Eternal Damnation

[Crackerbox]

I don't get why there is any discussion anymore. The Surah clearly indicates all will go to Hell according to the Quran, but that some will leave at some point. So if you're a Muslim, you're damned for a time no matter what. If you're an unbeliever, the Quran is wishy-washy in how long you will stay, and seems to be a contradiction (I won't say it outright is a contradiction).

Even the Hadith of that Surah indicate that.

Case closed for Islam. Nobody escapes Hell.

 

[Borachio]

Which surah is that?

The ones you have quoted so far, or recently, are these:

[5:9] GOD promises those who believe and lead a righteous life forgiveness and a great recompense.
[5:10] As for those who disbelieve and reject our revelations, they are the dwellers of Hell.

Allah accepts ONLY the repentance of those who do evil IN IGNORANCE AND FOOLISHNESS and repent SOON afterwards; it is they to whom Allah will forgive and Allah is Ever All Knower, All Wise. And of no effect is the repentance of those who continue to do evil deeds until death faces one of them and he says: “Now I repent;” NOR of those WHO DIE while they are disbelievers. For them We have prepared a painful torment. S. 4:17-18

What are you saying? That no one does anything but continue doing evil deeds? That's certainly a point of view, I suppose.

 

[El_Machinae]

It's not too dissimilar to Christianity. It's not entirely clear in the Bible what the faithful souls do while waiting for the New Earth to be created. They sometimes hearken to the tradition of Sheol. And it's not like the concept of Purgatory sprung up from nothing.

 

[Borachio]

What about the Rapture? Doesn't that have a Biblical basis? Or is it completely fabricated out of new cloth?

 

[Crackerbox]

It's not too dissimilar to Christianity. It's not entirely clear in the Bible what the faithful souls do while waiting for the New Earth to be created. They sometimes hearken to the tradition of Sheol. And it's not like the concept of Purgatory sprung up from nothing.

The shadowy existence of Sheol in Judaic thought and illustrated in the Old Testament, and the possibility of the metaphorical illustration of Lazarus and the Rich Man (as parable most likely), may indicate some time upon death in which some may be in Paradise who are believers, whist others who are unbelievers may spend elsewhere, whist others may be punished. It's extremely unclear.

Irregardless, the Second Death in the Lake of Fire is what people think of in a general way with the concept of Hell. That's an entirely different concept, and it's no wonder the vast amount of believers don't get that.

Is Gehenna the same as the Second Death in the Book of the Revelation to John? I doubt it. If the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man is a model of Heaven, then Sheol is within it, and Gehenna might be where the Rich Man is located. It's extemely vague.

Mainstream Christianity (Protestants, Orthodox Christians, and Roman Catholics) spend very little time on the concept of Hell. Fire and Brimstone evangelicals spend too much time on Hell compared to the rest of the New Testament. Then worse, they don't explain it very well such that some truly believe they immediately go to the Second Death without evidence that this is so.

The resurrection into eternal damnation verse is extremely unclear. (John 5:29). It's cryptic. Jesus' words to the thief at the Cross indicate clarity by comparison.
36The soldiers also came up and mocked him. They offered him wine vinegar 37and said, “If you are the king of the Jews, save yourself.”

38There was a written notice above him, which read: THIS IS THE KING OF THE JEWS.

39One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: “Aren’t you the Messiah? Save yourself and us!”

40But the other criminal rebuked him. “Don’t you fear God,” he said, “since you are under the same sentence? 41We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong.”

42Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.d ”

43Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.” Luke 23: 36-43

That seems to point to believers immediately being in Paradise as a place within the realm of Heaven. But what happens to those who do not believe is not clear until at the very end of the Revelation to John, so we just don't know. If we don't know, we shouldn't be condemning the unbeliever to Hell. It's plausible that there is a mechanism for the unbeliever to be somewhere else and have a choice based upon the vague ideas of Sheol.

 

[Tigranes]

A book full of errors cannot be from God nor can have anything to do with God.

.....


What we have here? Mistranslation/misinterpretation? So somehow someone mistranslated "began his reign" when he was 42 in lieu of "ended his reign when he was 42" - even though the verse itself states: and he reigned one year in Jerusalem

Even ignoring the alleged mistranslation/misinterpretation: 22 + 1 = 42 according to their maths

Most scholars regard the 42 years in 2 Chronicles 22:2 as a copyist's error for an original 22 years. The age of 22 is also found in some Greek and Syrian versions of 2 Chronicles 22:2.

Do you understand that? I doubt it. Because for the Muslim -- The Quran is the verbatim Arabic word of Allah. Any translation -- is interpretation. I hope you agree?

Now look how is it shooting Muslims in the foot. How can Quran be a message to humanity then? I don't speak Arabic. Why do I need to learn Arabic to learn about God?

Users here probably noticed by now that I prefer to use "Revelation" or "Message", instead of "Bible", when discussing the source of spiritual truth. Because Word of God is the Son of God and God Himself. Sinful man can speak one thing but be another thing in essence. Holy God cannot, while being omnipotent. Word of God is not a language, it is the Message, a Message than can be available in any form and any language. There are many translation of the word "mother", but only one essence of a mother being a mother, even for an infant who does not speak any language. The real Message from above is Love, for God is Love. Even infant gets it, he does not need to learn Arabic in order to get saved.

Bible did not arrive to us via fax machine from Heaven. God made sure that His will be known in written form for the people through the people during the period of many, many years. In this material world He does everything through material means, including crystallizing the Revelation in form of the written word. Matter, energy, information -- these are the three words that describe everything that exists in this material world, as opposed to spiritual world we will enter after this life. We do not worship the book, we worship living Word of God, God Himself, who reveals to us in this material world, not only in form of information, but also in form of the matter, His Body and His Blood, during the Holy Eucharist. God is everywhere, His Message is everywhere, as Fine Tuning Argument shows, for example, He does not begins and ends with an actual Book, no matter how holy it is.

Now, what happened to the Living Word of God, when He visited this Earth 2000 years ago? His material physical Body was damaged, nay, even put to death, but death could not erase Word of God from this material world. Resurrection started the Day 8 for this world, when the last enemy -- death and eternal damnation -- is defeated, if you accept the Living Word of God.

Just like with the skin of Jesus, which can be damaged by the nail, a single material letter in the the particular copy of material book representing spiritual Message can be damaged by the copyist. It is not 42, it is 22, and some other copies do have it right. Does this change Message? Does this kill Message? Only if you worship the book. Not when you seek the Living God Almighty.

 

[Crackerbox]

The copying of the manuscripts of the Bible was a laborious process done by human beings. Some scribbled into the margins with commentary and some of that then became questionable later by scholars, "Is this the text or commentary?".

The scribes would literally throw away their writing instrument when they wrote the name of GOD, for it was so sacred.

It's difficult in a post-Guttenberg world, and much more so with immediate access to information through the Internet, to realize just how long it took for a scribe to write down each verse meticulously to ensure it was as error free as possible. And yet, we have more manuscripts for the Bible for scholars to comb through than any other book in history. We have no shortage of manuscripts. We accept the reality of texts with a miniscule number of copies by comparison.

Seeming contradictions in the Bible do not concern me. If someone points out contradictions in some sacred system, that alone doesn't dissuade me of the validity of the sacred system.

We neither accept a sacred system because it makes us comfortable, or if it makes us uncomforable. Trust me, Christianity makes me very uncomfortable. The initial belief in GOD is very undemanding. One can live that undemanding life, but that's not what Jesus asks us to do.

If you take it to heart, and contend or wrestle with the Scriptures (a very Jewish idea) and do altruistic things, that is very demanding and will challenge your faith.

There is no upper hand, or idea that a believer is better than an unbeliever. Central to the message of Jesus' parable of the Prodigal Son...is the opposite idea. Jesus caring for the Suffering, washing the feet of the disciples, visiting Matthew, all of these things elevate the status of the unbeliever who might be saved in humility not claiming righteousness and elevation in a social system.

 

[Unicorny]

And yet again 24 hours pass and no one has taken on the challenges that I've proposed? Thanks for proving my point.

As for Mr. Box; spreading false information as usual. 19:71: the verse is a description of how all mankind shall have to pass over Hellfire upon the "sirat" (path) in order to reach Heaven. Only the pious make it across.

All atheists and those practicing idol worship (most Christians out there today) i.e. polytheism will suffer eternal torment and will abide in Hell forever:

{Certainly, God has cursed the unbelievers and prepared for them a blazing fire to dwell therein forever, they shall find neither protector nor helper. On the day when their faces are turned about in the fire, they shall say, "Would that we had obeyed God and obeyed the Messenger!"}

Notice that 'forever'? Yep.

 

[El_Machinae]

Care to answer my challenge about how, after a thousand years of reading the Qur'an, the majority of Muslims thought that Noah's Flood was real? That your text cemented ignorance in their heads?

And that's native Arabic speakers. None of this 'bad translation' nonsense.

 

[Farm Boy]

Has the thread progressed to the inevitable, "My stipulations, therefore I stipulate you all burn in Hell forever." point in the discussion? Most hellfire and damnation monkeys who fancy the throne of God conforms to their expectations, or are at least willing to pretend for the sake of argument, get there eventually.

 

[warpus]

Next could we get an extremist fundamentalist Jew in here to tell us why he thinks we are all going to spend eternity in hell? We've already had a Christian and Muslim.. Or maybe a scientologist or some other denomination could step up to the plate instead?

 

[Unicorny]

Few people know this by the way, but it's nonetheless interesting. The false religion that is based on idol worship i.e. the cult known as Christianity today borrowed much of its traditions and customs from the pagan religion of Mithra during its early inception.

1) Hundreds of years before Jesus, according to the Mithraic religion, three Wise Men of Persia came to visit the baby savior-god Mithra, bring him gifts of gold, myrrh and frankincense..
2) Mithra was born on December 25 as told in the “Great Religions of the World”, page 330; “…it was the winter solstice celebrated by ancients as the birthday of Mithraism’s sun god”.
3) According to Mithraism, before Mithra died on a cross, he celebrated a “Last Supper with his twelve disciples, who represented the twelve signs of the zodiac.
4) After the death of Mithra, his body was laid to rest in a rock tomb.
5) Mithra had a celibate priesthood.
6) Mithra ascended into heaven during the spring (Passover) equinox (the time when the sun crosses the equator making night and day of equal length): Easter Sunday.

As you can now see, Christianity derived many of its essential elements from the ancient religion of Mithraism. Mithraism became intertwined with the cult of Jesus to form what is known today as “Christianity.” Although literary sources on this religion are sparse, an abundance of material evidence exists in the many Mithraic temples and artifacts that archaeologists have found scattered throughout the Roman Empire, from England in the north and west to Palestine in the south and east. The temples were usually built underground in caves, which are filled with an extremely elaborate iconography (illustrating by pictures, figures and images). There were many hundreds of Mithraic temples in the Roman Empire, the greatest concentrations have been found in the city of Rome itself.

Simple.

 

[Borachio]

I think you're completely mistaken. And not for the first time.

Because I think loads of people know that. More or less. Probably a bit less than more, though.

Does it make any difference to them? I don't think it does.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mithraic_mysteries

 

[PhroX]

Yeah, that whole "Christianity was just copied from Mithraism" thing is crap made up by people trying to discredit Christainity.

 

[El_Machinae]

How does disproving Christianity prove Islam? It's not like we only have two choices

 

[Borachio]

Choices:

1. Christianity is wrong, and Islam is right;
2. Christianity is right, and Islam is wrong;
3. Christianity is right and Islam is right;
4. Christianity is wrong and Islam is wrong.

And/or you could draw up another eight choices including the word "partially" in there somewhere.

 

[Arakhor]

How does disproving Christianity prove Islam? It's not like we only have two choices

Unicorny, I think it's fair to say, is showing the reverse symptoms of what might be termed Islamophobia. He posts long lists of inaccuracies in the Bible, as if this invalidates its message, in the same way that people spam quotes from the Qur'an to 'prove' that Islam is a religion of war, and has now resorted to Mithraic stuff in an effort to directly discredit Christianity, in a very similar vein to Jack Chick's infamous tract that purported to prove that Islam was originally pagan moon-worship.

What's more unusual about this whole affair is that he's also poo-pooing the Torah, despite Islam being an Abrahamic faith, and he doesn't much seem to like Jesus/Yeshua, who I thought was one of Islam's (lesser?) prophets.

As for the extreme fundamentalist Jew, we already had one of those a few years back. He was, aah, persistently unrestrained in the defence of his Jewish creationist beliefs and no longer frequents these forums.

 

[warpus]

Yeah but if we got all these extremists in one room talking to eachother, we could sit there, munch on popcorn, and watch the fireworks.

 

[Crackerbox]

I included numerous Hadith about Surah 19:71. They all were in agreement that all people go to Hell, but differ in the interpretation of what that means. Some believe Muslims will pass over by a Bridge (but this is absent from the Quran). Others believe the false Muslims will burn while the true Muslims will not suffer. Some believe all Muslims will be tested in Hellfire with every other unbelievers. Of course this is a contradiction because elsewhere it is mentioned that Jews, Christians and Sabians will not be in Hell.

This Christian doesn't believe everyone will be in Hell, warpus. You've totally misinterpreted what I painstakingly posted. What part of "Hell might be very empty..." did you misunderstand?

Nice spin-doctoring by you both. After doing my utmost to explain all of the different words used about Hell (Sheol, Hades, Gehenna, the Second Death in the Lake of Fire, etc) then your summation about my words is that "all people will end up there?" How supremely weird.

The reality of everlasting damnation within the Bible is scantly mentioned and extremely cryptic. Only the instance from the Book of Life passage in the Revelation to John indicates an ultimate ending in the Lake of Fire at the time of the Second Death. That's a far cry from the typical model of being an unbeliever= Hellfire which the fire and brimstone preachers say. It's very uncertain when that takes place, and it almost certainly can't be an immediate judgment upon death.

You've reduced over 50 pages of my text to a single sentence. Shocking and amazing.

Despite the theological concept of Hell being at the forefront of atheists' distaste of Christianity, the fact remains that the diverse ways in which Christianity manifests by denomications and branches, and yet in all of those, Hell is a minor concept that we really don't know much about, and is practically an afterthought since the Bible is written for the believer who escapes it. It is not preached about by most of the leadership very much for we have an assurance by Jesus Himself through the smallest actions of faith.

Do you think the thief at the Crucifiction was a good honest man who had devoted his life to Jesus? Is that what the text says? Or does he admit he was a notorious sinner who deserved death, but merely asked Jesus to remember him when Jesus entered Heaven?

And what does Jesus do? Grants this notorious sinner into Paradise by merely acknowledging who Jesus really is. What could be simpler?

I find it exasperating that people believe that GOD would desire for the unbeliever to be eternally damned into Hell, when in reality the entire Bible is about trying over and over and over and over for thousands of years to be in union with Humanity. The whole point of the Prodigal Son is that GOD doesn't punish us for our sins, but rushes out to greet us, meets us halfway, for merely acknowledging our dependance on GOD alone.

Christianity is nothing like Islam regarding this topic, but is extremely demanding and if you reject the Quran immediately you are condemned. There is no reconsidering it and then making a deathbed confession. The very second you hear the words of the Quran and scoff, this alone damns you to Hell. This is why it takes a trained imam to intentionally work with an unbeliever, for otherwise their failure damns people into Hellfire.

The extremely poor comments made here from a professed believer in Islam have actually done a disservice to Islam.

 

[Borachio]

Well, blow me down!

I was going to post in the Ask a religious Jew thread "What's the collective noun for a group of Jews?" But the thread's been closed!

I included numerous Hadith about Surah 19:71. They all were in agreement that all people go to Hell

This is Surah 19:71:

And there is none of you except he will come to it. This is upon your Lord an inevitability decreed.

http://quran.com/19/71-72

How does anyone conclude much of anything from that?