England

[Gazebo]

Completed a game as England recently. Forget the Longbowmen and its often ineffective range thanks to terrain features. The SotL are probably the most insane UU in the game.

Admittedly in the game I played, all the enemy capitals were coastal cities. However, I find that the unbridled power of the English navy is potentially game-breaking, considering I dominated both land AND sea using the ships alone. What happened was I finished military academy, spammed SotL which could by then be built in one or two turns (internal trade routes may have helped), conquered my whole continent, and then mass-upgraded to cruisers to take on the other continent, where civs like Babylon and Korea were about 10% ahead in literacy.

When the Battleship upgrade came, indirect fire plus the range promotion and logistics allowed me to wipe the entire land army of opposing civs (and the entire world was at war with me). This was in 3/9 where garrisoned units were immortal too. The power was such that I needed to build no new Battleships, only Destroyers, because the SotL turned Battleships have the power to wipe land armies like a normal Battleship can't.

I think that it might not have broken the game if the Ironclad line also needed iron (and the whole point of the ironclad warships was that they had iron armor anyway). Instead, the iron requirement came too late at Missile Cruiser, by which point you probably have already won the game with your Cruiser/Ironclad composition. Therefore you can have near unlimited navy in this game. The fact that naval units are stronger than land units due to mobility notwithstanding, they are not any harder to produce.

~Rule Britannia, Britannia rules the waves~

I did mention that I'm a British Historian, didn't I?

G

 

[TruthfulCake]

It rules way too hard. Like it is basically their shtick, but...

Logistics is a ridiculous promotion on a unit that is guaranteed extra movement by virtue of being British. With Imperialism, and if you are lucky Great Lighthouse, it is unstoppable. It is not just doubling the firepower, it also allows you to hit and run in ways that vanilla keshiks and camel archers can't (additional hit and hit as a powerful alternative, availability once unit is upgraded, possibility to bypass obstacles with indirect fire).

I think you made the SotL weaker than the average frigate in combat strength to make up for this, but once it is upgraded, it is just a massively overpowered Cruiser. And then a game-breaking Battleship. Without gimping the logistics promotion itself, it will remain overpowered. I mean even if logistics halves the firepower of the SotL compared to a Frigate, it would still be more powerful because of the options in-between attacks that synergizes so well with mobility.

The steam mill is wonderful. The extra spy is helpful. The general navy superiority is powerful. The SotL is ridiculous.

 

[Gazebo]

It rules way too hard. Like it is basically their shtick, but...

Logistics is a ridiculous promotion on a unit that is guaranteed extra movement by virtue of being British. With Imperialism, and if you are lucky Great Lighthouse, it is unstoppable. It is not just doubling the firepower, it also allows you to hit and run in ways that vanilla keshiks and camel archers can't (additional hit and hit as a powerful alternative, availability once unit is upgraded, possibility to bypass obstacles with indirect fire).

I think you made the SotL weaker than the average frigate in combat strength to make up for this, but once it is upgraded, it is just a massively overpowered Cruiser. And then a game-breaking Battleship. Without gimping the logistics promotion itself, it will remain overpowered. I mean even if logistics halves the firepower of the SotL compared to a Frigate, it would still be more powerful because of the options in-between attacks that synergizes so well with mobility.

The steam mill is wonderful. The extra spy is helpful. The general navy superiority is powerful. The SotL is ridiculous.

I thought we integrated a change last year that cut movement after shooting once?
G

 

[Funak]

~Rule Britannia, Britannia rules the waves~

I did mention that I'm a British Historian, didn't I?

G

Should really change the name of the English UA to that


On the topic of the SotL, yes it is fairly powerful, but so is all frigates, really. The SotL loses out on 5 RCS for its promotion, which is fairly in line with most other UUs that start out of logistics, so I don't really see it as an issue.

The most likely issue you're having in your game is that the English UA makes the SotL seems even better than it is, the English UA is REALLY good at what it does, but it is extremely limited to maptype. In general I think the whole thing is fine.

 

[Atlas627]

I agree with Funak.

 

[Funak]

I agree with Funak.

About what?

And also, no you don't

 

[Gazebo]

I agree with Funak.

And I.

Enjoy this, Funak. Relish in it.

G

 

[TruthfulCake]

Isn't it the case that the 5 RCS penalty only given to the SotL and not the logistics promotion in general? Doesn't that mean that once upgraded into Cruisers it will just be a more-than-twice-as-powerful Cruisers?

I get the 5 RCS penalty on the unit. But it does not stop the crazy logistics navy, especially since the SotL doesn't obsolete, and the Imperialism tree allows for really cheap upgrades into Cruisers and Battleships anyway.

And other UUs with the logistics promotion probably don't serve as much purpose as the ranged naval unit (Chu-ko-nus can't attack naval units well, for example, and are much more vulnerable thanks to mobility issues). This doesn't change even after getting upgraded into Machine Guns.

I think that saying "it's only strong on the right map" doesn't make it balanced. I mean a lot of people say that for vanilla Spain, and that certainly doesn't make Spain balanced. Except that instead of vacillating between very bad/very broken, the English has a narrower spectrum of being good/broken.

 

[IcyAngel]

Let us keep in mind that the AI does not benefit from naval bonuses nearly as much as human.
It appears to be a consensus that AI England is among the weakest, both because of the aforementioned issue and the late UB. Balance has to be handled carefully in this case.

Replacing logistics could be a start. It adds difficult choices for the AI: who to target, the movement between attacks, etc. Don't count on me for actual ideas, though!

(I agree that logistics itself isn't particularly OP though. It comes early enough to be obtained by virtually any navy after minimal battling anyway.)

 

[Funak]

Isn't it the case that the 5 RCS penalty only given to the SotL and not the logistics promotion in general? Doesn't that mean that once upgraded into Cruisers it will just be a more-than-twice-as-powerful Cruisers?

I get the 5 RCS penalty on the unit. But it does not stop the crazy logistics navy, especially since the SotL doesn't obsolete, and the Imperialism tree allows for really cheap upgrades into Cruisers and Battleships anyway.

And other UUs with the logistics promotion probably don't serve as much purpose as the ranged naval unit (Chu-ko-nus can't attack naval units well, for example, and are much more vulnerable thanks to mobility issues). This doesn't change even after getting upgraded into Machine Guns.

I think that saying "it's only strong on the right map" doesn't make it balanced. I mean a lot of people say that for vanilla Spain, and that certainly doesn't make Spain balanced. Except that instead of vacillating between very bad/very broken, the English has a narrower spectrum of being good/broken.

Logistics is in the same situation for all other unique units, the upgraded units have doesn't suffer from the penalties.

I'm aware that the chu-ko-nu and the Slinger aren't exactly top-tier unit-lines, but I don't feel the same way about the Hwach'a, it upgrades into logistics cannon and eventually logistics artillery, imho just as good as the SotL if not better considering it is useful on all map-types.

It is true that England have a huge advantage on naval maps, but it's really more due to their UA than their UU, 7+ movement ironclads and 6+ movement frigates would be powerful for any civ.

In fact I actually dare you to try and build a fleet as England pre-SotL and i guarantee you that you're going to reach logistics an your ranged ships and kick just as much butt as you do with the SotL.

 

[TruthfulCake]

Logistics is in the same situation for all other unique units, the upgraded units have doesn't suffer from the penalties.

I'm aware that the chu-ko-nu and the Slinger aren't exactly top-tier unit-lines, but I don't feel the same way about the Hwach'a, it upgrades into logistics cannon and eventually logistics artillery, imho just as good as the SotL if not better considering it is useful on all map-types.

It is true that England have a huge advantage on naval maps, but it's really more due to their UA than their UU, 7+ movement ironclads and 6+ movement frigates would be powerful for any civ.

In fact I actually dare you to try and build a fleet as England pre-SotL and i guarantee you that you're going to reach logistics an your ranged ships and kick just as much butt as you do with the SotL.

Fair enough. Logistics is a level 4 unlock, though, right? Well I guess having a 1-level head start and 2-3 points more movement than your opponents aren't too game-breaking.

But about the blitz artillery - it can't be better than the ranged naval units line simply because mobility is too much of an issue. I like the Hwach'a though - it is fine the way it is. Also, logistics battleships pretty much destroy cities even if they are not coastal - 4 range indirect fire reaches really far.

 

[Funak]

Fair enough. Logistics is a level 4 unlock, though, right? Well I guess having a 1-level head start and 2-3 points more movement than your opponents aren't too game-breaking.

Think it requires level 3 <choose your promotion> and Range,

But about the blitz artillery - it can't be better than the ranged naval units line simply because mobility is too much of an issue. I like the Hwach'a though - it is fine the way it is. Also, logistics battleships pretty much destroy cities even if they are not coastal - 4 range indirect fire reaches really far.

Well, imagine if korea had an UA that gave all their siegeweapons and horse-units an extra 2 movement, that's pretty much what you're dealing with when you're playing England. The SotL might be good, but it's the UA that's really nuts.

Again I really don't think they need a nerf anyways, the fact that they are terrible at land-based maps is already a pretty hard counter, and I honestly don't even know if I'd consider them better than for example Denmark at heavy water maps.

 

[TruthfulCake]

True, Korea would be overwhelming with highly mobile blitz artillery units. That said, it is precisely because they aren't highly mobile that they aren't ludicrous. If the UA makes naval units nuts, I wonder if the SotL should be that good.

That said, I concede that it probably does not need much nerf if at all when I consider other civs to be able to field similar bonuses (slightly delayed) with building military academy and unlocking Imperialism (and/or snatching Great Lighthouse).

But no, England is not terrible in pangaea maps either. They are a slow starter, but their bonuses are significant. And the battleships act as good support for land armies as well, even though the enemy cities may not be in the immediate coast. 3~ range, mobility, and indirect fire units are strong even if all cities are landlocked. Not that I am complaining though. They are not vanilla Spain, which is great.

 

[Gazebo]

True, Korea would be overwhelming with highly mobile blitz artillery units. That said, it is precisely because they aren't highly mobile that they aren't ludicrous. If the UA makes naval units nuts, I wonder if the SotL should be that good.

That said, I concede that it probably does not need much nerf if at all when I consider other civs to be able to field similar bonuses (slightly delayed) with building military academy and unlocking Imperialism (and/or snatching Great Lighthouse).

But no, England is not terrible in pangaea maps either. They are a slow starter, but their bonuses are significant. And the battleships act as good support for land armies as well, even though the enemy cities may not be in the immediate coast. 3~ range, mobility, and indirect fire units are strong even if all cities are landlocked. Not that I am complaining though. They are not vanilla Spain, which is great.

Aside from a good late-game production bonuses with the Steam Mill, controlling the oceans is pretty much all England has, truth be told.

G

 

[TruthfulCake]

Aside from a good late-game production bonuses with the Steam Mill, controlling the oceans is pretty much all England has, truth be told.

G

Do you think that England is underpowered in the wrong circumstances then? I am currently of the opinion that the early, resource-free factories and the extra spy somewhat give England a significant edge that compensates for the late-ness.

If you believe that England is bad without navy, and if people find that naval England is overwhelming, then wouldn't it be best to make the civ a little more balanced, like how you reworked Spain? I'm not sure if England is bad on pangaea maps though; merely it pales in comparison to England on a continents/small continents map.

 

[Atlas627]

I just find England boring as all hell until Industrial. Basically playing with no uniques. And the uniques are also so flexible that I have no reason to adopt any particular playstyle before then either.

Its a good thing they exist though. SOME civ needs to be the ultra-flexible late-game monster. Its just not my style.

 

[Funak]

I've played maybe 5 games as England since the steam-mill got nerfed and I just find them extremely boring now. They were playable on the maps I play on before but now they are pretty much just dead weight, either forcing restarts or just getting wiped out.
That being said it's not like the AI England weren't getting wiped before the Steam-mill change, but at least I actually felt like playing them back then.

 

[Atlas627]

I've played maybe 5 games as England since the steam-mill got nerfed and I just find them extremely boring now. They were playable on the maps I play on before but now they are pretty much just dead weight, either forcing restarts or just getting wiped out.
That being said it's not like the AI England weren't getting wiped before the Steam-mill change, but at least I actually felt like playing them back then.

Yeah I didn't see the need for the nerf without compensation. The Steam Mill was exciting enough to keep me anticipating it all game, but now its only marginally better than Factories.

Personally I would like to see a change that makes their early game interesting but still flexible. How about +2 gold on naval CS trade routes? Gives them more reason to settle coast, gives them a diplomatic option which is the only thing they're missing, and represents mercantilism/imperialism.

 

[Funak]

Yeah I didn't see the need for the nerf without compensation. The Steam Mill was exciting enough to keep me anticipating it all game, but now its only marginally better than Factories.

Personally I would like to see a change that makes their early game interesting but still flexible. How about +2 gold on naval CS trade routes? Gives them more reason to settle coast, gives them a diplomatic option which is the only thing they're missing, and represents mercantilism/imperialism.

I really don't want more ways to punish them for getting landlocked (which seems to happen more often than not)

I do however feel like the Steam mill should be brought back up to old levels, it really wasn't better than other unique buildings from the same era.

 

[Gazebo]

I've played maybe 5 games as England since the steam-mill got nerfed and I just find them extremely boring now. They were playable on the maps I play on before but now they are pretty much just dead weight, either forcing restarts or just getting wiped out.
That being said it's not like the AI England weren't getting wiped before the Steam-mill change, but at least I actually felt like playing them back then.

It's getting a small buff, actually.

G