[BNW] Enjoyable Deity Games

[Nizef]

Here is a recap of the games in the Enjoyable Deity Games Experience (EDGE) series so far (at the end of 2019):

1. Korea (Pangaea, Standard speed, Standard size, Unmodded)
2. the Shoshone (Pangaea, Standard speed, Standard size, Modded with RAS)
3. America (Pangaea, Standard speed, Standard size, Unmodded)
4. Denmark (Continents, Standard speed, Standard size, Unmodded)
5. Byzantium (Fractal, Standard speed, Standard size, Modded with RAS)
6. Germany (Pangaea, Standard speed, Standard size, Unmodded)
7. Polynesia (Small Continents Plus, Standard speed, Standard size, Unmodded)
8. Brazil (Continents, Standard speed, Large size, Modded with RAS)
9. Mongolia (Pangaea, Epic speed, Standard size, Unmodded)
10. Spain (Terra, Standard speed, Large size, Modded with RAS)
11. Carthage (Continents, Standard speed, Standard size, Modded with RAS)
12. the Aztecs (Lakes, Epic speed, Standard size, Unmodded)
13. England (Continents, Standard speed, Standard size, Modded with RAS)
14. Korea 2 (Small Continents, Standard speed, Standard size, Modded with RAS)
15. Venice (Fractal, Epic speed, Standard size, Modded with RAS)
16. Egypt (Pangaea, Standard speed, Standard size, Modded with RAS)
17. the Huns (Oval, Standard speed, Standard size, Modded with RAS)
18. Japan (Hellblazers Pangaea, Standard speed, Standard size, Modded both with RAS and Hellblazers map script)
19. China (Pangaea, Epic speed, Standard size, Modded with RAS)
20. Babylon (Hellblazers Pangaea, Standard speed, Standard size, Modded both with RAS and Hellblazers map script)
21. Polynesia 2 (Hellblazers Pangaea, Standard speed, Standard size, Modded both with RAS and Hellblazers map script)
22. Korea 3 (Hellblazers Pangaea, Standard speed, Standard size, Modded both with RAS and Hellblazers map script)
23. Russia (Hellblazers Pangaea, Standard speed, Standard size, Modded both with RAS and Hellblazers map script)
24. Portugal (Pangaea, Standard speed, Standard size, Modded with RAS)
25. France (Lakes, Epic speed, Standard size, Unmodded)
26. Germany 2 (Lakes, Epic speed, Standard size, Unmodded)
27. England 2 (Fractal, Standard speed, Standard size, Modded with RAS)
28. Sweden (Fractal, Standard speed, Standard size, Unmodded)
29. Arabia (Sandstorm, Standard speed, Standard size, Unmodded)
30. the Mayas (Tectonics map, Standard speed, Standard size, Modded with both RAS and the Tectonics map template)
31. Ethiopia (Pangaea, Standard speed, Standard size, Unmodded)
32. Assyria (Pangaea, Standard speed, Standard size, Unmodded)
33. Poland (Fractal, Standard speed, Standard size, Modded with RAS)
34. India (Pangaea, Standard speed, Small size, Modded with RAS)
35. the Aztecs 2 (Hellblazers Pangaea, Standard speed, Standard size, Modded with Hellblazers map script)
36. Morocco (Sandstorm, Epic speed, Standard size, Unmodded)
37. Babylon 2 (Large Islands, Standard speed, Standard size, Unmodded)
38. Spain 2 (Inland Sea, Standard speed, Standard size, Unmodded)
39. Greece (Fractal, Epic speed, Standard size, Unmodded)
40. Carthage 2 (Fractal, Epic speed, Standard size, Unmodded)
41. Indonesia (Archipelago, Epic speed, Standard size, Unmodded).

 

[Nizef]

With this post, I am not trying to rewrite history nor to stand on anybody´s toes, just as a disclaimer. But I wanted to share my own take on this slightly vague concept of tall and wide. So here we go:

1 city = OCC (One City Challenge)
2 cities = TCC (Two City Challenge)
3-5 cities = Tall
6-10 cities = Semi-Wide
11-20 cities = Wide
21-50 cities = Very Wide
51-100 cities = Ridiculously Wide
101+ cities = Beyond Ridiculously Wide (I was tempted to call it "ZVS" ->The Zenmaster-Vadalaz-Syndrome, but they might have been upset with this suggestion).

What do you think?

 

[Nizef]

EDGE #42: Piety Challenge
Given the lack of response, I will probably not be uploading a lot to this series in the future. I am definitely not pointing fingers nor am I disappointed. Mostly it proves that there is a very limited demand for this. Anyway, I still wanted to give this thread a new addition and this time it is a tough nut to crack. You will play as the Mayans on an unmodded Pangaea map with Standard speed and Standard size. QC and QM are turned on and all VCs are enabled as usual. But this time there are some self-imposed limitations to take into account. My idea with this is that you have to open Piety first and you will have to finish Piety with your nineth social policy at the latest. The idea behind this is to make a Piety challenge a little less impossible, after all, the rules will allow for taking three points in another (or several) policy tree(s) during the early game. As you can see the starting location is good and there are some nice possibilities along the road as you scout around, but this is by no means easy. As a benchmark, I failed my first attempt. Enjoy the early pain!

 

[KingVercingetorix]

Given the lack of response, I will probably not be uploading a lot to this series in the future.

You have put a lot of effort into this thread and I'm very appreciative of that, I'm sure others are too. I have read every post on here just haven't contributed much at all. This may be becasue I'm rather particular in the games I choose to play. I stick to Pangaea maps most of the time. Great Plains is fine and occasionally Lakes are okay. Standard speed, standard size is a must for me personally. Although EDGE 7 was a water map it was Polynesia and I was following a certain strategy so I was happy to play. I'm not a fan of modded maps so that chalks off a lot of the EDGE maps. I also tend to pick a civ depending on what strategies I'm reading. I played EDGE 7 while reading a writeup from Manpanzee and was excited to try it out.

EDGE 42 piqued my interest because I've been looking at a few Mayan strategies recently. Also because it is a challenge with a certain rule set that makes it more interesting. I think it could be a good idea if you include your write up of the game as a spoiler. You could have the spoilers separated by number of turns or key milestones from the game. This adds a little competition to the game and can also show us which strategies may work better. Did you reach Education faster than me? Is an early war better than turtling? Which social policies are best for this particular map?

Onto EDGE 42. I have played up until Education. The game has gone smoothly so far but I sense impending doom.

Spoiler :

My tech path: Mining, Pottery, AH, The Wheel, Masonry, Sailing, Writing, Philosophy, Theology, Education. I was able to delay Trapping until after Theology thanks to FoY. I got BW early from a ruin but would have researched it before Masonry most likely.

Build Order: scout, monument, start worker, buy scout, shrine, finish worker, start caravan, settler, finish caravan, another caravan, three more settlers, granary, water mill, library, temple, start Borobudur, rush NC, finish Borobudur, garden, buy university with faith, start market.

Expos started with shrine, (Ancestor Worship/nerfed monument) library, water mill, moument, granary, temple, wonders (Oracle/Pyramids), stable, garden. That is a rough rundown. There may have been a few variations. I never pick Ancestor Worship but on this occasion I think it worked well. Delaying monuments meant I could build more infrastructure. Chopping forests was really important in this game.

Culture has been good. Had some cultural friends and have been allied with Kuala Lumpar for a good 50 turns. I was able to found a religion on turn 76. Tithe, Feed the World. Theology on turn 81. My first great person was an engineer for the NC which I finished on turn 87. Pyramids in Tikal on turn 91 (quest, may help with future war), Borobudur and Oracle (Uxmal) both on turn 96. I chose a scientist on my turn 101 great person and was able to reach Education on turn 104. Somewhere in the mid 90s I was able to enhance. I went for Choral Music and Missionary Zeal. I reformed with Oracle and picked Jesuit Education. Really surprised The Inca didn't pick it, he usually does.

4 cities is not enough and my overall population is too small. Going to have to war Dido sooner rather than later. She has been a pain all game. Wasn't able to get workers from her until turn 30. I tried something new and sold her a city I settled near her lands on some dyes. She gave me 40gpt for the city. Not bad. Unfortunately I spent that bribing her not to attack me. Scouting has been awful. City states have been bought by Venice or conquered. I was thinking of an SV but I think a CV may be more appropriate.

Difficult map and I have been too greedy with wonders. Depending how challenging Carthage is I may give it another try. Less empire building and more unit production. Going to have a break for a while as I played up to Education in one sitting.

Current "Empire"



Social Policies



Opened Piety on turn 5 thanks to a ruin. Then went for Republic, Citizenship, Reformation, Mandate of Heaven. After Piety I'll have to go for Secularism. Hopefully I can squeeze Representation in before ideologies.

 

[Nizef]

You have put a lot of effort into this thread and I'm very appreciative of that, I'm sure others are too. I have read every post on here just haven't contributed much at all. This may be becasue I'm rather particular in the games I choose to play. I stick to Pangaea maps most of the time. Great Plains is fine and occasionally Lakes are okay. Standard speed, standard size is a must for me personally. Although EDGE 7 was a water map it was Polynesia and I was following a certain strategy so I was happy to play. I'm not a fan of modded maps so that chalks off a lot of the EDGE maps. I also tend to pick a civ depending on what strategies I'm reading. I played EDGE 7 while reading a writeup from Manpanzee and was excited to try it out.

EDGE 42 piqued my interest because I've been looking at a few Mayan strategies recently. Also because it is a challenge with a certain rule set that makes it more interesting. I think it could be a good idea if you include your write up of the game as a spoiler. You could have the spoilers separated by number of turns or key milestones from the game. This adds a little competition to the game and can also show us which strategies may work better. Did you reach Education faster than me? Is an early war better than turtling? Which social policies are best for this particular map?

Onto EDGE 42. I have played up until Education. The game has gone smoothly so far but I sense impending doom.

Spoiler :

My tech path: Mining, Pottery, AH, The Wheel, Masonry, Sailing, Writing, Philosophy, Theology, Education. I was able to delay Trapping until after Theology thanks to FoY. I got BW early from a ruin but would have researched it before Masonry most likely.

Build Order: scout, monument, start worker, buy scout, shrine, finish worker, start caravan, settler, finish caravan, another caravan, three more settlers, granary, water mill, library, temple, start Borobudur, rush NC, finish Borobudur, garden, buy university with faith, start market.

Opened Piety on turn 5 thanks to a ruin. Then went for Republic, Citizenship, Reformation, Mandate of Heaven. After Piety I'll have to go for Secularism. Hopefully I can squeeze Representation in before ideologies.

Thank you for you encouraging words. Unmodded Standard/Standard is something I am happy to work on. Basically my thought process so far has been that some of the games should be a little easier than Standard Diety (for example I have used a modded start for a nearby NW or Epic speed to secure easier offensive warfare etc). This has reflected my own skill level, but maybe it is time to try some tougher settings (as already done in EDGE42). You are welcome to give a hint about civs you would like to play. On my own work list I have, for the moment, Russia, Siam, the Aztecs and the Celts.

About my first try: not much to say really, I knew who my neighbours were but I still went for Philosophy before Construction. A very nasty carpet of doom appeared on my borders on t55. The end. I am playing it again at the moment though.

 

[KingVercingetorix]

You are welcome to give a hint about civs you would like to play. On my own work list I have, for the moment, Russia, Siam, the Aztecs and the Celts.

I've never had a proper go with Siam but I think he has a lot of potential. Definitely one I would like to try. Aztecs would be my second choice.

I knew who my neighbours were but I still went for Philosophy before Construction. A very nasty carpet of doom appeared on my borders on t55.

Spoiler :

In my game I haven't even researched Construction. I'm going to have to rely on FoY unique promoted pikemen plus city defence to hold off Dido. My turn 117 Mayan GP could be a GG. A well placed citadel could be useful. So far money has been my only way to stop her killing me but I'm nearly out. 20 turns ago I was +70gpt during a GA. Dido is the biggest b****, I should have known better and built an army. I'm going to tech Gunpowder and Chemistry. I see no other way of taking her out.

 

[Nizef]

I've never had a proper go with Siam but I think he has a lot of potential. Definitely one I would like to try. Aztecs would be my second choice.

Spoiler :

In my game I haven't even researched Construction. I'm going to have to rely on FoY unique promoted pikemen plus city defence to hold off Dido. My turn 117 Mayan GP could be a GG. A well placed citadel could be useful. So far money has been my only way to stop her killing me but I'm nearly out. 20 turns ago I was +70gpt during a GA. Dido is the biggest b****, I should have known better and built an army. I'm going to tech Gunpowder and Chemistry. I see no other way of taking her out.

My second try is at t125 at moment. I have researched Education, Chivalry and Machinery an I will upgrade my CBs next. This time I managed to bribe her, but that meant that the green guy went down in a few turns and then I had to divert her towards the yellow guy. Religion reformed with JE. Four cities at the moment but only pop11-9-6-4 and bought 3 Unis with faith. SP: full Piety and Tradition 2.

Update on t175: Pop 20-15-9-9. SP: I took both Aestethics and Rationalism opener. I have a slightly uncomfortable DoF with Dido. She is ally with most CS and she is killing the yellow guy at the moment. I went on a short wonderwhoring spree and managed LToP (t138), SC (t144) and Uffizi (t167). Reached Industrial on t171 - not impressive.

 

[Nizef]

Final update on t228. I am still stuck on 4 cities while Dido has 28. We are down to 4 AIs and it seems like the lady in red is running away in the tech count. I can´t possibly see a winning way forward here. Good to know that the strategic resources offer at least a minimum of Coal, Aluminium and Oil. Basically, I should have gone for only three good cities myself and then gone to war early. That would have changed the game significantly.

 

[Nizef]

EDGE#43: Some help from the little ones
After the feedback from KingVercingetorix, I decided to add another game to this series. This time the task is to play as Siam on an unmodded Pangaea map with Standard size and speed. QC and QM are turned on and all VCs are enabled as usual. There is only one self-imposed rule, you have to take at least 3 points in Patronage. I was considering that we should have to fill out the entire tree, but the map turned out to be quite challenging and thus I decided that 3 points are enough. As a benchmark I took four points myself, but I took the powerful Scholasticism much too late. The starting location is kind of nice and the closest neighbour is nice. Enjoy the start, because it might get worse over time, ha-ha!

EDIT: I played in accordance to HOF rules and actually submitted my game.

As suggested I will tell about my own game using a spoiler:

Spoiler :

In my game I settled on t1, two tiles to the S. At the time it looked better than SIP. After the game I have to admit that this was not better. Started with Scout-Scout-Shrine-Granary. Ruins were Barbs-Culture-Gold-Unit Upgrade-Map-Faith. This was an unusual start in the sense that after meeting Jerusalem early, I actually got the FIRST pantheon and the faith ruin came after this, so it gave me 60 faith and helped me getting the second religion (Tithe/Pagodas). I also managed to ally Jerusalem and that gave me a fast development of my religion: Missionary+Pagoda in capital before enhancing with Monasteries and IP. 3 city NC on t82 but I had the next settler ready and founded Lampang on the same turn.

I didn´t play particularly well in the midgame. I reached Education on t111 but my cities were developing slowly and I had to skip the wonders and push hard in tech. It took me until t171 to reach Industrial (3rd or 4th to it) but there was an uneasy feeling of doom over the whole game. I was playing too defensively and should have expanded more up N. But forgive me for not being too keen on forwardsettling Mongolia... Not expanding reduced the strategic resources to a minimum (or actually much below that!) When I was ready to take on Mongolia it was too late because France was conquering half the world, including Mongolia. So the only way to win was SV. France was building all the wonders in addition to fighting very effectively. I have rarely seen them doing THIS good.

In the late game I was first to the Modern era, but it was a tight race with France all the way to the finish line on t314. At that time Napoleon had already built CN Tower and SOH and he was on 36 cities and building spaceship parts as well. Thankfully he had some way to go on a CV, since Indonesia had good culture output even if they were beaten up on the battlefield. If I only had taken Scholasticism earlier, I could have shaved off about 15 turns of the finishing time. Late game I had 8 CS allies and France had 2. The rest had been absorbed by the AIs. Some of the CS were absolutely necessary for winning the game since I had no Aluminium nor Oil in my own territory. Siam and Patronage gave me a nice synergy though and with a "normal" empire size of 6-7 cities, this could have been smooth.

SP: full Tradition, Patronage 4, full Rationalism and Order 6.

 

[KingVercingetorix]

I decided to call it quits on the Mayan game.

Spoiler :

I wasn't happy being on only 4 non Tradition cities so thought I'd build an army and take on Dido. This meant instead of going to Scientific Theory I went to Chemistry. But before Chemistry I teched for Astronomy. That was a mistake and I should have focused purely on getting an army out and improving my economy. Didn't really need Observatories at this point.

By around turn 155 I had an army consisting of 6 cannons, 5 musketmen, 2 knights and 4 pikemen. All with the FoY unique promotion. This was enough firepower to take a couple of cities from Dido. Unfortunately I couldn't deal with the unhappiness, especially as Mongolia conquered one of my CS allies and Venice had most CS as their ally.

This was a strange game in that the AI were very slow doing anything. Wonders such as Chichen Itza and LToP were built 20 odd turns later than one would expect. All AI minus Brazil had about 38 techs researched (including me).

I think the best plan for this map is sacrificing the early game by taking out Carthage. Annoying as it means the Mayan UA can't be maximised.

I will give the Siam game a try soon. There are some nice forests chops at the starting location. This time I'll get an army out earlier (if necessary).

 

[Nizef]

Yeah, EDGE42 is really hard. Thank you for trying it out. I remember having read about CDG35 with Alexander where even Acken had to go all the way to Stealth Bombers to win. Maybe this is not that rough, but for sure a very frustrating experience. I am sure you will have a nice journey with Siam, because there are several viable paths to go down.

 

[Nizef]

EDGE#44: No help needed
Here we go again. This time the task is to play as the Shoshone on an unmodded Pangaea map with Standard size and speed. QC and QM are turned on and all VCs are enabled as usual. The starting location is fantastic and there are some natural spots for expands as well. If you are not satisfied with the size of your empire, you can always ask your eastern neighbour if he would like to give some cities to you... No need to say anything else: Salt start with Pocatello! If I could win a SV on t270, better players should shave off at least 40-50 turns, maybe even more.

As in EDGE#43, I played in accordance to HOF rules and also submitted my game.

I will tell about my own game behind this spoiler:

Spoiler :

In my game I settled on on the incense. I started with Pathfinder-Pathfinder-Settlerx2-Granary-Archer-Settler. Ruins were Pop-Culture-Gold-Tech-Pop-Faith. I got the third pantheon and took Earth Mother. It was not a strong option but eventually I got the third or fourth religion and took Tithe/Pagodas. As it turned out it was not very useful since William had a massive religion (with Mosques) so I mostly adopted that one. I built the Oracle on t77 and 4 city NC on t86. I bought the last library to have a natural development.

The midgame went smoothly. I reached Education on t104 and I was actually first into the Renaissance. I can´t recall that that would have happened to me before. Anyway I hard built LToP and used the GE for the Forbidden Palace. I was first also to the Industrial era, which I reached on t156. My four cities were good but as "always" with four cities: finishing with SV is not as fast as if I had had 1-3 cities more. This was peaceful and uneventful.

The endgame was about optimizing for SV, and as usual I did not do a particularly good job with that. The win on t270 was uncontested - the AIs were nowhere close to any form of VC. More interestingly for warmongers: I had a lot of horses, aluminium and uranium. Just as a hint! And a second hint: don´t even think about conquering through naval warfare. The map is not good for that!

SP: full Tradition, Patronage 2, full Rationalism and Order 7.

 

[raider980]

EDGE#44: No help needed
Here we go again. This time the task is to play as the Shoshone on an unmodded Pangaea map with Standard size and speed.

I'm going to give this one a try. I love The Shoshone and that's a great start. Interestingly, the thread below this one is about a different than normal Shoshone strategy, I think I'll give that a try. I don't expect to win but maybe I can survive long enough for a fun game with that strategy.

I can't tell if that's Flood Plains in the starting screenshot. If it is, whew. I'll move the Pathfinder NE to the hill to look around. But I'm sure I'm going to settle on the Incense regardless, I love settling on Plantation resources.

 

[Nizef]

I'm going to give this one a try. I love The Shoshone and that's a great start. Interestingly, the thread below this one is about a different than normal Shoshone strategy, I think I'll give that a try. I don't expect to win but maybe I can survive long enough for a fun game with that strategy.

I can't tell if that's Flood Plains in the starting screenshot. If it is, whew. I'll move the Pathfinder NE to the hill to look around. But I'm sure I'm going to settle on the Incense regardless, I love settling on Plantation resources.

No Flood Plains, unfortunately. It might be useful to go through the Shoshone thread, there are some good suggestions in it. It will be interesting to read where you settled your expansions.

 

[Nizef]

EDGE#45: In the footsteps of King Jan III Sobieski, Honor Challenge
Jan Sobieski was the king of Poland in 1683 at the time of the ottoman siege of Vienna. On September 12th a joint polish-prussian force came to the rescue with 60.000 troops and the siege was over before sunset. That was my thinking behind an honor challenge with Poland. The self-imposed rule is that the honor tree has to be completed with the 12th policy at the latest. The map is an unmodded Pangaea map with Standard size and speed. QC and QM are turned on and all VCs are enabled as usual. The starting location is good and scouting around will mostly please you for sure.

I played in accordance to HOF rules and also submitted my game.

I will tell about my own game behind this spoiler:

Spoiler :

Settled t1 but then I had a strange start, since I could not steal any workers before t27-28. Thus my development was a little slow. 4 city NC on t86 and I reached Education on t107. First expansion was to the west between Venice and Warsaw, second up N on the coast and the third to the S to grab the Spices. Turned out that this was a key location in many ways (both militarily and for resources. BO: Scout x2, Shrine, Settler, Granary, Settler.

The midgame was about warfare. I took Venice with XBs and Trebs and while I was reorganizing, Ramesses attacked me out of the blue. He actually conquered Wroclaw (for one turn) before I could fight back and take both Wroclaw and Heliopolis with Cannons. I stayed at war and took Thebes and Memphis with Artillery. However, on Standard speed I feel that I do not have the time to move the troops around the same way as I have on Epic speed. So war was successful but slow and my production was only average. I had come to a crossroads.

I opted not to continue my warpath and decided the game through a SV on t297. France (again) was very close on a CV (should have needed 12-15 turns to win it). SP: Tradition opener-four points in Honor-finishing both Tradition and Honor-full Rationalism-Commerce opener and 8 points in Order.

 

[raider980]

Shoshone game has been fun so far. They are amazing. Why aren’t they ranked in the top Tier of Civs? I remember that when I play a different Civ after the Shoshone I’m always feeling, “Why do I not have any good tiles? Why’s it taking so long to expand my borders.”.

Spoiler Here's my game through T87. :

I settled on the Incense. It still allowed me to be in range of the two wheats, and with Shoshone, I’d grab them even if in the second (or turns out third) tier!

My build order was Pathfinder>Pathfinder>Worker>Settler>. Turns out I should have waited on the Worker because barbs came knocking quickly and he had to hide in the city.

My first expo was toward William. Not only did I forward settle him, I instantly grabbed two luxes in his 3rd tier. Looking at the location, I should have settled on the other side of the river next to the mountain; but those darn cows are so tempting.

Spoiler I wonder how mad William is going to be :

My third city was on the spice to the south by the inland sea. That allowed me to get a Salt, and who needs to be on the coast of an inland sea. Fourth city was on the western coast on a hill in range of Sugar, Salt, Banana, Horses and Buffalo. I think I’m going to build a fifth city out on the western shore by the 2 Salt, 2 Fish and Buffalo. Probalby not optimal but I don’t want anyone else taking my salt.

Luckily William wasn’t too mad about that forward settle. And I’m friends with Hiawatha and Pedro. Hiawatha is probably going to win the game with his endless city spam but I’m doing much better than I usually do on Deity.

Spoiler Shoshone lands T87 :

 

[Nizef]

Spoiler Shoshone lands T87 :

View attachment 544835

Seems we have very similar locations for cap, 3rd and 4th city. I settled the 2nd city on the copper between the mountains. It was mostly to make absolutely sure that William could not get anything from an attack. Good to read that you like your game so far.

 

[mbbcam]

Jan III Sabietski

In English / Polish it is Jan Sobieski.

 

[Nizef]

In English / Polish it is Jan Sobieski.

Thanks. Changed it. I am reading the book in English by the author Niall Ferguson, but maybe my spelling was off anyway. The "III" was actually in the book though.

 

[mbbcam]

Yeah, it was the spelling of the last name that leaped out at me . I first heard of him from a Polish friend, many, many years ago, he didn't bother to use the "III". I guess the only thing it does is to tell you that there were two previous kings called "Jan"!