Eternal Damnation

[Borachio]

Well. There it is. Maybe I overstated the case.

I'm not saying Mr Corny is deliberately lying in order to convert people. I doubt he's trying to convert anyone. If he is, he's going about it the wrong way.

All I'm saying is that I don't have any reason to believe what he says. Whether he's lying or not.

I just don't understand how people can abnegate their critical faculties to such an extent that they'll accept at face value what ANY more or less ancient texts say without considering whether or not the whole thing hasn't been made up.

Simply because Muhammed claimed to be inspired by the arch-angel Gabriel doesn't of itself convince me that what is written in the Quran is true. (In fact, quite the reverse.)

Similarly for the Bible.

Now, if Mr Corny would like to relate his personal experiences of the Last Judgement and the conditions in Hell for unbelievers, I'll likely lend him an ear. But till then he's just relying on secondhand knowledge of dubious validity. At best. So why should I believe him?

I can quite see that skeptism can be taken to the extreme of cynicism. But why do I have to fall into the equally poor trap of utter gullibility?

 

[El_Machinae]

Oh, there's no doubt that there's a paucity of evidence. I just don't see any reason to invoke "intent to deceive"

 

[Crackerbox]

My experience with Sunni Muslims in the USA has been that they are extremely devout, moral, educated, sincere, and generally helpful to the impoverished due to the Five Pillars of Islam. The first adjective that comes to mind is "admirable".

Those who abuse the Quran, make spiritual claims without evidence, who are fanatical in their antipathy of others, well these are NOT the norm in America.

Look fanatacism is all bad in history. What we're seeing play out with crucifixions in the Middle East, immolating the accused, beheadings, etc these are horrendous current acts by Muslim fanatics. Let's hope it doesn't spread, for Islam is the fast growing religion in the world. If those folks supplant those who are of calm demeanor and patriotic citizens, then we're all in trouble.

 

[Tigranes]

The first adjective that comes to mind is "admirable".

Those who abuse the Quran, make spiritual claims without evidence, who are fanatical in their antipathy of others, well these are NOT the norm in America.

Look fanatacism is all bad in history.

Crackerbox,

Every faith has it's internal logic about determining "admirable" and "bad". Consider a post of 16 year old Egyptian user from tolerant Canada, with whom I enjoyed playing games here and who also strikes me as admirable, as person to person:

I often fantasize of leaving all my comfort and wealth to fight and die for a righteous cause.

ISIS is prone to failure due to its mistakes.

If I see a group that actually follows Islam and seeks to defend the Muslim community from oppressors (Such as those who attacked Muslims in Bosnia, though I will discuss that in another question), then it would appear very attractive to me.

Our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places. "My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would be fighting so that I would not be handed over to the Jews; but as it is, My kingdom is not of this realm." The idea of Caliphate, the idea of Dar al-Islam and Dar al-Harb are anti-ideas with the respect to Kingdom of God preached by the King Who came to recruit spiritual soldiers for his Kingdom.

If you are participating in crusades you are a bad Christian, or no Christian at all, because you if do not do what Christ did, nay, if you are doing opposite to what Christ did -- you are not His follower, but the one who drives nails deeper in His Flesh.

If you are not participating in Jihad (many in Muslim tradition call it not a pillar, but a peak of Islam, communal obligation) -- you are a bad Muslim! Basically good Muslims from your point of view see themselves as "not good enough", until they participate in Jihad. Muhammad did execute men on many occasions. The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master. In the examples of Jesus and Muhammad, in the example of Quran and Gospels we have a case of spiritual particle and anti-particle that annihilate each other on contact. The positron or antielectron is the antiparticle or the antimatter counterpart of the electron. The positron has an electric charge of +1e (exact opposite of electron's), a spin of ½ (same as electron), and has the same mass as an electron. When a low-energy positron collides with a low-energy electron, annihilation occurs, resulting in the production of two or more gamma ray photons.

Suras 61:10-12, 4:74, and 9:111 guarantee Islamic martyrs heaven, any other form of Muslim life, no matter how virtuous, never about guarantee future decision of Allah. The only sure way -- is to be a shahid. One can say -- what about "no greater love.." passage? Well, seems like mass is the same, spin is the same, but not the charge! Motive makes all the difference. In their first 100+ years Christianity was spread by the blood of proselytizers, while Islam by the blood of potential proselytes.

Most people here come from the West, you guys only see minority Islam in action. I come from the First Christian Country on Earth, who persevered against all odds, unlike Christian Caucasian Albania, right next to my country. Unlike Armenians, Caucasian Albanians (not to be confused with Albanians in Balkans) yielded to military and economic pressure (jizya), got gradually converted and disappeared from the pages of history. Very few even very well educated people know they have existed. You need to be Armenian in order to "feel" the arrival of early Islamic "Missionaries" to the land of Noah's Ark:

After Muhammad's death in 632, his successors started a military campaign in order to increase the territory of the new Caliphate. During the Muslim conquests, the Arabs conquered most of the Middle East.

Towards the year 639, under the leadership of Abd ar-Rahman ibn Rabiah, 18,000 Arabs penetrated the district of Taron and the region of the Lake of Van and put the country to fire and sword. The Arab warriors were poor and ill-armed, but recklessly brave and inflamed with an intense fanaticism until then unknown among ancient peoples.

On January 6, 642 the Arabs stormed and took the city of Dvin, slaughtered 12,000 of its inhabitants and carried 35,000 into slavery. Prince Theodorus of the Rshtuni family confronted the Arabs, and came out victorious by liberating the enslaved Armenians.

Bishop Sebeos recorded the history of the Arab conquest. In his History of Heraclius, he wrote of the sad fate of his country. He said,

"Who can tell the horrors of the invasion of the Ishmaelite (Arab), who set both the land and the sea ablaze? [...] The blessed Daniel foresaw and foretold like misfortunes. [...] In the following year (643), the Ishmaelite army crossed to Atrpatakan (Azerbaijan) and was divided into three corps. One moved towards Ararat; another into the territory of Sephakan Gound, the third into the land of Alans... Now that [Arab] army which was in the Ayraratean(Araratian) region put to the sword areas as far as Tayk', Iberia, and Aghbania/Aghuania. They took booty and captives and passed on to Naxchawan where the other division was battling to take the fortress of Naxchawan. However, they were unable to take it. They took the fortress of Xram, killing [the men] and taking the women and children captive.

It is very important to understand that Islam is a religion of peace on this earth. The physical Muslim territory is the territory of peace, the rest is the territory of war, which has to be pacified! "If they fight with you -- fight with them" -- this is how Muslim conquests occur, there was always a pretext, then this verse was quoted -- and the rest is the history we know all too well. This is why best Muslims join Islamic State -- there is a very fundamental concept of Islamic State on this Earth, plain and simple. On contrast, Kingdom of Heaven claims the spiritual territory of the heart of individual believer in Christ. And when He was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, He answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

 

[Crackerbox]

This is a fundamental misunderstanding of jihad and crusades. They need not be violent and involve war or even hatred, but are ideaological wars in which evangelism and conversion are the main goals...and not at the tip of a sword or with an automatic rifle.

Jihad literally means struggling or striving NOT Violence. In fact, there are verses in the Quran which FORBID force as a means of conversion.

" Allah says: “Let there be no compulsion in religion. Truth has been made clear from error. Whoever rejects false worship and believes in Allah has grasped the most trustworthy handhold that never breaks. And Allah hears and knows all things.” [Sûrah al-Baqarah: 256]

Allah says: “If it had been your Lord’s will, all of the people on Earth would have believed. Would you then compel the people so to have them believe?” [Sûrah Yûnus: 99]

Allah says: “So if they dispute with you, say ‘I have submitted my whole self to Allah, and so have those who follow me.’ And say to the People of the Scripture and to the unlearned: ‘Do you also submit yourselves?’ If they do, then they are on right guidance. But if they turn away, your duty is only to convey the Message. And in Allah’s sight are all of His servants.” [Sûrah Âl `Imrân: 20]

Allah says: “The Messenger’s duty is but to proclaim the Message.” [Sûrah al-Mâ’idah: 99] "

I realize Armenians due to their proximity to Muslims resulted in terrible genocide in history, but the basis of Jihad is not violent. It's the perversion of Islam that leads to violence and groups of fanatics like ISIS.

Take Afghanistan and Iran. Both were known by their tolerance before being seized by fanatical intolerant Muslims. There were very progressive attitudes toward the education of women in both of those countries before the nonsense and cruelty of today. Of course there were other problems like the Shah of Iran and SAVAK, but that's another story outside of Islam.

Link to video.

The Soviet invasion of Afghanistan resulted in the USA supporting the fanatical Muslims, the mujahideen, such that they could oppose them in a guerilla war. We supplied them with RPGs and other weaponry, and taught them improvised explosives. The very seeds of fanatical Islam began there, spread throughout the many regions, and are now responsible for terrorism.

The USA sent a amount huge money to Israel so the Soviets sent an equally huge amount of military and economic aid to Syria to counterbalance it.

Both the Soviets and the USA are jointly responsible for the mess we have today with the perversion of Jihad and Islam. You do realize that we support the Saudis and they in turn use their oil money to support global terrorism, right?

To bring this back to the topic of eternal damnation within a Muslim tradition, compulsion of belief would result in a false Muslim convert and not a true Muslim, so at best they would be damned in Hellfire along with any other Muslim who didn't really believe.

 

[Tigranes]

This is a fundamental misunderstanding of jihad and crusades. They need not be violent and involve war or even hatred, but are ideaological wars in which evangelism and conversion are the main goals...and not at the tip of a sword or with an automatic rifle.

You will know them by their fruits. Every second big bad news in current world has to do something with those who "abuse" Quran. But it is not an abuse, it is an intended use. History of Islam from day one was exactly history of physical struggle. Military career of Muhammad! Can even the most hateful critic of Christianity come up with Wikipedia article Military career of Jesus? This is simply mind boggling how can a former Christian minister be so blind about the true nature of the greatest anti-Message ever planted on this Earth

Jihad literally means struggling or striving NOT Violence. In fact, there are verses in the Quran which FORBID force as a means of conversion.

Wait a minute. Do you expect wolves to look like wolves when they go after sheep? Of course there must be verses than can be used in one way and verses which can be used in other way. Such as this Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. Muslims are commanded to fight unbelievers until they are either dead, converted to Islam, or in a permanent state of subjugation under Muslim domination. Allowing people of other faiths to live and worship independently of Islamic rule is not an option.

I realize Armenians due to their proximity to Muslims resulted in terrible genocide in history, but the basis of Jihad is not violent. It's the perversion of Islam that leads to violence and groups of fanatics like ISIS.

Faith was used to incite uneducated Kurds into killing Armenians, but religion played no greater role in organizing the genocide in Turkey as it played in organizing the genocide of Jews in Germany. Enver and Talaat were not motivated by their Muslim faith, but by their Turkishness. 300 years of early Christian persecutions only increased the number of Christians, even if you deny Christ under the threat of death -- how much damage does it do to Message? Nay, but if you betray Christ because of money -- jizya -- then you have true annihilation of the Message. Quran is a very, very smart, well organized book. Quran came and challenged the best literature in Arabic, the best poetry in Arabic of the time. Mohammad being illiterate couldn't possibly have come up with something so immaculate that it even exceeded the best of poetry, and literature in Arabic at the time of the language's PEAK development. Of course the arrival of Islam and Arabs was not a lucky event in blind history, everything was foretold as early as in Genesis: God said to Abraham, "Do not be distressed because of the lad and your maid; whatever Sarah tells you, listen to her, for through Isaac your descendants shall be named. "And of the son of the maid I will make a nation also, because he is your descendant." For every particle there is an anti-particle, for every truth there are numerous misconceptions but only one anti-truth. To annihilate. Secularism of Western world is just a prelude to it's Islamization. Just wait and observe the tide.

Take Afghanistan and Iran. Both were known by their tolerance before being seized by fanatical intolerant Muslims.

Revolutions succeed precisely because majority believes there is something wrong with pre-revolutionary state of affairs, in this case there was something wrong with not being "good enough Muslims" .

 

[Borachio]

Chaos. Just chaos.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatwa

In particular, how could

Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini in 1989 pronounce[d] a death sentence on Salman Rushdie, the author of The Satanic Verses?

And,

In June 1992, Egyptian writer Farag Foda was assassinated following a fatwa issued by ulamas from Al-Azhar who had adopted a previous fatwa by Sheikh al-Azhar, Jadd al-Haqq, accusing secularist writers such as Foda of being "enemies of Islam".[20] The jihadist group Al-Gama'a al-Islamiyya claimed responsibility for the murder?

And,

Osama bin Laden issued two fatwās—in 1996 and then again in 1998—that Muslims should kill civilians and military personnel from the United States and allied countries until they withdraw support for Israel and withdraw military forces from Islamic countries?

 

[Arakhor]

Secularism of Western world is just a prelude to it's Islamization. Just wait and observe the tide.

Of course it is. How could we never have seen this before?

 

[Crackerbox]

"Being not good enough" Muslims because of interference by the Soviets (later Russia) and the USA. That gave creedance to the fanatical Muslims in those places. Both sides taught explosives to such a degree that we have the mess we have today. The organization of the Muslim Brotherhood actually has gotten help from American leftists from labor unions and even Code Pink of all things. It's a bizarre situation for their ideologies are so opposite and yet they're learning how to organize and communicate from these folks. They're putting gasoline on a fire.

There have been Jews and Christians (among other groups) in the Middle East and Iran forever, but particularly since the Seventies has there been an increase in tension. The word terrorist was largely an unknown word in the West prior to that. I can remember the first time I heard the word highjacker in the early Seventies. It was completely unknown before that period.

 

[Unicorny]

The sheer amount of bigotry and ignorance on this thread never ceases to amaze me. Continue.

 

[Farm Boy]

Thems big words there Unicorny. Important ones, often necessary ones. But given their gravity, would you care to quote something or apply those words to an idea or statement specifically in your RD thread? Or are you just looking to fling a turd into the sink from across a week?

 

[Gori the Grey]

Thread had a good run, Corny. Can't suck us back in just by insulting us. Let it die now, and go to whichever eternal destination th'All-giver deems right for it.

 

[Agent327]

You will know them by their fruits. Every second big bad news in current world has to do something with those who "abuse" Quran. But it is not an abuse, it is an intended use. History of Islam from day one was exactly history of physical struggle. Military career of Muhammad! Can even the most hateful critic of Christianity come up with Wikipedia article Military career of Jesus? This is simply mind boggling how can a former Christian minister be so blind about the true nature of the greatest anti-Message ever planted on this Earth

I'm not sure how this relates to the Crusades, but soit.

Wait a minute. Do you expect wolves to look like wolves when they go after sheep? Of course there must be verses than can be used in one way and verses which can be used in other way. Such as this Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

You are literally quoting verses that do not contain anything about forecd conversion: the jizya was a tax on 'the unfaithful', allowing them to continue their practices without intereference. Religious intolerance is something quite modern in Islam - unlike in Christianity.

Secularism of Western world is just a prelude to it's Islamization. Just wait and observe the tide.

Humbug. There aren't even Islamic parties in the West. Why? Because they aren't discriminated against (yet), so they have no need to oragize such parties. This whole Íslamization of the West' isn't going to happen. Ever. Why? There aren't enough Muslims to go around. Muslims are just one of the many (religous and other) minorities in the West.

Revolutions succeed precisely because majority believes there is something wrong with pre-revolutionary state of affairs, in this case there was something wrong with not being "good enough Muslims" .

Revolutions don't succeed because of majorities: they are violent movements with little regard for such democratic niceties as 'majority' and 'minority'.