Emperor: Win Every Game with Horsemen

[MK83M]

Could this problem easily be adressed by imposing minor terrain penalties for offensive mounted combat in forrests and maybe even in hills?

 

[pi-r8]

I can attest to that with my current game, even though I did start out doing wonders and Patronages. Then I rushed and nothing can stop 4 Comp Cav, nor just now upgrading them to Knights.

I feel so sad when I upgrade the CC to knights. I feel like, in a lot of situations I'd rather have the CC. That 5 move is just so fast, and the knights are only a little bit stronger.

 

[Buccaneer]

I feel so sad when I upgrade the CC to knights. I feel like, in a lot of situations I'd rather have the CC. That 5 move is just so fast, and the knights are only a little bit stronger.

I know what you mean, esp. compared to 3 move Knights. But in close quarters, the Knight does provide enough power to overwhelm even a Spearmen in one turn (with a great general). A CC wouldn't been able to do that.

 

[PTM]

How does 10 Strength and 3 move sound? Would that make them balanced?

This is what I've done in my own personal balance mod. Companion Cavalry are now 12 str, 3 move, cost 10H extra.

Works wonders. Rushing 1-2 AI into oblivion is still possible, but you'll have trouble with AI beyond that. Well actually I don't know if this change alone actually "works wonders" because this was never tested in vacuum (I also have many other changes in my personal mod that affect, among other things, the viability of horsemen rushing). But as part of the larger whole I've created, yes, wonders have been worked!

 

[Ogrelord]

Upgraded them to knights? what about the Songhai with their Mandekalu Calvary (Abilities: +30% bonus vs. Cities).

 

[grandad1982]

Not sure I would want to remove the move after combat bouse but buffing spears would be welcomed. Maybe give Horsemen a penalty v cities, say 30%? CC could lose a strength point or the extra movement point.

Spear base strength of 8?

Nerfing Horsemens city attacks would also have the benifit of making swords more handy.

This way the extra mobility can still make Horsemen good field units

Also agree insta-heal is a real pony of an idea. Maybe make it heal half the damage or just go back to the civ4 style, all promos heal you a little bit.

 

[Oolon]

I don't know if it was mentioned already, but you could just build the city on top of the horses and don't wait for the pasture.

 

[Buccaneer]

Just finished wiping out Egypt, Songhai, Aztecs and French on my continent with a rotation of 5 Knights plus a Great General. Now sending them across the ocean to the New World to wreak havoc there. It shouldn't be this easy (on Prince).

 

[AndyWiltshireNZ]

That's funny, I'm playing a game where I seem to be the horse whisperer, got so many pastures, I decided to go on the rampage with horsemen and wow is it powerful. I was pretty much the terror of the isle, easily capturing cities, and running over opponents, I love the hit and run attack dynamic.

Recently upgraded to Knights and looking to take on the might of the Russian empire that has spread like a virus after my initial conquest. It worked out quite good, considering I have absolutely no access to Iron and all the Civs on the continent are constantly at war so I couldn't secure any.

I haven't played a game yet (out of about 5-6) where the AI really utilizes horses at all. That and their naval abilities seem pretty limited.

 

[WaKKO151]

I personally have no problem with Horseman being so strong. They are the only 'Ancient' unit with a direct counter. The trouble is that the AI doesnt make very good use of that counter. In MP games, it's pretty easy to defend yourself against the early Horseman. Heck even well managed Warrior strikes with city bombardment can make it costly.

I do agree that a city attack penalty wouldnt be out of whack though. Taking cities should not be the role of Horseman...

I keep hearing that horse units should have a city attack penalty. With the exception of Songhai UU...they all come with a 10% city attack penalty already. i do think It should be changed to a 30% penalty though.

 

[SerriaFox]

The horseman as shipped does not have a city attack penalty

It does have a no defensive bonus penalty, but they can easily out run counter attacks

 

[highfive]

I agree that the AI might not account for them. However, I would imagine that MP opponents certainly would. I couple of well placed units with defensive bonuses and ranged support would quickly slow down horses.

I would imagine walls and castles would also slow down horses sieging cities. You just have to know what resources your opponent is using.

Personally, I think horses are a great tech path because they seem to compare fairly well to both iron units and gunpowder units until things start to merge again in the industrial era. If they weren't viable, I think people would be complaining about having to always find, get and/or fight over iron deposits instead of being able to invest in the top half of the tech tree.

 

[funny.man]

Personally, I think horses are a great tech path because they seem to compare fairly well to both iron units and gunpowder units until things start to merge again in the industrial era. If they weren't viable, I think people would be complaining about having to always find, get and/or fight over iron deposits instead of being able to invest in the top half of the tech tree.

But at the beginning they are far superior to swordsman. Higher attack, mobility, ability to move away after attack and most importantly - you discover horses with your first technology so you may sent you first settler to grab horses while for swordsman not only you discover iron WAY later but you have to make settler (time, time, time) and only then you can start to produce them. And iron seems to be much less abundant than horses.

 

[crontab]

Funny, I just discovered this same thing tonight. Horsemen damage any city I attack for anywhere from 1/3rd to 1/2th their health in ONE attack. I haven't even built a single siege unit, just two Horsemen + Great General (doing this as China is extra sick.)

 

[ShaqFu]

Before the game was released, I was under the impression that mounted units were designed as specialized support - you'd use them to flank an army, or catch marching units off-guard, but never as your core. That role was for resourceless infantry, like Spears/Pikes, which incidentally are supposed to hard counter mounted. Basically, if my Horsemen ran into your mostly-Spearman army, I'd get slaughtered, but catching a few out of position could turn a war in my favor. Useful, but only in combined arms with Spears/Archers.

Instead, Horsemen are excellent at, well, everything. There's absolutely no reason not to use them, unless you're in North America or something and don't have horse. They take cities! They beat Spearmen! They slaughter Archers! They pillage! They might as well slice and dice while they're at it.

 

[kroket]

Easiest solution to me seems to be to seriously increase the bonus spearman get on DEFENSE. So if they attack a horseman they only get 100% bonus, but if they defend they should get like 300% making them 28 strength... The AI should just build some more units too. As for basic tactics... well that will be hard to code in i think!

 

[WaKKO151]

The horseman as shipped does not have a city attack penalty

It does have a no defensive bonus penalty, but they can easily out run counter attacks

i was reading the strategy guide and it seems that it is incorrect on ship day because it clearly states that horsemen get a penatly to city attacking citys. WTH Sid. WTH.

The only expanation is taht they are using a game that is not what was playtested and now our scrambling to patch a game to the play tested version.

 

[Buccaneer]

Yes, I think mounted units should get a penalty for attacking cities; that would be the easiest fix, I believe.

 

[gaiko]

Tell that to Jenghis Khan.

Slightly off this important topic, but perhaps not when the historical record is set straight concerning the Mongols.

Mongol Keshik and horse in general were not used to take cities - they were used to 1) defeat armies in the field and 2) ravage the agricultural countryside (the nomadic pastoral Mongols considered settled agriculture a waste of good pasture land, and farmers as parasites to be eliminated).

The Mongols almost always took cities the "old fashioned" (i.e., the only way): with melee and siege (catapults, trebuchets, employing skilled Chinese for these "high tech" tasks).

So the mounted unit nerfing proposed here - which I totally agree with - would not only restore game balance, but be historically realistic as well.

I'd also extend this to non siege units (archer, chariot archer, crossbow) its too easy to soften up even substantial cites with 2-3 of these. But that for another thread.

 

[jauggy]

Just won a very fast Immortal game using something similar to this. Only had one swordsman was built and he only had one kill. The horseman wiped out everyone.