End of Empires - N3S III

Thlayli said:
My split personalities definitely dislike each other more now that they've been forced to fight each other all the time.
All those civil wars are hard on the soul :(
 
Excerpt - On First Things: Bharaji (690-771 SR)

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The heathens say in their ignorance that creation adheres to no fixed order, to no system of rules that make it intelligible to man. They say that the order we perceive clearly with our minds is subject to change, and is mutable. They betray with these words the sleep of their reason, and the shadowing of their intellects in the veil of Istria. For the Oporistrin, the cosmic order, which the Church has proclaimed, and which proceeds from the divine balance decreed in the beginning and from the immovable foundation that is the Deity, is evident to all through reason.

Behold for example the principle that 2 + 3 equals 5. This truth, is known to all and indeed no even the heathen philosophers and priests deny that this is so. All understand that any part of this law of the universe cannot be altered without changing the equation itself. Thus it is known a priori, as a self-evident and intrinsically manifest truth that 2 +3 always equals five, the three and the two cannot be changed without making each component other than what it is. There is no how or why to such a truth, it simply is necessarily so, be it as a necessary consequence of the perfection of the uncreated One, made manifest in the universe it created or simply because it just is. Likewise it is known with certain truth through the intellect that a square must have four equal sides, for to change any side of the square is to remove the squareness from the shape. Thus it is known a priori, as a self-evident truth that a square has four equal sides. Such unchanging laws, the laws of mathematics, arithmetic and geometry are true essentially and universally, they are complete expressions of the divine laws that constitute the foundation of creation. This being so, it is shown that there are unchanging and universal principles that are comprehensible to man, and intelligible, and which can through meditation and careful practice be uncovered, even as a man in his finite and limited being, cannot fully comprehend in a single mind the totality of the whole.

Just as there are laws in mathematics, immutable and independent of the human intellect that govern creation and which are universal everywhere, for 2 + 3 must always equal five, and a square must always have four sides. So too are there spiritual laws subject not to the material order which are immutable, unchanging and inalterable. It is certain truth for example that the universe must have been created, for the contingent cannot proceed from other contingent things into infinity, but must have an immovable and eternal origin. This is not percieved directly, we cannot see the creator with the senses, but is known through the intellects reason, since it is observable that everything that exists must have a cause, just as a stone falling over the edge of a cliff must have something to initiate its calamitous descent. In the same manner as the stone necessarily requiring something to cause its descent, we can know that only through being sustained and created by something that is uncreated, uncaused, and uncontingent, can contingent things exist. This leads us to the conclusion that it is only as a product of an eternal will that universal law can exist, with the order that is known in mathematics and in nature being properly understood simply as the expression of a creative will, written into the constitution of the universe at its foundation. Only understood as such can reality be understood, for it is a necessary requirement for order that there be something that is eternal and unchanging at the origin of all things.

Ergo, the truth of the eternal One can be known, and the sustainment of the universe through the oporistrin which proceeds from the two emanations of the same One within creation can be understood as true, for surely contingent existence can only be at the sufferance of the existence of that which is necessary, only by divine will can we understand why and how things perpetuate in existence. However even apart from these truths there are other things that can be known as manifestly true. One of these is that man exists, for in the very act of thinking a man must exist, for without his soul to spark thought, no thought could exist, for something cannot proceed from non-existence. Even if our perception and intellects were utterly clouded by Istria with the veil of oblivion, of forgetfulness, this we could know as true, for it is immovable and self-manifestly true. In these things, the existence of the One, the necessity of divine preservation of the universe in the maintenance of its order, that oneself exists, and that immutable truths of mathematics exists, we can observe things that are immutable, and which are intrinsically and essentially true. It is therefore clear that the heathen is deluded and manifestly false in his proposal that there is no divine order intelligible to man. That creation exists to no pattern or order. For even should we be all deceived by Istria, or be in total ignorance certain truths can be discerned through the darkness as self-evident and manifestly so. No one possessed of insight and reason for example can deny that 2+3 = 5.

Knowing this then, are not the errors of the Ardavanists who say that the universe is unintelligible and uncreated rendered bare for all to see. Is not the delusions of certain maninist schools, and the Indagahori, who say that there is no immovable creator, rendered clear? Is not the crass worldly baseness of Aitahism, which possesses no insight into higher truths and commands only blind obeisance to their false gods not made evident to all? In the presence of truth error is revealed, and so it is that since it is self-evident that there is a higher order known through right thinking, consequentially the falsitude of the religions of error, who detest the true religion and despise the Holy Church, is likewise made known to all men of sound mind.
 
OOC: You know, Jehoshua, while I am extremely flattered that you're paying attention to me, you don't have to write an IC rebuttal for everything I write, irrespective of the likelihood that you even know of its existence. :p

I personally believe you're smart enough to write on your own topics, and not just constantly react to my admittedly awe-inspiring creativity.
 
ooc: I've done plenty of my own stuff to the point that I was the dominant contributor recently, I've expanded on the old-thearakean lexicon, established the hierarchy of the priesthood, set out the boundaries of Iralliamite scripture, and even gone about giving some idea of ritual and religious practice. At any rate, with regards to my two post-facto contributions in the wake of your things, the first wasn't really a rebuttal, merely quotations that dealt with the phrase (I do not consume like the flame) and how that could be interpreted to apply to the Opporia. Ergo to give a bit of elaboration as to what may have been going in the mind of the dying High Oracle (for obviously it would be a tad meta to say either of our religions are the true ones :p )

The second one I felt compelled to write because a) the base assumption of an unintelligible universe is logically fallacious and more importantly b) because the assumption of an ordered and comprehensible universe is a core Iralliamite concept. In RP terms, its pretty much dealing only with the heathen concept of an anarchic universe and not with your works "natural philosophy" thing, which is its core aspect. The core philosophical point of an anarchic universe incidentally would be known, since its a key part of Ardavan. Obviously I wouldn't know of your "scientific ritual" developments, so I don't go there. At any rate, this one is not a direct rebuttal of your post (it only deals with one part of what you wrote).

On an aside however, the indications in your piece of a move towards recognising the existence of necessary and objectively true laws in nature is driving (in my opinion) the Ardavani world towards an inevitable crisis of knowledge similar to that which occurred in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries when Aristotelianism was displaced from its four hundred year philosophical hegemony (with its fallacious cosmology and theory of four elements, coming against empirical observation as technology improved), but potentially more acute and severe since increasing understanding is challenging key ardavani philosophical doctrines (the universe as fundamentally anarchic as a reflection of the cosmic war, with laws being mutable and the whole thing generally being incomprehensible to human reasoning). Ultimately (with regards to the how and why questions of natural laws) the answers boil down to "they just are" or that they are the products of the will of a divine creator of the universe who is an eternal first principle and thus not subject to space and time (ergo the One, the concept of which I put in Iralliam to provide a link to the neighbouring Oneist religion of antiquity [since considering proximity its likely they would have a common origin, much as the Indo-European religions have Zeus Pater in Greece, Dyaus Pitar in India, and Ju Piter in Italy ... all deriving from the same primeval source] and a reason for the extirpation of said sect [heresy])

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EDIT: In RPish terms, the base theological principle of an ordered universe is already present in Iralliam. The character I used to point it out in the context of showing how there is a conflict of religious principle on the matter of whether the universe is anarchic or not is one actually in my orders, although as a mystical theologian. One could take the work I had him write (On First Principles) as essentially a bid to harmonise the reasoned principles of Iralliam I noted in the bit I excerpted, with the mystical principles he is proposing in his other works and showing how they are not contradictory.

As to writing my own things, I fully intend to do so once the update is up :p
 
OOC:

If those empirical laws are immutable, it sure puts a kibosh on divine intervention breaking the normal rules of reality, now doesn't it? I guess those miracles and visions in the scriptures were just lies. Look I'm not going to get into refutations of basic Thomistic arguments, there's the internet for that. But don't try and make the argument that increased empirical knowledge will somehow prove Ardavan wrong and Iralliam right, though, as that puts you in a box as well.

I could just as easily state that when the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle and quantum theory are discovered revealing anarchic and unknowable principles at the core of the universe's operation, Iralliamites must throw up their hands and despair for their epistemology. But that would be foolish, wouldn't it?
 
ooc: Your scholars are saying that the universe has no natural order or cosmic laws at all though, which is a completely different kettle of fish from whether gods can intervene on occasion (be it through acting beyond laws with whatever philosophical justification one can produce for that, or acting within laws [your first post actually iirc notes that the gods and the universe are bound by rules, although how you meant that is up to you :p]). Regardless the examples (with the disputable exception of the Cosmic first principle rule) I noted are brute facts. God himself could not change 2+3 to equal 23, all the power in existence could not do that. The things I mentioned as examples as such are not so much natural laws, but ontological ones. One universe, plus another universe equals two universes, one eternal god plus another eternal god equals two eternal gods. The rule the 1+1 equals 2 applies as such completely beyond the binding rules of any given universe (such as the rules of space-time for example). So even if the universe of N3S was subject to divine whims with regards to natural laws (such as regarding trees and water), certain things wouldn't change, they are immutable, they are necessary truths that are not subject to divine intervention.

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Oh and I wasn't saying it would prove Ardavan wrong (nothing discussed here touches on Taleldil, or basic ardavani theological principles) I'm saying it may cause a crisis of knowledge. Ergo much as with Christendom jettisoned the fallacious aspects of Aristotelianism it had taken as normative in its thinking, with a whole lot of strife going on in the process, Ardavan may have to jettison its principle of universal anarchy, and adapt its theology to account for binding laws that are the same everywhere. Ergo a period of religious controversy before things are settled. Iralliam as well incidentally has problems it will have to deal with, its not like I'm deluding myself into thinking it would have a perfect run with no controversies whatsoever. Indeed it would be a boring run indeed to not have theological/philosophical controversies.
 
OOC:

I think you're misunderstanding my writing significantly. First off, the fact that observable things exist in the universe isn't contested. But the fact that there are GENERAL rules that are OFTEN followed does not mean that they are always followed. This is true in normal science even without the supernatural perspective; Newtonian mechanics break down at a certain point, etc. etc.

The rules can be broken. One plus one isn't always two if you believe religion. To take an OTL example, the loaves and the fishes is an example of a god breaking math. So, actually, God himself could change 2+3 to equal 23, if you happen to believe scripture, which is my POINT.

Gods break all the rules. So the observable rules of the universe are not hard and fast, if gods exist. The lack of cosmic order is, from the Ardavani perspective, attributable to the fact that lots of gods are squabbling and breaking whatever laws emerged from the primordial Chaos and the the uncaring Heavens. This is why gods are a bad thing.

That is really all I have to say on the matter.
 
OOC: depends on how the "multiplication" occurred. one thing, is not one. A number is an abstract universal principle, a thing has substance and form.

At any rate I think I am getting what your intent was, but I think my objection to the work (as compared to the religious position you have elaborated here) remains valid since it does not necessarily follow that miracles = universal order is a fiction. Indeed if Gods are able to break the rules, that necessarily means that a cosmic order exists no? For rules to be broken there must be rules to break which are binding on everything (save in the ardavani perspective you are presenting, the gods).

Either way, I am taking the Ardavani perspective you have generously explained to mean that it accepts that there is a cosmic order, but that the gods can break it (and thus there is "anarchy" in a theoretical sense). Your explanation makes the whole thing much more reasonable and I of course accept it.
 
Orders were sent at some point last night.
 
For the record, I'm not taking new orders at this point, though minor addendums can be added for a short while.
 
On that account: Please tell me if you have any questions about my orders. I think I was clear in them but you never know about those things.
 
If you don't understand my orders then I guess I'm screwed, because I won't be answering questions. As far as I'm concerned, those orders were transcribed as if they came from the mouth of Opporia.
 
I would fear misunderstanding more than lack of understanding.

I have full faith in NK's abilities.

(I will be much more active on #nes this week)
 
The True/False Prophet
562 RM

Esrath knew she looked as the High Oracle should. Half-moon mask, black and white, spotless red robe pure as blood. Behind her, the handle of her longsword felt comforting against the nape of her neck, as it always had. The only friend she would ever need in this world.

The Altexid Chamber was bathed in light. Eight windows of clear, pure glass ringed the chamber, at the peak of the tower accessible only from the hidden tunnels within the Mountain. The High Oracle's private dominion. He came before her, garbed in a white robe covering his whole body. Pinned to his robe on each side of his chest fluttered two long prayer-scrolls, painted in Satar symbols in the Oracle's own blood. All of his followers had taken to doing it.

Zalkephis.

"It is so good to see you, sister," said the man. "How is dear Sarcena?" The High Oracle did not respond at the mention of her mother's name. "She speaks to me at night. She will return to us, soon..."

"Spirits do not return from the dead," said the High Oracle flatly. "And your visions are false."

"Oh but they do, sister. The Aitah returns. And we have so much to learn from them, even in their evil. We can turn their weapons against them."

She shook her head. "Listen to yourself. Learning from the devil."

He stepped forward. "Why did you invite me here, all alone? Your kephali, your avethai...where are they?" His eyes widened behind his mask in mock-astonishment.

"I wanted to give you a chance to recant, Zalkephis," she said flatly.

He took another step forward, almost close enough to touch the blood-red folds of her robe. "Yes, a chance. Taleldil has given all of us a chance. How long have these so-called Princes bled the people of the land? For ten years, ten years they have killed us, for nothing. For their meaningless golden mask." He laughed sarcastically.

"You seek peace, then?" she said, finally.

"Peace! Peace, peace...I seek peace, yes. These princes must fall. All of them. They must fall and the world must be remade around the pure of spirit."

"That is your solution to this war, then. Kill all the princes."

"It is the only solution."

She stood, facing him. He was quite tall. "They said you were a healer, and that you spoke with Taleldil's own voice. I invited you here, alone, to see if your words were true. But now, I see. I speak with a madman."

She drew her longsword with a slow scrape. It was not a woman's weapon, but it had become her true love over the years. It would never lie to her, cheat her, or betray her.

"Oh sister," he said at last, shaking his head. "You cannot kill me. Taleldil has shown me His Gaze. I will return again, and again, until His Will is done. Until the Earth is prepared for His Return."

"Then I will send you to rejoin the Aitah you so admire," she spat, and lunged forwards with a duelist's precision.

He dodged her first thrust, and parried her second with a long knife he had hidden under his robe. They circled each other, red robe and white. "Battle-challenge," he said. "You wanted this, didn't you?" He laughed. "IT IS AS IT SHOULD BE!"

And their blades clashed again.

---

Esrath opened her eyes, gasping for breath.

"Again, mistress?" said her body-slave Mecci, who had been sitting by the fire. "The white one?"

"He sends me these visions to taunt me."

"You think he possesses such craft?"

"Oh yes...he is who he claims to be, this Zalkephis. And that is what makes him so dangerous."

She stood, stretching her back and staring at the horizon beyond the treeline, hearing the soft sounds of the sleeping forest around them where they were encamped. It was false dawn.

"He knows we are coming for him."
 
Excerpts from Important Historical Documents

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That Laenas-ta-Nintai shall henceforth be known as Laenas-ta-Vaxalai, and that the Prince of the Wind be known and acclaimed as the Redeemer by all of the Princes of the world, and rendered tribute appropriate to his great exatas.

That Varexis-ta-Ixis, the Prince of the Scroll, shall retain his title of High Prince, and be recognized as having authority beyond and above lesser princes, and furthermore be considered to be sovereign master and Letoratta of the sea.

That Aphas-ta-Alusille, the Prince of the Shield, shall also retain his title of High Prince, and be recognized as having authority beyond and above lesser princes, and furthermore be considered to be the Tarkan-ha of the Redeemer, and chief master of his horse.

That in all times henceforth, the High Oracle of Siaxis be known and dignified by all the Princes of the world as possessing the sole authority of acclamation as the Augur of Taleldil, and that none shall take the Golden Mask that are not so acclaimed. And that the High Oracle of Siaxis will acclaim the Redeemer based on exatas, as has been our ancient custom.

And furthermore, if any so adorns himself with the mask and title of Redeemer without being so acclaimed by the High Oracle, that all the Princes of the world, and all those of their tribes forevermore, shall consider themselves bound to join together in opposing that man, in casting him down, in unmasking him in shame, and in casting his body into the sea where his spirit shall know no Heaven.

That the High Oracle will instruct the Oracles and kephalai [monastic leaders] of all the lands of the world to be loyal to those princes of their land that have exatas and respect the codes of the Vedai and the rites of the Ardavai, and render unto them a tribute no less than half of their surplus. And that the High Oracle will instruct the Oracles and kephalai of all the lands of the world not to intrigue against their princes, nor to accept emissaries from the princes of foreign lands, nor to make war against those princes that honor these codes.

-The Treaty of Siaxis, otherwise known as the Ephexashai-ta-Matshav, the Treaty of the Three Wolves. Or simply the Matshav. (c. 563 RM)

Historian's Notes: While the Matshav professed to preserve the unity of the Karapeshai Exatai by ending the War of the Broken Shield, the decentralizing compromises it presented (namely, the Princes of the Scroll and Shield becoming perpetual High Princes) resulted in a rift that could not be healed, after it became clear that Atracta and Nintai would never accept being ruled by the other but with brute force. The Talephas-Sianai and Elikas-Ien rivalries were but a foreshadowing for the final break, of which this is a harbinger.

Despite the metaphorical (and later, literal) fracturing of the Vedai Satar into multiple exatai, the nominal fiction of one exatai was maintained by only one Ardavani Prince (with the important exception of the Telha, who are generally not considered Vedai Satar) retaining the title of Redeemer. Despite this the title lacked the concrete authority that it had represented before the War of the Broken Shield, as leaders of independent exatai would continue to style themselves High Prince and send the Redeemer only nominal tribute. Sianai's rebellion demonstrated that it was possible (if difficult) to make war on a sitting Redeemer for legitimate reasons, and the exatai was never really the same.

The other effect of this declaration was to greatly enhance the authority and independence of the High Oracle by elevating his or her position as the sole source of the title of Redeemer. Even as the actual authority of the title over the independent exatai faded, the glory of possessing the title meant that many princes would curry favor with Siaxis, who for their part would sometimes strategically deploy the enmasking as a rebuke to princes that snubbed them by choosing a rival.

Actually challenging the authority of the High Oracle and declaring oneself a Redeemer without their backing never occurred due to the massive risk it presented; even the legendarily proud Taracis the Cruel backed down when Siaxis refused his demand for acclamation, to avoid losing domestic monastic support. In the wake of the subsequent mass devastation of the Zalkephic Prophecy, all Vedai princes had an equal interest in keeping the authority of the High Oracle intact as a bulwark against domestic insurrection, not to mention the steady tax revenues they were assured by the Matshav.


---

Taleldil lived. Taleldil lives. Taleldil will return.

As day passes to night and again to day, life passes to death and again to life.

There are many Zalkephai, and one Zalkephis. Taleldil has freed his spirit from the cycle of life and death. He is the one sent to oppose the Evil Ones. He is the one who has Seen the Gaze. He is the True Prophet of Taleldil. He is the Final Oracle.

He will become known among you by signs. Death cannot dissuade him.

All but the Oracles shall cast their masks of metal aside and wear masks of reeds alone, for all are sons and daughters of Taleldil.

To the pure of spirit you will show kindness and charity. To the corrupted you will show destruction, and fear not death.

Those who are slaves shall become free, and those who are free shall become slaves.

On the day that the pure of spirit have become perfect, Taleldil will Return.

The Return of Taleldil will break the cycle of life and death, and end the War in Heaven. Heaven and Earth will become one, and the pure of spirit will live forever, while the spirits of the corrupted will be obliterated into nothingness.

Taleldil lived. Taleldil lives. Taleldil will return.

-Early Zalkephic Creed (c. 600 RM)

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"The arrival of a Zalkephic Oracle is likened in some quarters to the arrival of a great earthquake or a flood, with respect to the effect it has on the population and the princes of the realm. For even in their grievous error they place fire into the eyes and livers of the lowest people of the countryside, and convince them that, in truth, if they but rise against their masters and bring about the land of pure spirits that is prophesied, all their worldly ills will be healed..."

Caracenis-ta-Atracta, The Peoples of Ephis (c. 750 RM)

Historian's Note: Educated Satar of this time generally believe that the liver makes the blood, (they were close,) and so one's liver is the source of angry emotions and hot passion, as the heart is the source of tender emotions and the brain the source of abstract thought.
 
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