Emperor: Win Every Game with Horsemen

[SS-18 ICBM]

Nvm, please delete.

 

[bluedevil99]

This is not *quite* the win every game strategy it's made out to be. I've had island starts on conts maps before (rare), and starts where I'm bottlenecked- I actually had a game last night where Siam had its capital behind a mountain pass AND had popped an early crossbowman from a hut. Ouch.

Put me down in favor of a city attack penalty as well giving an additional penalty for mounted units attacking into rough terrain, on top of the bonus/penalty for the defender. That hilltop archer for example should stand a much better chance against a mounted unit charging uphill. This might also somewhat make up for one of the biggest AI liabilities: leaving ranged/siege units way too exposed.

And btw yes they really need to fix the AI spamming wonders. I started next to Wu as Ghandi last night- she built the GL and Oracle ridiculously early. I had a crap start, no horses or iron, my capital was mediocre, and I easily took her capital with elephants. This was on Emperor- I was actually planning a laid back game but saw what she was doing and went, well, WTH.

 

[JudgeDeath]

I got that achievement on my 2nd or 3rd game... If you're CC rushing, it should be one of the easiest achievements.

Got it in my first. It's surely plain as that large proboscis on your face that Alex is teh man at anything except the highest difficulties, and that you absolutely have to use rush tactics.

Of course that shows the need for some game balancing.

 

[Louis XXIV]

I'm pretty sure any half-decent player would be able to lay out spears to kill horse mobility. I think you only need 4 at most to prevent horses from attacking from outside city bombard radius. Usually less than that, since "natural" barriers are pretty common.

Would the optimal fix (considering both effect and use of programming resources) be to weaken horsemen, have the AI build more units around cities, or rework the AI? Obviously, the third option is what many would prefer to see, but, for practical purposes, I wonder if a desired effect could be achieved with the second option (if not, the first would be the preferred in the short term, one should think). Could having more units in the area cause the AI to limit horse mobility (even accidentally) or would the player's superior ability simply outweigh this completely.

BTW, do the AI build horses? Thinking back in all my games, I don't remember any. I had a modern game and the AI used Gunships and they literally caught me by surprise. I went from using my tactics to easily hold the enemy at bay to nearly losing my core home cities before I could adjust. I wonder if the AI were better and moving around flanks, human bombard tactics would be weakened.

It's pretty interesting to think of 100+ horsemen charging into a city wall. Yeah, they should probably have a city attack penalty...

How about this for a compromise? Against a city, no penalty. Against a city with walls -50% attack (in addition to any defensive bonuses cities normally get). The only one exempt is Mandekalu Cav (of course). This would be a compromise of realism (unwalled cities can fall to cavalry). But, if you reduce the city to close to minimal health, a horse unit can win (a compromise of balance, while still slowing down all horses to minimal speed).

 

[Dizzy75]

Regarding increased AI unit spawning, I'm not sure that would be a good idea, since the AI can't seem to balance benefit vs. cost very well, and units take up a lot of both production and maintenance.

I would think that just a flat penalty against cities would be appropriate, both for "realism" reasons and to increase the value of infantry units.

Again, though, it seems to me that if abusing horsemen ruins the enjoyment of SP for someone, they can just not build them. Last weekend, I held off on invading the last continent so that I could reach modern units, just to see what they're like.

 

[Buccaneer]

I think it becomes an interesting dilemma that if one introduces penalties for the unit, would it hurt the AI more than it would you? This is where a number of the early mods fail, imo. But I also agree that it would be difficult to give the AI bonuses, like increased unit spawning, since they can't manage cost vs. benefit, as Dizzy said. I don't know what the history have been in giving penalties just to the human player?

 

[Putmalk]

A little personal mod I did for myself: I lowered the attack of the Horseman and Companion Cavalry by 10, gave them the penalty for attacking cities, and had the only difference between the two is the 5 move by the Companion Cavalry, and the great general increased chance. I haven't tested it out, but I think that it should balance out the rush a bit.

What do you think? This strategy is ridiculously easy, the AI cannot stand a chance.

 

[Louis XXIV]

I think it becomes an interesting dilemma that if one introduces penalties for the unit, would it hurt the AI more than it would you? This is where a number of the early mods fail, imo. But I also agree that it would be difficult to give the AI bonuses, like increased unit spawning, since they can't manage cost vs. benefit, as Dizzy said. I don't know what the history have been in giving penalties just to the human player?

I still can't think of many encounters with AI cavalry. If they used it a lot, it would be difficult to decide (since they're pretty bad at sieges as it is). Can anyone at higher difficulties comment on their use of fast units?

 

[Blacklanner]

I very rarely see ai cavalry of any sort on emp/immortal/deity. Most ai armies are spears/archers/swords with a sprinkle of siege once they get the techs. Aztecs are using a few horsemen in my current game, but bulk of their forces are spears and crossbows.

I think the mobility is the biggest balance problem. I find most of the time I'd rather have horsemen than knights because 4 move is much more useful than the extra str. And I never use knights as alex. CC are outright better without upgrading them until cavalry. even then I'm not sure double strength is worth half speed as long as your enemies haven't teched up enough to require it. I'd rather have cc vs pikes/muskets or less than cavalry i think. Changing horsemen to 3 speed and cc to 4 speed and 13 str would probably have them close to balanced.

 

[andrewlt]

Isn't the 33% defense penalty on base tiles part of the problem? It puts too much of an advantage to the attacker on these tiles. With a more mobile army, it's too easy to get the AI to put their units on those tiles and attack them.

 

[eviltypeguy]

To add to that, use up the first 3 Honor social policies and add the Great General to the army and the AI has no chance. The only thing I could suggest to you is play continents. By the time to get to the other contiinents, they would probably have Pikes.

I thought I'd share this in its own thread. To be honest, part of why I'm posting this is to highlight a severe balance issue...

This strategy has worked for me and a friend multiple times in a row now. I cannot vouch for its viability on Immortal/Deity (although I will be playing some Deity games this weekend), but on Emperor and below you will win 100% or near-100% of the time. What really bothers me about this strategy is not only how effective it is but how sickeningly easy it is to do. It's clear to me that this game was either a) very poorly playtested from a balance perspective or b) designed around more competent AI that has since been mysteriously nerfed.

Initial Setup:
+ Found capital.
+ Open tech tree. Click "Horseback Riding."
+ Build scout.

Then:
+ Build Worker.
+ Build Settler.
+ Build whatever.
+ Found City 2 next to horses. Send Worker with Settler so you can construct a pasture on City 2's horses immediately.
+ Build whatever in City 2 (Monument, likely).
+ When the pasture finishes you must then immediately switch the production queue of both Capital and City 2 off of whatever you're building. Make them build Horsemen instead.
+ When the first Horseman finishes, buy another Horseman. Let the other Horseman finish building. Now you have three.
+ Steamroll all AI.

Win every time. Every. Single. Time.

AI cannot handle Horsemen at this stage, or really any stage. Abuse the extra moves enjoyed by Horsemen to dodge whatever spearmen they have (likely they have 0). Use all promotions on full heal (save for when your Horsemen get weak). You probably won't need to reinforce these Horsemen, although it couldn't hurt to send one or two more up to the front lines by the time you get to AI #3 or #4. You'll trigger a domination victory by about turn 100 on small maps, turn 140 on standard maps (depending on number of AIs selected). You can even conquer some City-States along the way if you prefer. Turn 90 and lower victories are possible if you just chain declare on AI.

Play Greece and tech Honor (free GG to lead troops, +str for units adjacent to other units, and double XP) for even more lulz.

lulz indeed; I just played Emperor difficulty for the first time:

* Alexander (me) vs. Gandhi
* Marathon
* Tiny Map
* Great Plains

Domination Victory around 1500bc I think using the strategy above? I could have done it sooner if I pushed.

I feel like I need to shower now

 

[Bibor]

The optimal fix to horsemen would be to put them into the same category as Tanks. Their role is exactly the same too: mobile, dominating the open field, but terrible at defence and taking cities.

BTW, Genghis Khan used chinese siege engineers for his conquests and also used infantry. Keshiks were just a part of his army.

 

[Dissonance]

Well, my knowledge of historic warfare says that the reason that horses were so powerful is that their charge, which is kinetic force plus faster-than-man speed, would overwhelm any unorganized forces.

The Greeks and Romans didn't like that a whole lot, and created aforementioned organized defenses. When set against charge, spears would put the horseman charge to work against himself, as he would impale himself or his horse on the spear, before doing any real damage.

This could only work in a formation, would require some setup. As horses were mobile, to counter them one would also have to set up cover on all sides.

So, the answer seems simple - follow history. Give all cavalry counters a significant Fortify bonus, similar to how Siege Weapons deploy. Then, maybe give them a small innate tactics bonus, to stack with the Honor promotions.

Alternatively, you could alter horsemen by making them take extra penalty when attacking entrenched and well-positioned units. What if horsemen took 50% extra penalty for Fortified and Terrain? That +25% for hill, and +50% for fortify suddenly becomes 32.5 + 75 = +107.5%, over the original 75%

Now if only the devs read this forum...

 

[Bibor]

Well, my knowledge of historic warfare says that the reason that horses were so powerful is that their charge, which is kinetic force plus faster-than-man speed, would overwhelm any unorganized forces.

The Greeks and Romans didn't like that a whole lot, and created aforementioned organized defenses. When set against charge, spears would put the horseman charge to work against himself, as he would impale himself or his horse on the spear, before doing any real damage.

This could only work in a formation, would require some setup. As horses were mobile, to counter them one would also have to set up cover on all sides.

So, the answer seems simple - follow history. Give all cavalry counters a significant Fortify bonus, similar to how Siege Weapons deploy. Then, maybe give them a small innate tactics bonus, to stack with the Honor promotions.

Alternatively, you could alter horsemen by making them take extra penalty when attacking entrenched and well-positioned units. What if horsemen took 50% extra penalty for Fortified and Terrain? That +25% for hill, and +50% for fortify suddenly becomes 32.5 + 75 = +107.5%, over the original 75%

Now if only the devs read this forum...

Well historically, cavalry was only effective if it was a surprise or flank attack, or if the enemy hasn't prepared for them (no wooden stakes, pikes etc.). I have yet to see a horse brave enough to charge into a swarm of sharpened 10-foot poles.

IMO spearmen should have a much higher multiplier vs. horses and the horses should have extra "flanking bonus" (not the honor policy) if a friendly non-mounted unit is adjacent to them.

 

[Roxlimn]

Alternatively, make the Formation promo available immediately (same as Shock and Drill) and then allow it to give units an additional +100 against Mounted. This simulates the difficulty cavalry traditionally have against trained units, while allowing them to run roughshod over untrained units.

Cavalry, in particular, seem weak in Civ V. I've only been able to have phenomenal success with Cavalry when I grossly out-tech my enemies, or when I've upgraded them from Songhai Mandekalu Cavalry. Otherwise, they seem lackluster.

Horsemen vs. Warriors and Archer is totally lopsided. Perhaps that is why the AI is having problems.

 

[bluedevil99]

Just remember, though a lot of the solutions people are proposing here are interesting, it's really only horsemen that are unbalanced IMO, and mostly because they have both the highest base STR of any unit of their era *and* the most movement of any unit until lancers. I'd hate to see rule changes that gimp knights and cavalry, which IMO are already not that great compared to longswordsmen and riflemen.

 

[Roxlimn]

bluedevil99:

Lancers! Well, that's interesting. Here is a 4-movement unit in the Renaissance era with the same movement as Horsemen, but everyone pretty much hates it. Why?

 

[Lord Parkin]

I still can't think of many encounters with AI cavalry. If they used it a lot, it would be difficult to decide (since they're pretty bad at sieges as it is). Can anyone at higher difficulties comment on their use of fast units?

Immortal/Deity is no different to Emperor and below in this respect. Across half a dozen or more games at the highest two levels I actually don't think I've ever seen an AI Horseman. I occasionally see Chariots (especially if it's Egypt), but that's about it. The AI currently seems to be biased against building them (or researching HBR), for whatever odd reason.

Immortal/Deity is really only different in the sense that sometimes the AI will randomly declare war on you around turn 20 when you have no defences whatsoever and no chance to counter their dozens of free units. Apart from this silly occurrence every now and then, the Horseman rush strategy still works well right up to the top levels. The sheer ease with which one can eliminate civs even on Deity with a few Horseman units is indeed rather sickening.

It's a combination of an overpowered unit and an abysmal strategic AI - one that never really builds Horse units, hardly builds Spearmen, sends its Archers to the frontlines to die, and leaves its cities almost entirely undefended. There's no challenge even on the highest levels at the moment, as long as you survive the initial setup stage without the AI dogpiling you with all its free units. If you get past those first few dozen turns or so on Deity, you're pretty much set for a win with the Horseman-rush "strategy".

 

[Louis XXIV]

Wow, good to know. I might dig into some XML files and bump up the AI's likelihood of building horses and see what the result is (since I obviously can't change an XML file to have them protect their archers).

By the way, is the demo game still going on? I lost my link to the site after my computer crashed.

 

[Lord Parkin]

Wow, good to know. I might dig into some XML files and bump up the AI's likelihood of building horses and see what the result is (since I obviously can't change an XML file to have them protect their archers).

I'd be interested to hear of the results. So far it seems the AI only ever builds Horse units if they're a UU for the civ, and skips them otherwise. Very perplexing.

By the way, is the demo game still going on? I lost
my link to the site after my computer crashed.

It died inconclusively a while ago, sadly. GWT left the game due to having no-one left who wanted to play in their worsening situation, and that kind of killed the game for everyone else. A shame.

There's a link to the site in my sig.