Emperor Cookbook II: Mehmed II

[Soirana]

Bleys: i probably missed something. You really have archery? I only noticet it in Raskolnikov save, which makes him solid.
20 turns? IIRC (sorry if i am mistaking saves, admin changed a password and from my account i can't play civ and i am lazy to hack it today) you already have roaming archer on mainland. What if next guy is an axe?

Edit: Since i can't look at the saves now, I will probably not vote. There is not much diffrence between and i will eagerly continue from either of them.

 

[Kraftster]

Obviously, a lot of my frustration is related to my save. It has no votes, while saves with the 1S of copper are near the top, and thats basically the ONLY difference. How is "Copper city in the better spot" not a "Plus"?

FWIW you were fourth on my list. I think Abegweit is the best Great Lighthouse, blocking city, copper city game (the majority of games). I actually like the ivory city being out as a different approach, so, I went with RRR at two, and, CC has the clear military edge, so, I went with him for three. So, that puts you as my second pick out of the large group of similar games.

 

[Kraftster]

Bleys: i probably missed something. You really have archery? I only noticet it in Raskolnikov save, which makes him solid.
20 turns? IIRC (sorry if i am mistaking saves, admin changed a password and from my account i can't play civ and i am lazy to hack it today) you already have roaming archer on mainland. What if next guy is an axe?

Yeah, I only noticed Raskolnikov and myself having archers out.

 

[RRRaskolnikov]

@Bleys,

Yeah the marble has to be settled for fast NE and HE... I just don't think we will have the hammers for the GLib as they are hostile neighbours (I saw your post Soirana, Toku might indeed get a chance to live if he is not too dumb), and a lot of good sites are next door to settle (leveraging the GL)...
And don't be frustated with the votes... i have just looked at the reports for now (will look at the saves late tonight), and saves seem quite similar (thus it's hard to make votes)... Yours looks definitaly good! particularly with good exploration (several islands discovered -> good with GL)

Cheers,
Raskolnikov

edit @Monsterzuma: looking forward to take a look at your save... when this is over, I might do a no GLighthouse shadow for fun (if I can find time)...

 

[Bleys]

I have Hunting, Archery is like a 4-turn research. All of us have at LEAST hunting. Right now, Barbs arent a problem at ALL. I can almost get Archery and whip an Archer before any Barb unit gets to one of my cities.

And the problem with the 3rd City Ivory has already been mentioned. If the barbs settle the Copper before us (and they settle cities FAST in 3.17, I have noticed), we have to pray for Iron or send another settler out to claim it. Thats a risky delay, IMHO. As I said, that Ivory isnt going anywhere. Settle ON the Plains Ivory in the north for an instant +1 happy in all cities, or settle the Pig-Ivory inbetween Edrine and Istanbul for 2 first-ring resources.

 

[pigswill]

@Bleys: Its not a matter of "everyone thinks my game is crap" if you don't get votes; its much more of a close call than that. There are a lot of games where the differences are pretty marginal. Maybe some people put a higher priority on military units than exploration. However the system says you can only vote for three games and so people have to make (subjective) choices.

 

[Bleys]

RRR, personally, I think the GL must be built, and to be honest, I am considering building it in the Gold city, and turning that city into our GP farm. Corn, Clams, 3 Lake tiles, plus the lake allows us to put more farms on tiles touching it if we wish. GL and NE in Eridine = massive Scientists, and the earlier we get it done, the better, IMHO. I play a lot of maps exactly like this, none of this is outside the realm of "probably". No AI is going to attack us with Galleys if we are reasonable about diplomacy, so the only access to us is that city blocking Toku. Walls in there, and a bunch of Garrison units (which we will want anyway, as our GP farm, for HR happiness) and its a done-deal. I predict this game will be a blowout by Round 4 (from any save, really, that gets the GLH).

 

[Bleys]

@Bleys: Its not a matter of "everyone thinks my game is crap" if you don't get votes; its much more of a close call than that. There are a lot of games where the differences are pretty marginal. Maybe some people put a higher priority on military units than exploration. However the system says you can only vote for three games and so people have to make (subjective) choices.

I understand that. I know my save is perfefctly solid and playable. But it would seem to me that, all other things being VERY close, that is something that could tip folks one way or the other.

Look, its no big deal, I just dont think some people put much thought into it when voting. Trying to get the debate opened on the subject of that city, not because its winning or losing, but because its about the ONLY relevant difference in a lot of the saves.

 

[RRRaskolnikov]

Sound plan Bleys,

That's just me, but I would prefer have Toku's cities than a wonder... of course both is better and your plan makes that possible...

The no GLighthouse game would be only for fun and comparison... I agree that this wonder is broken in such maps...

 

[Kraftster]

Bleys,

I think the bottom line is the round is maybe too short to create much separation. I understand your point when you say how quickly x, y, z can be done in your save, but, the problem with that is if x, y, z is to catch up with someone else, then that someone else can do a, b, c just as quickly and be ahead by a, b, c.

All that being said, I think I'll be using your plans in round 2!

 

[pigswill]

@Bleys: I agree about Glib in corngold city. The difference between copper city and marble city is that copper city solves an immediate problem (units for barb bashing) and creates a longer term problem (getting marble available in time for literature). I'm (fairly) confident that I could get marble in time from my game by building/whipping a library though I have to admit I haven't done the calcs.

 

[Gliese 581]

Bleys: For what it's worth, your outline is very close to what I've achieved in my 400 AD game. Starting with marble first city as my 3rd, and I think the game is already a blowout.

 

[Bleys]

See, here is how I look at this process. I decide what features, out of ALL the games, I like by this time. None can accomplish all of them.

I then take those features, and put them in order. In this case, its:

3 Cities
at least 2 Workers
at least 3 Warriors (a garrison for each city)
Access to the Gold, from the "preferred" spot.
Access to the Copper/Marble (from the "preferred" spot)
The techs for the GLH
At LEAST a Lighthouse, if not a partial build on the GLH (1000 BC is a good barometer for this wonder on this kind of map at this level)

So, I prefer the Marble spot. I prefer the Corn-first spot for the Gold city.

Now we add them up. Granted, its VERY VERY VERY close, and there are saves better than mine with the Copper in the wrong spot (cant remember whose, one has already popped the border for the Gold, mine wont for another few turns) but to be honest, I dont understand the votes for saves without a city near the copper yet. With the "general area" of the first 3 cities is decided to be "best", then the cities without a city near the copper should probably not recieve votes unless they are REALLY magical. At this level, the order you do things is just as important as anything, Ivory = no urgency, but soon, copper = must-have.

That being said, the 1S of copper spot can get more culture once it pops borders (the whip will build a Library). So while the matter of where that city is can be debated, I dont think "no city near the copper" is worth a vote, IMHO.

 

[Abegweit]

Bleys, let's be honest here. Your game was indeed close to the top ones. However, the reason why it got no votes despite this is simply because the other games all had things to commend themselves. RRR has gold and ivory. A couple of players have archery. Some have copper.

Take your game and mine. Since we are among the few who have neither archery nor copper, they can be compared quite well. They really are quite similar and the differences only show up when you examine them closely.

I made a conscious decision to skip archery. Consequently I have Pottery and could have my first granary if I chose. You have hunting instead (no, not everyone has it). As I skipped archery, I settled by the copper, not the marble. The objective of the city, after all, is to get copper. The decision to settle the marble would look better if you had archery and therefore the copper would be less critical. I will have copper in about 7 turns and my military worries will be over. You are a long way from it and your military worries are severe.

In other areas, I am further ahead towards the GLH. I have two more warriors while you have a workboat that you won't need for many turns. I am building a worker in the capital. You are building a settler. The settler is premature to start with and in any case, it should be whipped when the city gets to size six. And yes, the empty city is very worrisome.

I'm not saying that mine is the best save, simply that it is clearly the better of the two. As I recall, the same comparison with Soirana's game will lead to the same conclusion (no access to the game ATM). So that makes you third among three similar games. Then there's the others. Pigswill and Carl are impregnable. RRR has those happies.

You just had too much competition from games which are slightly better than yours. That's all. If the round had lasted longer, the differences would, I think, have become more apparent.

 

[Bleys]

Not arguing those points. Indeed, you are 60 hammers farther. I have 3 Workers and 2 Warriors, and I also made a conscious effort to skip Archery, although I did tech Hunting for the Ivory. My settler will be whipped into the GLH, and he will settle the Pigs and Ivory. 2 warriors should never make-or-break a save IMHO.

I just think that folks voted without considering the implications of the site of the Copper city. I think having any city down there is a definite plus. Gold and Ivory are already ours. Heck, had RRR settled 1S of the Copper instead of the northern ivory, his would be the best by far.

Its not that I feel my save is "best", I dont. I do feel that votes for saves without that city are not a good plan, though, for the reasons Carl mentioned, if the Barbs drop a city there, it will be difficult to capture, then we can pretty much forget about the GL.

I will argue this point:

The decision to settle the marble would look better if you had archery and therefore the copper would be less critical. I will have copper in about 7 turns and my military worries will be over. You are a long way from it and your military worries are severe.

I took Hunting because I know the Copper is delayed. I am 6 turns from Archery, then my military problems are solved too, eh?

 

[Gliese 581]

The problem here is probably that you made round 1 too short. I've seen this frequently in this kind of games. It's better to have a long first round (in number of turns) and then have fewer and fewer turns for each consecutive round. Having a short first round like this means you're bound to get only small differences between saves and players feel that they are in an equally good position even if they're not counted among the top three in votes. A slightly longer round 1 would help in this regard I think as the differentiation would be greater.

 

[RJM]

I just think that folks voted without considering the implications of the site of the Copper city.

I think you are quite correct. The implications of the site of the copper city played no part in my voting decision. You may also be right that having the correct location for the copper city is more important than the other considerations that have been mentioned. You have certainly argued this very strongly. However, at the moment and based on my experience, I am not yet convinced. Perhaps, whichever save is chosen, you could also play your save till the next review point and show us that we were wrong.

Incidentally, I am not saying that your turnset is bad - its certainly a lot better than mine.

RJM

 

[Bleys]

The problem here is probably that you made round 1 too short. I've seen this frequently in this kind of games. It's better to have a long first round (in number of turns) and then have fewer and fewer turns for each consecutive round. Having a short first round like this means you're bound to get only small differences between saves and players feel that they are in an equally good position even if they're not counted among the top three in votes. A slightly longer round 1 would help in this regard I think as the differentiation would be greater.

We discovered that in the Monarchist Cookbook right away. There is a lot of dialogue in the Bismark and Bullpen threads about it. I agree. I feel its better to set up rounds as "how long to PLAY". A 20 turn round in the 1700 takes a LOT longer than playing 4000 BC to 1 AD.

I would rather the first round to to 500 BC. That should be enough time for players to have a more determined path of progress (chasing wonders, REX, or Axe Rush).

I think you are quite correct. The implications of the site of the copper city played no part in my voting decision. You may also be right that having the correct location for the copper city is more important than the other considerations that have been mentioned. You have certainly argued this very strongly. However, at the moment and based on my experience, I am not yet convinced. Perhaps, whichever save is chosen, you could also play your save till the next review point and show us that we were wrong.

Incidentally, I am not saying that your turnset is bad - its certainly a lot better than mine.

RJM

I know no one is saying my set is bad, and in fact, I am 100% positive it was "Top 5" for most. No worries there, I have no egomania about my abilities in this game. I will say that I have played dozens of GLH-based games, choosing every single leader, and JUST played through the GLH + GL (my favorite Wonder Combo, GLH for cash, GL for Lib race and Academies).

I guess my point is this. If you think the 3rd city belongs on the Copper site for the reasons mentioned, then you should have voted for 3 saves that have that city. Copper or Ivory is the key choice here, not "Marble or Copper".

Given that as as one of the more important features, then all the saves with a city near the Copper should be in your top 5, as long as they have no glaring weakness (like no Masonry, no Sailing). Yet many voted for saves with the Copper City, and with the Ivory city.

I guess I am suggesting some of the votes are inconsistent, thats all. Some people didnt even mine the Hill on the river by Istanbul first, it gets a Commerce in addition to the 1F3H, but they hill not on the river, 1N of Istanbul was Mined. A minor thing, really, but if we are picking such minor nits as "2 less Warriors", isnt "mined the right hill in the Cap" just as reasonable?

/shrug, maybe I judge saves differently from some of you. I have been playing this format a LONG time, being a charter member of the original MC Club. We had these kinds of discussions back then.

 

[Winston Hughes]

I dont understand the votes for saves without a city near the copper yet. With the "general area" of the first 3 cities is decided to be "best", then the cities without a city near the copper should probably not recieve votes unless they are REALLY magical.

Personally, I have no real problem with leaving the copper 'til later. We won't see a barb city spawn there if it's fogbusted properly, and archers will do fine for defence in the meantime.

As for the marble/non-marble debate, it's not something that played a major role in my decision. I don't see any great need to chase the Great Library (or anything else that needs marble). The GLh is powerful enough on it's own, and from there it's all about the REX (with cheap Lighthouses, Granaries and Courthouses - awesome).

That said, your save was well played (much better than mine, I think) and a definite contender. But, after spending a long while examining and weighing up the options, it didn't quite make the cut.

 

[Bleys]

Hmm, I am beginning to see why I am frustrated. I think I put a MUCH higher value on Marble than almost every player in this thread. Aesthetics is an awesome trading tech, and opening the GL, HE, and NE is super-strong if you have Marble to get them up FAST. GLH powers the REX, and, at least in my strategy, GL powers the Lib Race if its gettable, and it certainly is here. Took me all of 1 second when I spotted that site to decide to settle it where I did, and basically I said to myself "Game Over". The Marble tile itself is VERY workable, but the 1S of copper saves cant work it, and instead, will have much weaker city there later, since there are far less workable tiles 1S. I know its a junk city, but if your going to make a junk city, dont you want the most junk? What site are people planning for that Fur peninsula to the West?