Emperor: Win Every Game with Horsemen

Well I put my horseman nerf on the database a few days ago...hopefully it'll correct this rushing problem!

To be specific:

- Nerfed both Horseman and Companion Cavalry to have 2 less damage.
- Both receive a 40% penalty to cities.

That should be enough, I hope! Let me know what you guys think.
 
Yes it is true and ironic considering the premise of this thread - the AI never builds horse in the early game when they are most effective. All the more so as the AI is programmed to rush the human, apparently when you plop down a 3rd city, from what I can gather from these boards. That is fine, except that part of the rush program should be "research HBR"!:rolleyes:

However the AI can spam fairly massive classical armies if they are determined to attack you. I had Arabia spawn about 10 spearmen backed by 5 archers plus 1 swordsman and a catapult in a rush on a frontier city. Luckily my Horsemen of the Apocalypse army (3 + 3 Egyptian chariot archers) had been posted on sentry duty after having bum rushed the English out of the gate, so I saw the approaching Arabian army even before they declared on me. They lost the element of surprise as I hastily concentrated the horse army, + 2 warriors and an archer lying around, about the target 4 pop city. Plus a GG from the English war. I can say that spearmen in this quantity inhibited the use of the horsemen, and the defense relied mainly on the ranged units + the city, plus the lucky coincidence that I had opened up my first iron mine (2 iron only though) and had money in the bank, and was able to upgrade the warriors to swords just in time - without those I might have actually lost. The horsemen meanwhile were largely relegated to flank duty picking off weakened units, plus the catapult that the AI stupidly placed in the first assault wave. It was a long bloody battle before I eventually prevailed with the loss of 1 horseman, 1 chariot archer ( meanwhile I build another horseman + swordsman and brought them to the front, that's how long the battle lasted. Plus using insta-heal promotions). All this on King only, so this was not the result of some Diety AI overkill.

I never saw an AI GG out of all of this, in fact I almost never see AI GGs. I did see that Arabia had advanced down the Honor SP branch, as his units had the 15% adjacency bonus, so that was smart prep at least. But the AI doesn't withdraw heavily wounded units from the front lines to fight again later, allowing me to kill them in the next round. But the AI did tend to place archers behind (or at the flanks, where they were however vulnerable to my horsemen) the massed ranks of spear.

But strategically, yes, the AI is lame early game: either it attempts a (horseless) early rush, or it builds no defensive military and sits like a patsy for your Apocalypse army to walk in. This is crucial as he game is half won when you clear your continent, opening up a long era of massive peaceful expansion in prep for the endgame. I actually did this with ...Ghandi:lol:...on a large map on a huge continent shared with the Babs (1st down) Romans (2nd) Arabs (3rd) and Egyptians (last). Bing bang boom. Only one to field any army was Arabia, a spear and a few warriors was all. the rest just some ranged units, the Romans, zilch. You'd think they'd get the hint after I mercilessly rolled Babylon early on. Perhaps the AI is programmed to think: "human = Ghandi = peaceful culture player, can relax"? Well fooled them:lol: In which case this makes Ghandi the deadliest of early game threats in human hands.

And perhaps game over on Pangaea, which I therefore never play in Civ and have not yet played in CivV.

Immortal/Deity is no different to Emperor and below in this respect. Across half a dozen or more games at the highest two levels I actually don't think I've ever seen an AI Horseman. I occasionally see Chariots (especially if it's Egypt), but that's about it. The AI currently seems to be biased against building them (or researching HBR), for whatever odd reason.

Immortal/Deity is really only different in the sense that sometimes the AI will randomly declare war on you around turn 20 when you have no defences whatsoever and no chance to counter their dozens of free units. Apart from this silly occurrence every now and then, the Horseman rush strategy still works well right up to the top levels. The sheer ease with which one can eliminate civs even on Deity with a few Horseman units is indeed rather sickening.

It's a combination of an overpowered unit and an abysmal strategic AI - one that never really builds Horse units, hardly builds Spearmen, sends its Archers to the frontlines to die, and leaves its cities almost entirely undefended. There's no challenge even on the highest levels at the moment, as long as you survive the initial setup stage without the AI dogpiling you with all its free units. If you get past those first few dozen turns or so on Deity, you're pretty much set for a win with the Horseman-rush "strategy".
 
lulz indeed; I just played Emperor difficulty for the first time:

* Alexander (me) vs. Gandhi
* Marathon
* Tiny Map
* Great Plains

Domination Victory around 1500bc I think using the strategy above? I could have done it sooner if I pushed.

I feel like I need to shower now :blush:

Okay, lulz round 2.

First time I've ever played immortal difficulty:

* Alexander (me) vs. Elizabeth
* Marathon
* Tiny Map
* Great Plains

Domination Victory around 1400bc using 3 companion calvary and a great general.

Dangit; now I have to shower again :lol:
 
AI doesnt mass spears? In my game Persia massed spears pretty much, and Japan to the south also had a massive army of spears. Still used horsemen but it took a while
 
Okay, lulz round 2.

First time I've ever played immortal difficulty:

* Alexander (me) vs. Elizabeth
* Marathon
* Tiny Map
* Great Plains
* First three honor social policies

Domination Victory around 1400bc using 3 companion calvary and a great general.

Dangit; now I have to shower again :lol:

Alright, lulz round 3. (Final lulz post from me on this topic anyway... :lol:)

Deity difficulty:

* Alexander (me) vs. Gandhi
* Marathon
* Tiny Map
* Great Plains

Domination Victory at 1620bc using 3 companion calvary and a great general.

So really, you only need the three horseman of the apocalypse :mischief:

Yes, I know I gave myself some unfair advantages with the other game options, but really, this is just silly :crazyeye:
 
I never saw an AI GG out of all of this, in fact I almost never see AI GGs.
I've seen them quite a bit on Immortal/Deity. The problem is, the AI pretty much ALWAYS seems to keep its Great General within 1 tile of its capital city, and never move it much (except sometimes to shift it out into the open where you can 1-shot kill it). I presume this is either a bug or a misunderstanding of the game mechanics by the programmers. The AI seems to be programmed to think "keep Great General around capital for defence", when really that's a silly strategy - much better would be "keep Great General with main army for offence + defence". Especially with Wu Zetian. Doesn't seem to happen though, there's almost always one lame Great General sitting in or around the capital city on Immortal/Deity when I come to take it, and next to no troops nearby (the troops instead all throwing themselves on the offence at the border).
 
I just did this myself on diety, first try. On the one hand I can finally say I beat diety in a Civ game. On the other hand.. so lame.
 
I've seen them quite a bit on Immortal/Deity. The problem is, the AI pretty much ALWAYS seems to keep its Great General within 1 tile of its capital city, and never move it much (except sometimes to shift it out into the open where you can 1-shot kill it). I presume this is either a bug or a misunderstanding of the game mechanics by the programmers. The AI seems to be programmed to think "keep Great General around capital for defence", when really that's a silly strategy - much better would be "keep Great General with main army for offence + defence". Especially with Wu Zetian. Doesn't seem to happen though, there's almost always one lame Great General sitting in or around the capital city on Immortal/Deity when I come to take it, and next to no troops nearby (the troops instead all throwing themselves on the offence at the border).
^ Truth. Even on Immortal/Deity, AI keeps the GG in the capitol 95% of the time. 5% he leaves him to die 2 tiles from it with workers around him.

I think the biggest thing here is how random horse and especially iron resources can be. This is most true in the start of the game when having 2 horses far off or 6 horses right on top of your capital is HUGE.

Horses should be 2 always, but like I said there are other problems with strategic resources. By mid game I have 30-40 iron that I'm not using, for example. That's ridiculous. Only the AI can sustain 40 unit armies by that time, and they are highly ineffective because of the 1UPT rule.
 
Their biggest point is being able to move after combat. Even with a 2-move swordsman, if I could attack then move, I'd be a lot stronger.

I saw a lot of threads when the game came out about Companion Cavalry dominating. I was at the time dominating with just horsemen. It's not that the Greek UU is overpowered, but that it's a big bonus on a unit that's already overpowered.

Have to agree with this. The "hit and run" aspect makes ransacking capitals while avoiding spearmen too easy. Blitz and attack + move wasn't a big deal in Civ 4, but the AI didn't really learn anything since SoD warfare and makes poor military choices in general. I think they just need their :strength: toned down, and only 3 :move:; building them would still have merit, but they wouldn't be able to sweep up an entire continent in a few dozen turns.
 
Either that, or remove the ability for them to retreat after battle. Not sure if that'd go too far in the opposite direction though.
 
Story: This horseman strategy is so powerful that even a dyed-in-the-wool cultural player like me can use it and win. I played 8 civ, Standard, Pangaea, as Alexander. I had a really unusual and very slow start as there were no horses to be found anywhere within miles (unlike the usual surfeit) till I found two pastures across some hills between mountains and behind an inland city state! So I only founded my second city on turn 52, took my first capital on turn 74, and won on turn 147.

Lesson: I had to lie all the time. "Hey - you're massing troops on my border." Option 1: "You're right to be worried. It's time for you to die (Declare war)". Option 2: "Nah, we're just passing through... really... honest..." Option 1 gives them first strike and/or you may not be ready. You have to take the rep hit with option 2 all the time. (I know this is obvious to you guys but it was new to me.)

Question: When you've captured a capital, does it still count toward your domination victory if the opposing civ had other cities and units and they successfully liberate their own original capital? Or do you have to make sure that doesn't happen? I realized I didn't know and I found units trying to get their old capital back. So I chose to exterminate all cities, every time but one (the first civ). Took more time and more Companion Cavalry. (I had nine at the end, enough to take out an entire civ in one or two turns.) But what's the answer please?

Bug: The first capital to go was the Iroquois. I was withdrawing to go to the next capital when I found them trying to liberate it. Not knowing the answer to the question (above) I went back in to take out the other cities - but with only three horsemen. After a few turns, Hiawatha comes on screen suing for peace, and offering nearly all his gold PLUS another city. Since the gold was enough to purchase a new companion cavalry outright, I took the peace deal! I immediately got the option to annex, puppet or raze this new city that was part of the deal. Razing seemed churlish, I didn't want to annex because of the happy-hit, so I chose to puppet. It then said "Choose production". Eh what? I ignored it and took the rest of my turn. But it still said "Choose production". But clicking did only that - it just clicked. No city screen came up - because it was a puppet, of course. But the game would not move on. I was stuck. Click, no action. So in the end I was forced to annex the city, and take the happy-hit, just to get to the next turn. That's a bug. Anyone know if that's been seen before?
 
Bug: I didn't want to annex because of the happy-hit, so I chose to puppet. It then said "Choose production". Eh what? I ignored it and took the rest of my turn. But it still said "Choose production". But clicking did only that - it just clicked. No city screen came up - because it was a puppet, of course. But the game would not move on.

I can confirm this bug. Not only in single player: this happens all the time to us during 'Local Network' MP games.
 
Bug: I didn't want to annex because of the happy-hit, so I chose to puppet. It then said "Choose production". Eh what? I ignored it and took the rest of my turn. But it still said "Choose production". But clicking did only that - it just clicked. No city screen came up - because it was a puppet, of course. But the game would not move on. I was stuck. Click, no action. So in the end I was forced to annex the city, and take the happy-hit, just to get to the next turn. That's a bug. Anyone know if that's been seen before?

It happened to me as well. Except I did not annex the city to get rid of the problem. I just quit.
 
bluedevil99:

Lancers! Well, that's interesting. Here is a 4-movement unit in the Renaissance era with the same movement as Horsemen, but everyone pretty much hates it. Why?

a lancer is like a 9-10 str horseman that couldn't upgrade. not bad, but not completely OP. oh, and by that time there are a lot more roads so the extra move isn't as overwhelming of an advantage as it is in the early game.
 
Okay, lulz round 2.

First time I've ever played immortal difficulty:

* Alexander (me) vs. Elizabeth
* Marathon
* Tiny Map
* Great Plains

Domination Victory around 1400bc using 3 companion calvary and a great general.

Dangit; now I have to shower again :lol:

playing immortal for the first time right now. standard/epic/continents. got stonehenge as irroquois, got stonehenge without marble or the +33% wonder SP bonus. Then, I started on the bigger continent, luckily the AI kept DOW'ing each other at the start. by turn 204 I had 13 cities, an entire continent and lots of captured wonders. just found america and babylon (I think GW ate the other civ). I'm pretending to go after babylon for 28 more turns until I can get rifleman to catch up with america, then I'm gonna ring his liberty bell! Overall not very much more challenging than emperor, though I did start somewhat isolated from the other civs. think I'll go up to deity next.
 
Either that, or remove the ability for them to retreat after battle. Not sure if that'd go too far in the opposite direction though.


That would completely defeat the purpose of a cavalry unit. Their strength may be too strong but I think the biggest problem is the 4 move. Knights only have 3 and aren't as broken in their time period as horsemen are.
 
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