kilometers of barbed wire.

The expression "Eastern Europe" is pejorative only to those who want to see it this way.

We see it this way and we have a damn good reason. As I said, in Czech Rep., Poland or Hungary, nobody considers these countries as "Eastern Europe". For us it's Central Europe, a historical region which doesn't suffer of negative connotations (which, as we estabilished, exist in case of Eastern Europe) and which we can identify with.

 

[warpus]

Sounds pretty PC to me, but it might happen. Not in this thread though, where I face fierce rebuttal and any concession would surely be seen as a sign of weakness!

Hell, I might even start using "central europe".

We don't like to be reminded of the Soviet occupation of our countries. Surely you understand that.

 

[Marla_Singer]

Midwest wasn't separated from the rest of the US by kilometers of barbed wire.

The expression "Eastern Europe" is pejorative only to those who want to see it this way.

We see it this way and we have a damn good reason. As I said, in Czech Rep., Poland or Hungary, nobody considers these countries as "Eastern Europe". For us it's Central Europe, a historical region which doesn't suffer of negative connotations (which, as we estabilished, exist in case of Eastern Europe) and which we can identify with.

Well, fine, you see it pejoratively because it recalls you the Soviet domination. I understand that. However, I fully reject your assumption that anyone calling that area Eastern Europe are necessarily despiseful in doing so.

Considering it as Eastern is meaningful from a Western point of view, and drawing the line between what could be called "East" and what couldn't is necessarily artificial. Western Europeans don't consider Czech people negatively because they've been invaded by the Soviets. This is only a bad trick done to you in History and we're sorry about that. It could have happened to anyone.

 

[Ecofarm]

We don't like to be reminded of the Soviet occupation of our countries. Surely you understand that.

I think so. One of my best friends at Uni is Latvian.

Beligerence aside, I think people should be called what they call themselves. For example: the changing of Eskimo to Innuit.

One notable exception: you cannot call black people what they call themselves in rap music.

 

[Swedishguy]

North America and South America is Western Europe to me.

 

[Marla_Singer]

We don't like to be reminded of the Soviet occupation of our countries. Surely you understand that.

Being called Eastern Europe only means that to you.

We all have our burden. It's been 68 years that Germany invaded France, and Americans still laugh about it. At least, I don't see anyone making fun of the Czechs because they've been invaded by the USSR.

 

[Winner]

I've always had difficulties with people asking others to use another expression to call a place of theirs. A good example is Chinese people who asked to Westerners to call their capital city "Beijing" instead of "Peking". Since then, it is seen as pejorative in English to call that city "Peking" as it used to be called earlier.

In Czech, we call it Peking

Anyway, it is not the same thing. You say "Prague" instead of "Praha" and we say "Paříž" instead of "Paris." These are names, they don't have any connotations.

Eastern Europe however is a term which was created and used for countries under the Communist rule. It was used in opposition to Western Europe (the good part of Europe, the land of free, brave, rich...) to describe the bad part of Europe, where people are unfree, poor, and sorry.

Still can't see why we don't like it?

I feel that idea of using "Central Europe" instead of "Eastern Europe" to be very similar in concept. People who use the denomination "Eastern Europe" aren't necessarily using it pejoratively, it's only the interpretation of Czechs and Poles which made it pejorative. That's how you invent a "despise" where there is none at the beginning.

No. Eastern Europe was clearly derogatory term in the West during the Cold war. Central Europe is a correct term which had been used before the Cold War started. It described culturally similar countries in the middle of Europe. Even during the WW1, Entente fought the Central Powers, although Germany belongs to Western Europe and much of Austria-Hungary to Eastern Europe according to the Cold War terminology.

We all have our burden. It's been 68 years that Germany invaded France, and Americans still laugh about it. At least, I don't see anyone making fun of the Czechs because they've been invaded by the USSR.

We make fun of it ourselves

Well, fine, you see it pejoratively because it recalls you the Soviet domination. I understand that. However, I fully reject your assumption that anyone calling that area Eastern Europe are necessarily despiseful in doing so.

I didn't say so, it's unfortunately so widespread that people there use it without thinking about it.

But when they do, what's the first thing which crosses their mind?

Eastern Europe -> commies, crime, poverty, cheap stuff, whores, civil wars, corruption, lawlessness.

Well thank you, but I don't like to be associated with these things, and majority of other Central Europeans feel the same.

 

[Marla_Singer]

Beligerence aside, I think people should be called what they call themselves. For example: the changing of Eskimo to Innuit.

Fine. Uruguayans call themselves "4-time World champions" in football, but sorry for them they've only won two world cups. I won't start considering gold medals at the Olympics to be world champions titles simply because Uruguay would find the contrary offensive.

But anyway, I have no problem to locate Prague in Central Europe. My point isn't to say that Eastern Europe fits better. My point is only that it's wrong to automatically assume the use of "Eastern Europe" to be offensive.

 

[Marla_Singer]

In Czech, we call it Peking

Anyway, it is not the same thing. You say "Prague" instead of "Praha" and we say "Paříž" instead of "Paris." These are names, they don't have any connotations.

Tell that to Indians who asked us to not say "Bombay" and "Madras" anymore but "Mumbai" and "Chennai" instead. I'm sorry but I didn't feel I was necessarily offensive in calling those cities in the old way.

Eastern Europe however is a term which was created and used for countries under the Communist rule. It was used in opposition to Western Europe (the good part of Europe, the land of free, brave, rich...) to describe the bad part of Europe, where people are unfree, poor, and sorry.

Bad is only your own moral judgement. It has never been attributed on the first place. And that's exactly what I denounce : to consider necessarily that others are despiseful when they are objectively not.

 

[Rossiya]

Eastern Europe however is a term which was created and used for countries under the Communist rule. It was used in opposition to Western Europe (the good part of Europe, the land of free, brave, rich...) to describe the bad part of Europe, where people are unfree, poor, and sorry.

Do you seriously believe that term that's bolded? When the great Henry VIII would look at a map of Europe, and look on the right-hand side of it, would he say, "Goodness, I would love to call that region "eastern Europe", but that term hasn't been invented yet because Communism hasn't arrived"?

The answer you're looking for, your honour, is no. "Eastern Europe" was definitely not a term created and used for countries under communist rule. "Eastern Europe" has been around for as long there has been a Europe.

 

[Mirc]

Well, guys, excuse me for feeling offended when somebody uses the term Eastern European to refer to me.

We are NOT Eastern Europeans. We are SOUTHERN Europeans. Yes, Bucharest is more south than Venice, the famous Italian city, and yes, the temperatures easily reach 40 C in the summer, and yes, it's 3 TIMES as much from the center of Romania to the northernmost point of Europe compared to the southernmost point of Europe.

Apart from that, it is a ROMANCE country from Latin Europe!

And no, we are NOT Slavic either, and there's nothing wrong with being Slavic, it's just that we aren't!!

now really seriously: for me there's
1.south east europe (bosnia, serbia, croatia, kosovo, albania),
2.central europe (austria, switzerland, southern germany, czech republic, slovakia, slovenia?, hungary? liechtenstein),
3.western europe (ireland, uk, france, netherlands, belgium, luxemburg, northern germany),
4.northern europe (iceland, norway, sweden, finland, denmark),
5. southern europe (portugal, spain, andorra, rome, vatican state, greece)
6. and eastern europe (poland, slovenia?, hungary?, romania, bulgaria, ukraine, belarus, lithuania, latvia, estonia)
7. and russia. (being part of europe, but it's own region.)
8. turkey is 3 things: european, middle eastern and central asian.

Lol, why not put Romania in the Balkans? When I go to Belgrade, I can't tell the difference in architecture, and way of living. When I go to Bulgaria, the same.

From what I've seen from Russia or Ukraine or Belarus, I can't find any connection at all, apart from religion, though even so, the churches look entirely different. I just don't understand this.

Do you seriously believe that term that's bolded? When the great Henry VIII would look at a map of Europe, and look on the right-hand side of it, would he say, "Goodness, I would love to call that region "eastern Europe", but that term hasn't been invented yet because Communism hasn't arrived"?

The answer you're looking for, your honour, is no. "Eastern Europe" was definitely not a term created and used for countries under communist rule. "Eastern Europe" has been around for as long there has been a Europe.

That is false. The term Eastern Europe indeed existed, but the modern and almost entirely mistaken definition of Eastern Europe appeared AFTER WW2.

 

[Rossiya]

That is false. The term Eastern Europe indeed existed, but the modern and almost entirely mistaken definition of Eastern Europe appeared AFTER WW2.

What I have said is not false. I was talking about the term "Eastern Europe" in a generic sense, which I thought was obvious.

 

[Ecofarm]

Fine. Uruguayans call themselves "4-time World champions" in football, but sorry for them they've only won two world cups. I won't start considering gold medals at the Olympics to be world champions titles simply because Uruguay would find the contrary offensive.

I didn't mean titles or claims to greatness. I just meant the name of the people and their region.

Nor did I mean that if I call myself The True God, that you are obligated to do so as well. Just normal name and region kind of stuff. You know... the right to name your own place and people kind of thing (as long as it has some foundation in reality - various "Republics" don't count either).

Let's not take a well accepted means of respect and turn it into some kind of tard fest.

 

[Winner]

Do you seriously believe that term that's bolded? When the great Henry VIII would look at a map of Europe, and look on the right-hand side of it, would he say, "Goodness, I would love to call that region "eastern Europe", but that term hasn't been invented yet because Communism hasn't arrived"?

The answer you're looking for, your honour, is no. "Eastern Europe" was definitely not a term created and used for countries under communist rule. "Eastern Europe" has been around for as long there has been a Europe.

See the opening post and Mirc's explanation.

 

[Winner]

Bad is only your own moral judgement. It has never been attributed on the first place. And that's exactly what I denounce : to consider necessarily that others are despiseful when they are objectively not.

Don't tell me that "Eastern Europe" has absolutely no negative connotations in "Western Europe". That's simply not true.

 

[Mirc]

oooh, just when anal raping was funniest...

and no, because it is not ridiculous. everything between central europe and russia ist eastern europe for me...

Athens, Ankara? The first one is clearly south, and the second isn't even in Europe.

 

[nonconformist]

Jesus christ, can't we just call you guys the π/2R Europeans?

 

[nonconformist]

Don't tell me that "Eastern Europ"e has absolutely no negative connotations in "Western Europe". That's simply not true.

The same way "T'North" has bad connotations down south, but like hell am I gonna stop referring to the frikking monkeys as northeners.

 

[Elta]

One notable exception: you cannot call black people what they call themselves in rap music.

Lets wrok on calling them Black instead of African American first