Embaixada da Kazakhstan

Renata · Jan 19, 2009

Bah, I hate the forums going down. Meant to post this six hours ago.

Gah. I guess we're agreeing to the first part? It's in my draft, and no one's spoken up to say "god, no, what are you crazy?", anyway. I really haven't the foggiest clue how to manage arranging everything in numbered paragraphs and all the niceties, so any help with that would be welcome. Otherwise, I'll be back online for a little while tomorrow morning my time to take a crack at it before I have to click end turn.

Here's the basic agreement, as I understand it (no need for critique of the language unless you have suggestions for how best to put it; this is just meant to summarize the ideas):

Open Borders
-- effective immediately on our side
-- effective on their side at their discretion, but not later than turn 50. We agree not to enter their territory with any unit, by any means, prior to obtaining written permission.

Non-aggression pact
-- effective immediately, to last until 1 AD (turn 115)
-- up for renewal at turn 95
-- some sort of language that our intention is for extended cooperation, yadda yadda

Research and Technology Trading
-- immediate beeline of alphabet for kazakhstan and monarchy for us, with the only exceptions being for techs required to deal with emergencies or meet urgent local needs. Local needs do not include obtaining a religion or increasing trade route yield. [ meant to refer to polytheism and sailing -- can we get them to agree to this? ]
-- research carried out at best possible speed, with no stockpiling of cash beyond that reasonably needed to deal with adverse events
-- upon completion of both beelines, immediate trade of related techs (writing, ah, hunting, alphabet/priesthood, med, myst)
-- understanding that tech trading will continue beyond that time, but will need to be negotiated on an item-by-item basis
-- understanding that cooperative spirit is more important in such an alliance than strict adherence to minute advantage

Exploration
-- both teams will attempt to find a third team to include in our alliance

Resources
-- [provolution mentioned this as a possibility, but i'm not sure how to work it in. suggestions? maybe just that the agreement includes the possibility of future negotiations on this subject?]

Religion
-- team kazakhstan gets priority to research CoL ahead of us

And should I still send some version of the above draft ahead of time, stating that the formal proposal will follow?

RRRaskolnikov · Jan 20, 2009

Apparently I am not the only one enjoying triple post when the forum is down...

You seem to have covered pretty much everything :goodjob:

Renata · Jan 20, 2009

Maybe also Oracle: to be negotiated separately -- they mentioned it, but there's no way to put anything in writing yet.

Renata · Jan 20, 2009

Since I expect people will be watching this thread: check out the post-turn update to the played turns thread. Had a bit of good luck. And no, I'm not referring to barbs.

Renata · Jan 20, 2009

Sombra is the holy city. It just spread to Ohlo on the very first opportunity. Will be nice for getting to size 6 shortly, though we do need quite a bit of food first.

Niklas · Jan 20, 2009

I wrote up a draft for the formal treaty based on Renata's list:

The CavKaz Treaty

§1. Peace and Non-Aggression

* The peoples of Cavaleiros and Kazakhstan agree to take no hostile action of any kind towards the other people.
* This state of peace and non-aggression will last indefinitely, and can only be cancelled by written notice 20 turns in advance.
* Such notice to cancel the state of assured peace can not be given before the year 1 AD (turn 115).

§2. Open Borders
* The peoples of Cavaleiros and Kazakhstan agree to open borders with each other, to allow the free passage of units and merchants alike.
* This state of Open Borders will be effective immediately, on both sides, from the signature of this treaty.
* Upon the completion of Writing by either people, this will be handled via a formal Open Borders agreement. Until that time, it will be handled through a phony state of war.

§3. Mutual Technological Advancement
* The peoples of Cavaleiros and Kazakhstan agree to cooperate on the advancement of knowledge to get to Alphabet and Monarchy as soon as possible.
* Both peoples agree to adhere to the attached advancement plan as close as possible.
* Both peoples agree to carry out research at the highest sustainable speed, with no stockpiling of gold beyond that reasonably needed to deal with adverse events.
* Exceptions to the advancement plan may be given in a state of emergency, or in the case of an urgent domestic need.
* If either people wishes to invoke such an exception, it must notify the other people of its intent and reasons for the deviation.
* Upon completion of the respective beelines, the related technologies will be immediately traded to the other people.
* Both peoples agree that mutual technological advancement will continue beyond the completion of the immediate goals, but that plans for the future are to be negotiated at later points, as addendums to this treaty.
* Both peoples agree that a cooperative spirit is more important in such an alliance than strict adherence to minute advantage to the own team.

§4. Resources
* The peoples of Cavaleiros and Kazakhstan agree that in the case that either team has a spare resource to trade, they will first try to negotiate a trade with the other people of this treaty. Only if no such deal is possible will the people consider trading that resource to a third people.

§5. Religion and Oracle
* The people of the Cavaleiros recognize the wishes and needs of the people of Kazakhstan for a religion, and will agree to let Kazakhstan have priority for researching any technology that leads to a religion, after the completion of the inital advancement plan.
* Both peoples recognize that if either team builds the Oracle, to be negotiated at a later point, then the free technology received will be shared with the other people, against a reasonable compensation for the investment of hammers (presumably a smaller research load during that period).

§6. Extension
* Both peoples agree that the intent is to find and include a third civilized people with which to share technological advancement, and agree to work actively towards finding such a people.
* The exact terms of the cooperation with this third people will be negotiated when relevant, and the contents of this documents are not to be seen as binding in any way towards this third people.

I left out anything about resources since I didn't know what to write. Any suggestions for improvements?

oyzar · Jan 20, 2009

* If either side have spare resources they must first find out if it is possible to negotiate a deal with the other side, only if no such a deal is possible may either trade away resources to other parties.

Obviously this goes both if the other team neither have any spare resources to offer or no spare resources of interest to offer(though if people know how to manage health / happy cap there should be very few circumstances where extra resources are not needed...

Renata · Jan 20, 2009

Still stuck on the workboat thing, as they specifically mentioned turn 50. I'd hate for them to hold up the tech agreement just so that part is moot.

Niklas · Jan 20, 2009

I believe the mention of turn 50 was only as an estimate on when the agreement may be concluded, what he said was "you may well pass our waters by turn 50". Obviously we hope for that to be earlier. So I hesitate to include any such thing.

I've updated the draft with (a slight rewrite of) oyzar's suggestion. I'll see if I can extend the introductory text Renata provided so we make our thoughts clear regarding Polytheism in particular.

Renata · Jan 20, 2009

Ok, that makes sense.

oyzar · Jan 20, 2009

Mars started talking to me and i couldn't help but respond:

Spoiler :

Niklas · Jan 20, 2009

Here's my proposed reply, including a full treaty proposal:

To our esteemed neighbors Team Kazakhstan, greetings.

We are grateful that the early misunderstandings between our peoples are giving way to a deeper sense of purpose. We are perhaps a less formal society than your own, and we obviously have our share of impetuous young people who neglect to consider the import of their words before they speak. Nevertheless we do not want to give the wrong impression of ourselves. Respect and cooperation are our bywords, as they are yours. To that end, we wish to first clear up a few things that appear to have been sticking points between us, in the hopes that we may better assure you of the purity of our intentions.

First, our emissaries left the fair shores of our capital of Ohlo Serpentem precisely in Turn 30. Young Oyzar's first "30ish" statement was a qualified guess on his part as he did not fully remember, and when he went back and saw his guess was correct he did not bother to mention it. It was never our intention to keep you in the dark regarding this matter.

Second, we will naturally not enter your territorial waters without your express permission. That would indeed be a violation of the spirit of cooperation we hope to foster between our two peoples. Again, young Oyzar seems to have focused on the wrong things. He worried too much about how you would react to a phony war, that he didn't even think to bring up the question of passage first. But it was never his, or our people's, intention that our explorers sail on without express permission.

Nevertheless, we do fervently wish that the people of Kazakhstan can see the advantage to both of us of allowing us to continue on our way, and can understand the hardship it would entail to the Cavaleiros for us to turn back now. It has been a long and arduous journey to this point, and not least of the desires of our emissaries would be to rest a moment in friendly waters and see some friendly faces once more before continuing on.

We hope that we have thusly clarified the peaceful and hopeful aspirations of Team Cavaleiros. We have never wished anything other than cooperation between our peoples, to the mutual benefit of both societies. Indeed, it has been the dream of our civilization from its very inception to discover that we are not alone in this vast and unfriendly world, and that we may find true partners with whom to journey through time together. It is our fervent hope that Kazakhstan and Cavaleiros may be such partners, and we greatly regret, and apologize for, any and all miscommunications based on cultural and language barriers.

We also wish to express our gratitude with your highly competent emissary, Provolution. His hard work to explain and accomodate for our differences has gone a long way towards making this go as smoothly as it actually has, despite early misgivings. He has also gone out of his way to ensure that our treaty accomodates for any flexibility your people may want, by discussing alternative paths that you may or may not choose to take, just to see what options are available. We do not know what, if any, of these paths are actually being actively considered by your people, nevertheless for our mutual benefit we feel we want and need to give our view.

The reason we are pushing for a beeline for Alphabet and Monarchy is that we are working against time. We have a direct need for several techs from you, for the defense of our homeland. It is not long until the less civilized people of this world figure out how to make axes {turn 65-70 or so}, and if we cannot be sure that we receive these techs in time via trade from you then we will be forced to research them ourselves. That doesn't mean just a one-tech deviation from the outlined tech proposal, but a quite severe delay of any mutual advancement and a loss of several hundred beakers on both sides. We hope you appreciate what a great loss of an opportunity this is for our two teams to soar ahead of our peers, and so we really really hope that you will accept to make your way for Alphabet with haste, for both our sakes.

We have deliberately worded the treaty in such a way that it makes room for strong local needs. In particular we fully understand if you would not want to wait to receive Mysticism from us to expand your borders, as it is quite cheap and comes with a distinct strategic and domestic advantage. But we sincerely hope we can make you see the merits for both of us of sticking to a straight Alphabet/Monarchy beeline.

We also realize your people may be longing for a religion, but we hope you can see that Polytheism is not the best way to get there. It holds next to no intrinsic value other than the religion, and in the early game it provides no benefits that cannot be gotten cheaper through an early Hereditary Rule. We will be more than happy to help you found a religion at a later point, and we have tried to formulate the treaty to take this into account, should you so wish.

Hopefully we will have addressed all points you hoped we would, and that you find our proposed treaty worthy of acception. We look forward to hearing back from you.

Sincerely,
Niklas dos Cavaleiros

Proposal: The CavKaz Treaty

§1. Peace and Non-Aggression

* The peoples of Cavaleiros and Kazakhstan agree to take no hostile action of any kind towards the other people.
* This state of peace and non-aggression will last indefinitely, and can only be cancelled by written notice 20 turns in advance.
* Such notice to cancel the state of assured peace can not be given before the year 1 AD (turn 115).

§2. Open Borders
* The peoples of Cavaleiros and Kazakhstan agree to open borders with each other, to allow the free passage of units and merchants alike.
* This state of Open Borders will be effective immediately, on both sides, from the signature of this treaty.
* Upon the completion of Writing by either people, this will be handled via a formal Open Borders agreement. Until that time, it will be handled through a phony state of war.

§3. Mutual Technological Advancement
* The peoples of Cavaleiros and Kazakhstan agree to cooperate on the advancement of knowledge to get to Alphabet and Monarchy as soon as possible.
* Both peoples agree to adhere to the attached advancement plan as close as possible.
* Both peoples agree to carry out research at the highest sustainable speed, with no stockpiling of gold beyond that reasonably needed to deal with adverse events.
* Exceptions to the advancement plan may be given in a state of emergency, or in the case of an urgent domestic need.
* If either people wishes to invoke such an exception, it must notify the other people of its intent and reasons for the deviation.
* Upon completion of the respective beelines, the related technologies will be immediately traded to the other people.
* Both peoples agree that mutual technological advancement will continue beyond the completion of the immediate goals, but that plans for the future are to be negotiated at later points, as addendums to this treaty.
* Both peoples agree that a cooperative spirit is more important in such an alliance than strict adherence to minute advantage to the own team.

§4. Resources
* The peoples of Cavaleiros and Kazakhstan agree that in the case that either team has a spare resource to trade, they will first try to negotiate a trade with the other people of this treaty. Only if no such deal is possible will the people consider trading that resource to a third people.

§5. Religion and Oracle
* The people of the Cavaleiros recognize the wishes and needs of the people of Kazakhstan for a religion, and will agree to let Kazakhstan have priority for researching any technology that leads to a religion, after the completion of the inital advancement plan.
* Both peoples recognize that if either team builds the Oracle, to be negotiated at a later point, then the free technology received will be shared with the other people, against a reasonable compensation for the investment of hammers (presumably a smaller research load during that period).

§6. Extension
* Both peoples agree that the intent is to find and include a third civilized people with which to share technological advancement, and agree to work actively towards finding such a people.
* The exact terms of the cooperation with this third people will be negotiated when relevant, and the contents of this documents are not to be seen as binding in any way towards this third people.

Renata · Jan 20, 2009

Both peoples agree to carry out research at the highest sustainable speed, with no stockpiling of gold beyond that reasonably needed to deal with adverse events.

This should probably be clarified to apply to the current beeline plan only, and that it should be renegotiated with each additional tech agreement.

The comments about the timing of barb axes strongly imply that we have no copper. Are we comfortable with that? I'd just as soon not admit that if there's any way to make our case without it.

oyzar · Jan 20, 2009

Need some additions that if they deviate for whatever reason(iw/sailing/poly) we would have to research hunting/ah/archery ourselves most likely which is quite a lot of beakers and time lost...

After talking with provolution(see logs above) it seems hard to convince them that there is very good reason to not deviate from straight beeline unless we tell tham that we don't have copper...

Earthling · Jan 20, 2009

I'd be ok with telling them that too... they would find out eventually (and we're far enough apart that it won't matter this early on). However, it doesn't seem like we can convince them to not get myst, so we shouldn't try to come off as too demanding. As long as they don't deviate too far, it's also true that the ones they are mostly hurting are themselves (if we get monarchy first, our cities can start growing more, and if they are a few turns to alphabet it is their loss).

Worst comes to worst, if we wanted to I see no reason not to stockpile some gold (if there is no other tech we want before the trade) and slow down monarchy a little. I don't see how they can really find out (we have no multipliers in place on gold or commerce). As far as I'm concerned, dealing with "adverse events" as per the treaty is up to at least the range of 100+ gold - no one got any gold from huts in this game so we could argue that this is already in consideration. But what I'm really hoping for is that we can meet some third team, not have to slow down monarchy at all, and get a good tech path; that remains to be seen.

Niklas · Jan 20, 2009

We will likely have to tell them that, yes. And hopefully we will have Feudalism before they could have a single axe at our borders, so it really is not a big deal in my opinion.

They are hurting us too if they deviate though, since everything I said about having to deviate to research Archery and AH ourselves is absolutely true. So we wouldn't be able to get fast to Monarchy either.

Renata · Jan 20, 2009

Ok, given the logic in the last few posts, I'm ok with leaving that in.

oyzar · Jan 15, 2009

We know kazakstan is not heading down the religious path so it seems like it could be advantagous for us to at the very least propose they go for alpha and we go for monarchy. This can of course be expanded into a tech alliance in the future... They are one of the stronger teams around given the way they started. If we ally them we will probably avoid the redcoats as well(since it'll be nowhere near the time to break any alliance by the time redcoats get obsolete i bet). Also if we do ally them we should obviously inform them our intentions to get a tripple alliance going... They might want a nap instead of an alliance though, what are we going to do if so? Also what can i tell them of information at this stage? If we want to trade techs i should probably tell them roughly what techs we have... I am probably usually more liberal with information than the rest of you, can i for example tell them the location of our capital(probably pretty far from them).

Methos · Jan 20, 2009

I'm in agreement with the above.

Niklas · Jan 20, 2009

Sent to Team Kazakhstan with the title Respect:

Spoiler :

Embaixada da Kazakhstan

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