Eternal Damnation

Any god who would take these steps (cursing you with sin, holding you responsible for said sin and then punishing you eternally for it) is utterly unworthy of such a status.

Of course, omni-benevolence is thoroughly incompatible with any sort of punishment, let alone the eternal variety.
 
Eternal punishment? God laughs at infinite stupidity of human mind.
Eternal punishment is a contradiction to the very existence of God the infinite delight.
The purpose of any punishment is to lead one from lesser existence to greater possibilities. Eternal punishment is only theoretical concept to enslave and manipulate human mind.
 
Since folks do not understand the punishment for sinning, they cannot make an informed decision. While infinite hellfire does sound unpleasant, I cannot imagine what it actually would be like.
Maybe there's a way they can improve their understanding if it seems to be lacking.

As for burning eternally: Burn away finger, regrow finger, repeat. Replace finger with whatever part(s) suits the tormentor for each iteration.
 
If there is no time, one instant will be no different than any other amount of time imagined. It can be considered that human's currently dead are being punished. But eternal damnaton is not an ongoing process.
 
If there is no time, one instant will be no different than any other amount of time imagined. It can be considered that human's currently dead are being punished. But eternal damnaton is not an ongoing process.

It still makes as much sense as crusading for peace and love...
 
There is not anything that makes sense about a crusade.
 
As for burning eternally: Burn away finger, regrow finger, repeat. Replace finger with whatever part(s) suits the tormentor for each iteration.

You know, given enough time (and eternity is surely enough), I reckon I could get used to that. I might even get to enjoy it. And after a bit, I'd be sure to become addicted, to the extent that I couldn't live (!) without it.
 
And we're yet to have anyone debate for or against the notion of eternal damnation being justifiable as per the debate formulation outlined in the OP.

Feel free to argue against or for the debate in question.

Not remotely justifiable, especially not for failing to follow religious code. If Christianity is to be believe its been nearly 2000 years since God properly communicated with humanity, from then on out the only messengers of his rules are other humans who cant even properly agree what the rules are. I mean who is right? Catholics? Baptists? Methodists? To punish people with torture for all eternity because they do not believe or follow rules told to them by other people is not justifiable.

I mean frankly speaking its not really justifiable to torture people for any length or time, but basing it on humans not believing other humans is certainly a whole other level of non-justifiable.

Good for you. You found a flaw in the notion of Christianity being adequate enough to communicate the finality of God's message. After all, common sense dictates that God's final communicated form must be both unchanged and perfectly preserved since it's revelation. The Bible, although originally being revealed from God, has been tampered with an altered and therefore does not meet the criteria.

Ergo, Christianity is not the final form of God's communication to us humans.

An atheist does not intend to disobey the word of God, an atheist does not believe the words religious men say are the words of God. If a child is told by another that the teacher said to not play with the classroom legos, but the child does not believe him it is incorrect to say the child intends to disobey the teacher. The child still does not know the rule.

Since God is true (per OP framework), and in order to give humanity a fair chance of avoiding eternal damnation, it goes without saying that a just God will communicate via revelations to his subjects. Having said that, what criteria or qualities would you ascribe to the word of God in order for you or anyone else to believe that they are indeed from God? Qualities that I can think of - words that have been:

  • Unaltered and preserved since their revelation
  • Flawless, perfect, and free of any errors or contradictions
  • Inimitable and unique from a linguistic and literary point of view; that no human effort would be able to produce anything that likes of
  • Optional: contain evidence of scientific phenomena and/or historical events that were unknown and beyond a human's ability to discover at the time of revelation

Feel free to add to that list if you wish.

If the above points are proven, will you still deny that said words are from God or would you accept them?
 
Is conscious eternal torment morally justified?


In conclusion, an eternal hell is justified because of the infinite severity of intentional sin due to the infinite status of God. Some sins are indeed infinitely severe due to their everlasting consequences on the soul of an individual and finally, hell fire is essentially an indirect choice made by an individual when they freely choose to reject the message of God. All these reasons strongly support the doctrine of an eternal hell.

This is too much of a mental jugglery which can justify about anything. But given the fact that God is likely a supramental entity unbounded by morals I dont see why would eternal damnation need moral justification. The question should be: does it make any sense in relation to God and its infinity?
What does eternal damnation represent? God is the fulness, Bliss. The damnation is the opposite. It can be a temporary phenomen, most likely just a mental formation or projection but thats all...
 
This is too much of a mental jugglery which can justify about anything. But given the fact that God is likely a supramental entity unbounded by morals I dont see why would eternal damnation need moral justification. The question should be: does it make any sense in relation to God and its infinity?
What does eternal damnation represent? God is the fulness, Bliss. The damnation is the opposite. It can be a temporary phenomen, most likely just a mental formation or projection but thats all...

God is just and perfect, therefore, perfectly just. Perfect justice is moral otherwise it would not qualify as perfect justice in the first place. Therefore, God upholds morality.

Moreover, to give us humans a fair and rational choice, eternal damnation must be moral otherwise subjects will reject said notion and question God's characters leading them to either reject the notion of eternal damnation or the notion of God itself. Even more so, commit heinous crimes thinking that no eternal damnation awaits them, i.e. eternal damnation serves as a deterrent too.

Eternal damnation represents the consequences of your free will actions; for example: the consequence of terminating one's life is permanent, therefore, a permanent punishment would be needed to balance the crime itself - in modern societies, life sentences are usually handed out to those guilty of murder - now given that the soul is also eternal (per OP) - therefore, a "life sentence" to the soul is eternal by definition i.e eternal damnation.

That was only the 2nd point, OP cover the rest.
 
I think this is an important moral question. We should acknowledge that there's very little evidence for eternal damnation, but the believer can then choose two things (a) whether to believe that God would do this and (b) whether such behaviour is morally justified. It's a big question for the believer, because you're risking believing a lie and you're risking approving of something (that may or may not be true). "God is love, but eternally torments souls" is an incredible potential piece of libel.

When I was younger, I was accused of raping and murdering several women. The evidence for this was not very sound. My mother, who loves me very much, preached to all her friends and the media that my actions were not only acceptable but morally proper. She publicly condemned by defense attorney (who tried to disprove the accusations), since she said I'd done the right thing. She'd get very mad at anyone who said I'd done wrong. She'd spin great philosophies proving (in her mind) that this was a good thing I'd done.

No, of course none of that happened. But a loving mother wouldn't do such a thing. She'd hunt out and find all pieces of evidence that I was innocent of the slander against me. She'd critically analyze any suggestion that I'd done such monstrous deeds. She's proclaim all the reasons to disavow the very poor evidence against me. She loves me. She'd not be capable of entertaining the idea that I'd done evil.

So, a few challenges to the OP.

God both knows what will happen whilst people still having Free Will (Molinism)
But then you're given the question of why God would create the people He knew would fail the test. Their torment has no purpose, because there's no logical reason why He couldn't just create those who succeed. There's no violation of Free Will, it's not like God creates infinite people.

I dunno, it's like me pouring a barrel of cats and kittens into a campfire. I already know the cats are going to be able to leap out. I already know the kittens won't be able to. To say the kittens 'deserve' their slow, agonizing death is non-nonsensical.

My first contention focuses on the severity of sin based on the status of the being it is being directed towards. This falls in line with general moral intuitions.
This might be the difference between 'sin' and 'morals', but I disagree. The severity of the evil is proportionate to how much harm you've caused, which is a function of how weak your victim is. The reason why stabbing someone is worse than playfully punching them (too hard) is because you've hurt the person more. The more powerful someone is, the less any moral transgression hurts them. The 'lighter' my moral transgression is, in impact, the less harm was caused.
An important consideration with this idea of the level of immorality increasing with higher status is the intentionality of the sin. For example, hitting someone with your car by accident rather than on purpose is much less immoral or even amoral rather than the latter.
Intention matters, sure. But intentionally throwing a balled up piece of paper at someone is much less immoral that striking them with your car. This is because the damage caused is more. You cannot harm God.
the effects continue to last until God relieves them. Murder of an innocent is has an eternal and permanent result, as a terminated life cannot be brought back, ever.
Here you contradict yourself. There's no permanent effect, except for what God wills. Even worse, God intentionally created the innocent victim, knowing that His other creation would victimize her.

When I was younger, I told my son to not play ball near my car. One day, he bounced the ball and dented the side-panel of my car. Now, the panel was plastic, so it could be just popped back out.

But I didn't do that. I left the dent in, and each day from then on, I beat my son with a stick as punishment for disobeying me and for creating permanent damage to my car. One day, as he was crying and calling me evil, I took him out back and poured a bucket of kittens onto a fire just to prove my point about how he deserved it.

No, none of that is true, obviously. If someone tried to justify me beating my son daily, they'd not only be morally incorrect, but they'd be factually incorrect. I've never done such a thing.
This contention shows that Hell is ultimately a choice made by the individual and not be blamed upon God. According to God's message, this entire life is a test, it is a preparation for the next life to come.
It's an incoherent stance, firstly, since there's no need for the test. But even if there's a 'logical' reason for the test, there's no reason to create the beings that would fail the test. When I take a calculus test, the teacher does not include all the grades in the school and our pets. We already know the children and the animals cannot do calculus.

The second major question is who benefits from the creation of Eternal Fire? God is infinite, He doesn't need Eternal Fire to justify His authority. The faithful are only potentially harmed, if they have any loved ones burning (they could become callous to the fates of their formed loved ones, but how is that 'good'?). The punishment doesn't benefit the sinner.

I dunno. To me, it takes an incredible amount of callousness to choose to justify such things, especially given the strong lack of evidence. What if God does not do such things? Should I be proud of my mother, who sought to justify the evil of which I was falsely accused? Or has her beliefs blighted my relationship with her?
 
God is just and perfect, therefore, perfectly just. Perfect justice is moral otherwise it would not qualify as perfect justice in the first place. Therefore, God upholds morality.
Perfection is supramoral. Thats why the jews could crucify Jesus becouse they rationalise Jesus actions as immoral instead looking for his divinity.
 
I see that some posters still do not understand the frame work of the debate in question: debate against or for the notion of eternal damnation.

If you disagree with the notion of eternal damnation, list your reasons why. Quoting my post and stating that "I'm wrong - or I disagree with you" is rather strange and frankly pointless.
 
Eternal damnation is non-sense since that would allow permanent possibility of imperfection within God existence while Gods purpose is Kingdom of heaven - complete transformation and not an exclusive club - notion appealing to egoistic miser and not to all powerfull diety...
 
Oh, sure. I don't believe in God or the soul. The consequences of your moral choices are already borne in the physical universe.

I thought we were debating the morality of eternal damnation. I tried to bump it up a notch by discussing the morality of justifying eternal damnation
 
Eternal damnation is non-sense since that would allow pernanent possibility of imperfection within God existence..

How? Could you elaborate further on your assertion that eternal damnation would permanently infringe on God's perfect character?

Oh, sure. I don't believe in God or the soul. The consequences of your moral choices are already borne in the physical universe.

I thought we were debating the morality of eternal damnation. I tried to bump it up a notch by discussing the morality of justifying eternal damnation

How about justifying the immortality of eternal damnation given the frame work in the OP - something that's actually relevant here.

It never ceases to amaze me how keen some posters are on turning everything into a personal battle here. Debate the resolution ("Is Eternal Damnation Morally Justified given the frame work in the OP?"), and not the poster.
 
How? Could you elaborate further on your assertion that eternal damnation would permanently infringe on God's character.

Itsnt about character really. Source of creation is Gods Bliss and it is the struggle from the unconscious form of existence to its Absolute fullness which gives this creation meaning. Eternal damnation is in direct opposition to that. To put it bluntly its invention of Satan and the medieval church...
 
I already did that bit, a couple posts up :)

According to your own admission, was that not your attempt at questioning the morality of justifying the morality of eternal damnation and a random story thrown in between?

I've yet to see you tackle the resolution in question: is eternal damnation moral given the frame work in the OP?

Itsnt about character really. Source of creation is Gods Bliss and it is the struggle from the unconscious form of existence to its Absolute fullness which gives this creation meaning. Eternal damnation is in direct opposition to that. To put it bluntly its invention of Satan and the medieval church...

Punishment is proportionate to sin. Now sin comprises two things. First, there is the turning away from the immutable good, which is infinite, wherefore, in this respect, turning away from God -the infinite good- is a sin of infinite consequence. That alone justifies eternal damnation. Secondly, there is the inordinate turning to mutable good. In this respect sin is finite, both because the mutable good itself is finite, and because the movement of turning towards it is finite, since the acts of a creature cannot be infinite. Accordingly, in so far as sin consists in turning away from something, its corresponding punishment is the "pain of loss," which also is infinite, because it is the loss of the infinite good, i.e. God. But in so far as sin turns inordinately to something, its corresponding punishment is the "pain of sense," which is also finite.

Also: free will: everyone has a free chance to decide their fate in this world. Right now, as you're reading this, what's stopping you from doing your own research and searching for the truth? Surely, if God is true, the truth must be somewhere out there. You only have to try.
 
And each particular volition, is each one its own individual material thing?

Was [your fancy for pork chops with sage] its own particular material object? In your head, the way we usually imagine these things? In your brain?

Yup.

We're still left with the problem of how an immaterial thing can affect a material thing.

Now, just to make sure that we’re using language the same way, that we mean the same things by words like “material” and “thing” and “object” and even “individual,” are you saying that your inclination toward sage pork chops on August 23, 2012 was a distinct material object within your brain, like a little grain of rice, that, with sufficiently precise surgery could have been removed from your brain without impacting anything else in your mind; that it would be a distinct little object that could be set apart on a tray and measured and weighed; it would have its own physical boundaries; that removing it from your brain would have ended your desire for pork chops; maybe even that it could be inserted in someone else’s brain and they would begin to fancy pork chops?

When you say “yup,” to the question as to whether your volition was an individual material thing, do you mean “individual material thing” in that sense?
 
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