eldar08: Gridlocked!

[vmxa]

I have not looked at the save, which I will do tomorrow, but as a rule I am try to avoid MA's, unless I am weak. So I would be inclined to not add another, but I lack the knowledge to make the determination right now.

I also would be loathed to give up any new techs, unless they are going to be worthless soon or we just need to ease pressure.

Not real big on pillaging, but I would have to evaluate the situation. IOW it is usually a good idea, but I just like to make it tougher and take them on. If it was oil or rubber in a masive game, then I would.

Do we have settlers to fill in some of the holes or do we need to make them and ship them over?

Overseer, where do you stand on the order? Do you want to go now or should I go?

Cbob you mentioned Lib, are we not allowed to make them? I already forgot the variant, other than the grid thing, which thank goodness you made a dot map. Guess I will have to read the start yet again.

One of the dangers of variants is the rules can get complex, so players break them by mistake.

 

[choxorn]

The tile 2NW-1W from Nippur is part of Babylon right now,

lurker's comment:
Pardon me if I'm wrong, but I believe that location is:
A. Not on the grid
B. In the middle of the ocean.

 

[CommandoBob]

True, it is. I did not explain this very clearly. If this tile (2NW-1W of Nippur) was part of Babylon at this time (no cities in the ocean to hold back the cultural borders expanding), then the grid spot that was 2NE-1E of Nippur would also be part of Babylon once Nara of Japan was taken and razed.

 

[CommandoBob]

Do we have settlers to fill in some of the holes or do we need to make them and ship them over?

We have six settlers on the ground making their way to the Caravels/Galleons at Babylon Crossing, down in the southeast. Overseas we have two that I can think of (one between Kagoshima and Osaka Bang Bang, the other near Geisha-A-Go-Go), though I referred to three in my notes.

Cbob you mentioned Lib, are we not allowed to make them? I already forgot the variant, other than the grid thing, which thank goodness you made a dot map. Guess I will have to read the start yet again.

One of the dangers of variants is the rules can get complex, so players break them by mistake.

Two main rules for this variant.

1) All cities have to be on the grid
1a) Gaps in the grid due to terrain (mountain, ocean) are fine.
1b) Cities not on the grid, when captured, are razed.
1c) I don't think we are required to build on every grid spot that we can.

2) No culture allowed. We cannot avoid culture points from our Palace, but that is all the culture we can have. No Temples, Libraries, Small Wonders or Great Wonders, since all of them produce culture.

Victory is by Domination.

 

[CommandoBob]

I have not looked at the save, which I will do tomorrow, but as a rule I am try to avoid MA's, unless I am weak. So I would be inclined to not add another, but I lack the knowledge to make the determination right now.

I MAed with Japan to slow down Babylon's units. They had attacked us by coming through Japan. That MA was purely defensive. I don't expect much help from Japan in fighting Babylon, except to slow down their movement.

The MA with Greece is very different. Greece and Babylon don't share a large border, but an MA means that we don't have to worry about Babylon going through Greece to get to us in our landing area. Is that worth Magnetism? Hard to say.

However, we do have a choke point down by Sippar when the land is 1 Tile wide. We could garrison that point with some Muskets, Cannons and Cavs and just let Babylon units die there in droves.

 

[Optional]

Well, it's good to see this game going again!

I haven't looked at the save either yet, but with still three-and-a-half nation to fight, I would think an MA somewhere would speed things up. I would like that on the cheap, though.
Of the 4 nations of the other continent, Japan was by far the weakest, yet we didn't eliminate them in a full turnset, so there's still quite a lot to do. I expect Babylon, Greece and Zululand all still to be in a reasonably good shape.
But what do you think, CommandoBob; wouldn't Japan be simply off the map in a couple of turns? If that would happen, and we bash into Babylon a bit more, then we could get an MA with Babylon for nothing, and perhaps take on Greece?
But I really should look at the save.

 

[CommandoBob]

I wasn't too worried about a war with Babylon. However, they had Cavalry, which I did not expect. And an ROP with Japan.

And then they captured a stack of slaves and killed them. Ouch! We need that free labor overseas, since Steam Power is coming soon.

We could have managed without an MA with Japan, but it would have made our unit management a bit harder, since almost everywhere along the front could be attacked by Babylonian Cavalry. I didn't want that headache, given the gaps in our front lines. Thus the MA. Japan won't get that much smarter in 20 turns, and might even turn on us. They should be dead the turn after the MA expires.

If we can garrison the choke point that is southeast of our landing spot, I don't think we need an MA with Greece vs. Babylon. Peace, maybe, but MA, nyah.

I see us focused on Babylon for the next few turns, razing and replacing along the way, then turning to Zulu (since our forces will be up north) and then circling around to deal with Greece.

We have a long way to go to get a Domination win. With no culture expansion, we will need a lot of cities. We'll have to double in size and then some. Right now we are at 30.1%; we need 66/67% to win.

 

[vmxa]

Ugh, no HE, no Pentagon, no MA. IIRC you do not get culture from a captured wonder, so as long as it is on the grid, it could be held, right? Not saying that will actually happen, but just to clarify.

So I do not see any post from Overseer, so I will go ahead and post an I got it and see what happens.

 

[Optional]

IIRC you do not get culture from a captured wonder, so as long as it is on the grid, it could be held, right?

Yes, that's right. The rule is 'no culture', not 'no wonders'.

 

[vmxa]

What about this idea, use a leader and rush the Pentagon. Add a 4th unit and get rid of the Pentagon. You may have to abandon the town. This avoids the culture issue, but maybe not the spirit.

It is not clear as I am not sure if the deal is just no generating culture or what. It would seem that grabbing non culture generating wonders is about the same thing. Plenty of time to decide that as it is not something that would make much sense, until you had rails most places, so you could get the units to the armies and you had a fair number of armies.

Having 3 or 4 armies would not be enough to do it, but 8 or more would. It would even be something that could be done more than once. That is if you are getting lots of leaders.

Anyway it will be many turns down the road, if it is allowed and we even get the chance.

 

[Optional]

What about this idea, use a leader and rush the Pentagon. Add a 4th unit and get rid of the Pentagon. You may have to abandon the town. This avoids the culture issue, but maybe not the spirit.

I'll let Eldar address that one, as this is his brainchild, but it seems a bit weird to me.

It is not clear as I am not sure if the deal is just no generating culture or what. It would seem that grabbing non culture generating wonders is about the same thing.

I think 'no culture' is meant as 'no border expansion': the grid is restricting space, but border expansion through culture would alleviate the space problem, while the variant is meant to be strict. Wonders that don't generate culture would not affect the idea of the variant.

Yeah, if the AI gets riflemen, and we are restricted in our military, then this game could still be a bit of a slug, I guess. But perhaps still more of a game than if we had uber-armies.

 

[TheOverseer714]

Go ahead and take a turn vmxa, then I can do one.

Edit: I'm betting that we will not be able to win by Domination, we have more than half the map and only 30% covered. It may end up a Conquest.

 

[vmxa]

Ok here is the save. I played 9 as that ends on the normal 5/10 boundary.

 

[choxorn]

Yeah, if the AI gets riflemen, and we are restricted in our military, then this game could still be a bit of a slug, I guess. But perhaps still more of a game than if we had uber-armies.

lurker's comment: 3-unit armies tend to be enough to own any AI, 4-unit armies are just insane.

 

[vmxa]

PRE:
Zulu 56gpt expires in 1 turn.
Two towns are making an aqua and starving. I put 1 citizen back to work to not lose pop. Little point in losing a pop here.

I may be willing to deal with Alex, but we need to wait for the Zulu deal to end. Then we can see if they will give the same gold for Mag, if so then a deal with Greece is not so bad. I do hate to push them closer to the next age and a free tech though.

We are 100+ in unit support, so I am inclined to stop a few of the 50 turns builds and get some wealth instead or workers/settlers. If we cannot get gpt from Zulu it will force a big slow down in research.

We are not allowed to build off grid or have culture, we will have many spots where the AI could drop off a settler that we cannot bring into our borders. We will need to get rails up to allow us to rush blockers to those spots or go to war.

Not sure why we need more galleons? We already have our troops overseas and will not be shipping large numbers, so I stop those builds. It will not take much to run units to a coast via rails and take the short boat ride over.

Not going to make frigates in any great numbers as they are not real effective and we should be taking down towns, making it harder for them to send many over. They are seldom in the right spot anyway.

I see we are a republic, so where do we stand on WW? Have we been at it for a long time? Did we declare or them? Have we had many losses?

I see couple of colonies, when we have those luxs in our borders? I guess we did not at the time?

I may be missing something, but it looks like we are running the empire like an AW game and we are a Monarchy? I mean all these long cannon builds and places like Bordello Bluff making a barracks. We already have 12 rax in the core. It is a net 4 shield town, with all plains and desert. That means it will not make a lot of shields,
even with rails.

We will have to have peace to reduce WW, so why make 10-15 troops constantly? Anyway it would be a long time before we can rail this town. I would not have put up that court there either, just let it sit making beakers.

old guy's fantasy: no need for a harbor here. It can already feed itself. I switch to a settler.

carthage: no need for a harbor here either. It is a 1 shield city. It has a only a few coastal tiles and will be able to feed a size 12 with a rail or three. Switch to settler.

Angels Landing: sell harbor, not going to upgrade caravels and not going to build boats.

Babylon Crossing sell barracks.

I will stop a few of the settler builds that have no shields and need 30 turns and the town can be a city. We can always make up the lost time with a disband, if we need the settler. Nothing wrong with making these settlers, but I figure it can be delayed.

I cav disband will cover the shield we would have gotten and the cav can be made quickly in a decent city. In the mean time we can let the town grow and collect wealth.

I sent a cav to kill a musket in Miletos and it autorazes for zero gold.

Plain Jem Mansion put beaker back to work to cut 3 turns off market and let ti grow.

Rusicade Ranch put beaker back to work to speed aqua.

A few more pop put to taxmen and we now are at -20gpt, with 656 in the kitty.

One lone musket in Satsuma land, but it will likely be killed on the IBT, maybe we will get a good roll.

Moved the lone cav near a Bab musket to the nearest cav. Lone MA units will risk being killed, so I prefer to not put them at risk. Well that looks like about all I can see so off we go.

IBT:
About what I expected. Cav killed the cav and an MDI. You just cannot have cavs or MDI where they can be reached by cavs or LB's.

1060AD (1):
Cannot drop research. Now we have -89gpt as deal ends.
Struck this deal with Shaka for Mag:
Navigation
World Map
31gpt
IVORY

Make peace with Alex and then make this deal for Mag:
Alliance Vs Hammi
World Map
7 gold

Speak to Toku and make this deal for Mag:
110gold
World Map
27gpt

Now we need to try to keep them to where they can pay it for a little while longer.
To that end I decide to get Shaka in on the fun, so he will not be inclined to go after Japan. I give him Gems and a map. Yeah, I hate to give a map, but it will be know soon anyway. Ships are moving around, this does give them the knowledge of the holes that can be filled.

So Hammi is taking on the world now and it cost us basically one tech. We are now only running -27gpt.

2 cavs kill spears in Izibia for 6 gold and raze it. 1 slave (2-0).
2 cavs kill cavs near newly founded Portland, 1 was elite, (4-0).

5/5 sword dies on a 1hp musket (4-1).
5/5 sword kill it (5-1).
mdi kills 2hp musket (6-1).

frigate sinks galley and goes elite (7-1).

cav kills musket in Carchemish (8-1).
mdi kills one and autorazed Carchemish for 6 gold (9-1).

mdi kills musket nearby (10-1).
mdi kills 1hp cav in the area (11-1).

Smart move to not clear the marsh in the mainland that we cannot use. I will road some of the tiles, if I find the time that cannot be used, just to allow for better coverage and troop movements.

Japan has landed a settler on the coast past A Go GO, should have covered that spot.
-18gpt now.

I see no Babylon units in the open now. The cav that was going to cut the horses is no longer around as it was the one killed on the IT.

FOR THE NEW GUYS, no towns can be planted on the mainland within the scheme. You can save your time and not bother looking around.

IBT:
nothing

1070AD (2):
We start on steam at 90% in 10 turn at -26gpt. It should more or less stay the same as long as the deals last. We will have unit cost go up, but more towns will offset that.

Found Minneapolis. Use some troops to block Japan's settler from moving to a site to plant a town.

Found Pittsburg

Both armies kill muskets in Sippar and block any movement past it. It is on the grid, so we can hold it. Some chance of a flip to Greece, will need to check on that. (2-0). [13-1]

Renaming boats to include type as I do not know from the names which ones are caravels and I forget the movement each has, they have the same defense and attack.

Up research to 100%.

IBT:
alex wants alliance Vs Shaka.
Shaka wants alliance Vs Alex.
I give them a map for 2 gold instead.
LB attacked cav from Sippar. I had covered the army as it was down to 4HP. Cav retreated.

1080AD (3):
cav retreats from musket in Sippar.
Washington kills musket there.
3 man swords are not real good against muskets.(1-0)

While counting beakers, I see if I flip the last 15 taxmen to science we can shave off a turn, so I do it.

Cav kills musket in Sippar (2-0).
Two 5/5 cavs kill cavs in a town and raze it for 1 slave. Missed the name (4-0).

5/5 cav kills musket/settler (5-0).
Lame butt MDI's, lost 2 trying to take out a 1HP musket that was not fortified (5-2).
cav goes elite after doing the job (6-2). I did not want to use the cav as I was going to send it to cover the elite.

IBT:
LB retreats 2nd army. [18-3]

 

[vmxa]

lurker's comment: 3-unit armies tend to be enough to own any AI, 4-unit armies are just insane.

Not 3 man swords, they will not be killing many rifles in a town, they barely manage to kill muskets often as not.

3 man cav armies can manage rifles, but it is not a lock and will not fare well against infantry.

The kicker he is that those are armies with the MA and we will not have it, so our armies will be even weaker.

 

[vmxa]

1100AD (4):
We struggle a great deal and lost a cav, but one cav and 2 damaged armies take down Sippar. Killing 2 muskets, a spear and a longbow (4-1). [22-4]

1110AD (5):
Found Oakland

3/5 cav kills 1HP musket/settler (1-0).
3/5 cav kills 1HP LB (2-0). [24-4]

Sippar is in a dangerous spot with no culture and sitting next to Greece. I would think we will have to get them to attack us, but then we have the WW issue to deal with. Once we get Steam, I would suggest a serious evaluation of the situation.

We could look to use the lux slider to deal with WW and try to get into Alex. If he gets Nationalism for free, then we will need to have the grunt work tactics used on them (cannons). We need to get some leaders, that is why I used those 3/5 guys. It cost me moving out sooner and gained nothing.

I thought Japan had 3 cities here, but they only have two right now. I cannot see any spot that may have been theirs?

1120 (6):
Found Tampa Bay.

1130 (7):
Moved a few units to spots in the mainland to remove fog. Not sure if we have barbs on or not.

4/5 cav kills musket (1-0).
4/5 cav kills LB and grabs settler (2-0) [26-4].

IBT:
LB attacks the stack and dies (1-0) [27-4]

1140AD (8):
Japan lands a LB next to Osaka Bang Bang, no sure what they are up to right now.
Steam next turn, tried to get most of the workers gathered.

Cav kills 1 HP cav (1-0).
Stack next to Eulbar or some such place.

IBT:
musket lands at Unhook. [28-4]

1150 (9):
the LB moved on. I opened the door for the trapped Japanese settler combo to leave as they have no place to plant a town near us now.

We DO have COAL, 3.

Found Orlando.

Found Tacoma.

Cav killed lander at Unhook and I move the sword to block any landings there (1-0).
Armies finally healed as one was 1HP and the other 3. Moving to get in position to maybe take on Japan next.

They are giving us some gold, but there are in our land and this will be a good chance to goad them into a fight or just DOW soon.

MDI kills 1HP musket in Eulbar (2-0).
5/5 cav kill one and razed it for 4 slaves (3-0).

Not a single leader.
[31-4]

It is only 9 turns, if I got the count correct, but it is on normal stopping number.

Not sure how you want to proceed. I would like to see us take out Japan and remove them from the homeland.

Then maybe make peace with Babylon for whatever we can get.

Take a breather to remove some WW and start on Alex. He does not have MT last I looked and we do not want to see him get Nationalism or at least not till he is much smaller.

I selected Electricity to get to RP and to get water everywhere for farming. I set research to 100 for now.

 

[Bratmon]

lurker's comment: I thought the AI automatically knew where everything is, so a sale of a map is no loss.

Also, I only have vanilla.

 

[eldar]

Unfortunately using a GL to rush the Pentagon means getting the 2(?) culture from the Pentagon for 1 turn after it's been finished.

So no Pentagon.

It's the No-Culture bit that makes this variant harder than normal Emperor mainly because of the loss of the FP. Having no Libs isn't too bad as zero-research/farms work okay.

The grid style of city placement actually makes city placement choice very easy. Except the order in which sites got settled early on.

 

[choxorn]

lurker's comment: I thought the AI automatically knew where everything is, so a sale of a map is no loss.

lurker's comment: Well, they at least pretend not to know.