Ethiopians?

[Öjevind Lång]

No, those are European powers that colonized African land. That doesn't make them an African empire... They're still European empires.

Also, the argument that Egypt is not "black" African as someone else mentioned is disputed. The idea that Egypt wasn't "black" derives from the eugenics race "sciences" of the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries. Although many academics rejected racial eugenics after the Nazi experiment, unfortunately remnants of the race sciences continue to linger. The attempt to separate Egypt from "black" Africa is a myth that I see often repeated in these forums and it drives me crazy. The race sciences argued that Egypt's culture was a result of its interaction with the European and Asian civilizations, as a way to discredit "black" African civilization.

The Egyptians themselves say that they are "neither black nor white - they are brown". Also, they share the common-sense approach that their culture belongs much more to the Middle East than to sub-Saharan Africa. Perhaps their stance in this regard (which is borne out both by the way they look today and the way they look in their ancient art, as well as by the nature of their culturala chievements) should be respected more than the claims of African-Americans.

 

[Öjevind Lång]

Yet another ignorant Civfanatic. All ancient empires, and most contemporary empires, had their hands in Africa. You do not have the Persian, the Greek, the French, or the English empire (and many others) without Africa!! Learn some history before displaying your ignorance.

The fact that the Persians conquered Egypt, as did Alexander the Great at a later point, does not mean that Africa had a great impact on Persia or Greece. And so on.

 

[Öjevind Lång]

I heard Thailand is known for the same, at least the only one in Asia. Not 100% sure though.

Thailand was occupied by Japan during the Second World War.

By the way, I don't understand why some posters seem to feel a need to make Ethiopia look great by being dismissive of Mali. The western Arican countries of the Middle Ages were economically and culturally vibrant, and I am glad that Mali has been included torepresent them. I am also happy that Ethiopia has been included, of course.

The claim that Egypt was somehow a black African culture is no doubt connected to the Pyramids. Apparently, the Pyramids are perceived as so impressive that they have to be claimed on behalf of black Africa. I know for a fact that the Egyptians themselves are puzzled by those constant claims, which apparently are most often made by black Americans.

 

[PimpyMicPimp]

Maybe we should stop putting so much importance on something as trivial as skin colour.

It doesn't matter what colour your skin is, we're all part of the same race: the human race.

 

[witten]

Thailand was occupied by Japan during the Second World War.

Actually it was not the case. They had military alliance and Japan had right of passage through Thai but I can't find the record of occupation or surrender from the Thailand.

(ref.) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Thailand

 

[fromashes_rise]

no ojevind

you are simply wrong

here are 11 statements posted by someone on this site nearly two years a go which still has not been refuted.

i would like you to reply to all of them and tell us why they are wrong please.

Tactician ZhaoOct 22, 2005, 08:53 PM
on the "race" of ancient Egyptians, I have read many things, and both sides of the debate.. I do not typically worry about things such as this, but I found it interesting as it was a fierce debate..

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/Forum8/HTML/000813.html

I really have no opinion one way or the other, but the poster has interesting points

#1 Early Kemetians were descendants of Proto-Sahara (African interior) migrants.

#2 Ancient Egyptian culture was indigenous to Africa.

#3 Various traditions and rituals of Kemetians originated the African interior.

#4 The predominantly Black populations of Upper Egypt took the initiative in cultural and military development, and were responsible for the creation of the Egyptian Nation or empire.

#5 Some Ancient Egyptian rituals, traditions and values are still alive, even if the society has undergone significant transformations through foreign influx, conflict, modernization and globalization.

#6 Presence of foreigners in Egypt, in no way negates the African nature or origins of Ancient Egypt.

#7 Ancient Egyptians were definitely not Arabs.

#8 Not “all” contemporary Egyptians can be called Arab, even if politically Egypt is called an Arab Republic.

#9 “Arab” doesn’t equate to “non-black” or “non-African”. In fact Arab origins can be traced back to West Asian and East African roots!

#10 Half castes or mulattos cannot automatically become “Caucasian” or “non-African”.

#11 Contemporary Egyptians are still biologically, politically and geographically African!


BTW: where do you get your knowledge of African history from?

 

[bonafide11]

I heard Thailand is known for the same, at least the only one in Asia. Not 100% sure though.

Witten: You're right on about this, Thailand, which is not an island, has never been colonized and is known for it as well. Also, you're right on about your previous message to the bigot...

 

[Öjevind Lång]

no ojevind

you are simply wrong

here are 11 statements posted by someone on this site nearly two years a go which still has not been refuted.

i would like you to reply to all of them and tell us why they are wrong please.

Tactician ZhaoOct 22, 2005, 08:53 PM
on the "race" of ancient Egyptians, I have read many things, and both sides of the debate.. I do not typically worry about things such as this, but I found it interesting as it was a fierce debate..

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/Forum8/HTML/000813.html

I really have no opinion one way or the other, but the poster has interesting points

#1 Early Kemetians were descendants of Proto-Sahara (African interior) migrants.

#2 Ancient Egyptian culture was indigenous to Africa.

#3 Various traditions and rituals of Kemetians originated the African interior.

#4 The predominantly Black populations of Upper Egypt took the initiative in cultural and military development, and were responsible for the creation of the Egyptian Nation or empire.

#5 Some Ancient Egyptian rituals, traditions and values are still alive, even if the society has undergone significant transformations through foreign influx, conflict, modernization and globalization.

#6 Presence of foreigners in Egypt, in no way negates the African nature or origins of Ancient Egypt.

#7 Ancient Egyptians were definitely not Arabs.

#8 Not “all” contemporary Egyptians can be called Arab, even if politically Egypt is called an Arab Republic.

#9 “Arab” doesn’t equate to “non-black” or “non-African”. In fact Arab origins can be traced back to West Asian and East African roots!

#10 Half castes or mulattos cannot automatically become “Caucasian” or “non-African”.

#11 Contemporary Egyptians are still biologically, politically and geographically African!


BTW: where do you get your knowledge of African history from?

OK. Here are my replies:

1. *Everybody* is descended from African interior migrants. You, I, Montezuma, Napoleon - everybody. That doesn't mean that the ancient Egyptians were black and negroid.

2. In antiquity, Egypt was regarded as part of Asia, not of Africa. Anyway, it is quite possible to have a Middle Eastern culture even if your country is part of Africa. It's not just that Egypt *is* part of the Middle East. The Golden Horde had an Asian (Mongolian) culture despite living in eastern Europe. The Moors in Granada had an Arabic culture despite living in Europe for centuries. Your source is confusing geography with ethnicity.

3. And various traditions and rituals did not originate in the African interior. They came from the Sumerians and other Asian cultures or evolved in Egypt.

4. The claim that the population of Upper Egypt was "predominantly black" is, frankly, rubbish. They were brown, just like their northern brethren.

5. If "some Ancient Egyptian rituals, traditions and values are still alive", that does not prove that they are black African.

6. "Presence of foreigners in Egypt, in no way negates the African nature or origins of Ancient Egypt." This statement pretends to prove what it is merely claiming, that is to say, that the Egyptians were black with a sub-Saharan culture. Of course Egypt did not become European because of the presence of Greeks; or Jewish because of the presence of Jews; or black African because of the presence of Kushite invaders at one point. The question is whether the ancient Egyptians were black, negroid Africans with a culture similar to cultures south of Sahara, and the answer is "No".

7. No one has ever claimed that the ancient Egyptians were Arabs.

8-10. None of those statements has any bearing at all on the genetic makeup or the origin of the people in ancient Egypt, or on the origins of their culture. In fact, they are extremely weird. What is this talk about mulattoes? And is your source also claiming that the Arabs are black Africans?

11. When your source says that "contemporary Egyptians are still biologically, politically and geographically African", the first statement is untrue (if by "biologically African" you mean "black") because the vast majority of modern Egyptians are not black or Negroid, the second statement is gibberish (what on earth is "politically African"?) and the third one - that the Egyptians are "geographically African" is irrelevant. The Afrikaners are also "geographically African", and yet they are (to the larger part) of European ancestry. By that I don't mean to say that the ancient Egyptians were of European ancestry; I am just trying to demonstrate how silly the whole "geographical" argument is.

As for you final question: "Where do you get your knowledge of African history from?" all I can say is that I clearly get it from better sources than the person who authored those eleven points.

 

[bonafide11]

"The question is whether the ancient Egyptians were black, negroid Africans with a culture similar to cultures south of Sahara, and the answer is "No"."

I'm sorry Ojevind, but you're simply wrong. You didn't prove a single point in your post. You didn't even bother answering the questions that fromashes asked, but you just declared them wrong. Ancient Egypt was first established by Negroid peoples from the South who came up the Nile.

To quote the great W.E.B. Du Bois on the subject:
"The Egyptians were Negroids, and not only that, but by tradition they believed themselves descended not from the whites or the yellows, but from the black peoples of the south. They traced their origin, and toward the south in earliest days they turned the faces of their buried corpses.

"Gradually, of course, the Egyptians became a separate inbred people with characteristics quite different from their neighbors. They were brown in color and painted themselves as such, but they recognized other colors and sorts of men. They were in continuous contact with the blacks to the south."

Source: W.E.B. Du Bois, The World & Africa, On Egypt...

 

[cybrxkhan]

well, in my ignorant view, the Egyptians couold've possibly been one of the first multi-racial nations on earth - they could've been a mix of African (Nubian origin), Middle Eastern, and *maybe* a bit of white here and there. there were some portraits of pharaohs that looked negroid, there were others that looked more caucasoid.

however, the Egyptians considered themselves to be brown, not black, not white, and not red/yellow.

anyhow, the claim that all Egyptians were black was made by the black equivilent of black supremacists, trying to prove to the whites that blacks were important to the development of civilization. and don't get me wrong, blacks had their share of civilization development with whites, asians, middle easterners, and other peoples, but this is an absurb claim.

the claim that Egyptians were all "whitish" or caucasoid came from white scholars in the 19th century, who refused to believe that one of the oldest and greatest civilizations on earth could've been built up by anyone but white people. infact, these scholars were so rascist when ancient city ruins were discovered in the middle of Zimbabwe, they believed them to be of white poeple.


probably, the Ancient Egyptians were not so different than modern Egyptians. modern Egyptians look more similar to Arabs that Germans or Zulus.

HOWEVER, there is substantial and growing evidence that the origins of Egyptian civilization could've come from the south, from Nubia or the areas near it. lately, archaeological finds have found various pots, tools, and other things with clearly pharaonic symbols drawn on them. it is, possible, then, that the Egyptian civilization could've came from Nubia, and if so, then perhaps it is plausible to claim that the Egyptians, at first, may have been for the majority black.

however, one must note that the Egyptians themselves were divided into two main groups - the Lower Egyptians based on the delta and the Upper Egyptians based on the more southern parts of ancient Egypt. both groups were different enough, at least as different as the North of America and the Deep South of America. the Lower Egyptians were probably more influenced by the Mesopotamian and Middle Eastern cultures, and the Upper Egyptians more by the proto-Egyptian cultures in Nubia. however, in the end, somehow, the two Egypts united, which brings me back to my original point - in my opinion, the Egyptians probably could've been the first multi-racial society.

 

[Bakuel]

@ Ojevind Lang, oh yeah sure blame the African Americans. Where, pray tell dear friend, did African-Americans enter this topic? I guess if some thinks Egyptians are “black” they are instantly under the sway of African American propaganda. Did anyone reference claims to African Americans or quote them before bonafide11 post above quoting our good friend Du Bois… Blasted crosspost. But you referenced African Americans before that anyhow.

Anyhow, why does this topic about the “blackness” or “whiteness” or “brownness” of Ancient Egyptians hold such sway over people? Many of the greatest Flame Warriors have died over the Internets argue over this topic, why does it matter so much? Light-haired mummies, South Nile origin stories, weird claims of genetic information, silly culture analyses which try to link Egypt with Asia or Africa, quotes of random ancient authors describing Egyptians, claims of racism on both sides, and much much more! Should more
Noble Warriors die over this topic?
On a more serious note, maybe you all should make another topic on the history forum about the "blackness", "whiteness", "brownness" or what have you of the Egyptians, I don't mean to sound like a prick, but I have seen topics closed for going off topic before.

Having said that, has anyone noticed how insane it is that Janissaries in civ have a darker skin then the Arabic and Egyptian UU? It’s true; slave soldiers mainly drawn from the Greeks of the Ottoman Empire have darker skin then Arabs and Egyptians!

Edit: No!! Another crosspost! Blast you cybrxkhan! j/k You threaten to derail the topic away from Ethiopia as well!

On a more serious note, I think saying that Egyptians were the first multi-racial society is laying on a bit thick, I mean, that's a pretty wild claim.

 

[cybrxkhan]

Having said that, has anyone noticed how insane it is that Janissaries in civ have a darker skin then the Arabic and Egyptian UU? It’s true; slave soldiers mainly drawn from the Greeks of the Ottoman Empire have darker skin then Arabs and Egyptians!

actually, a lota medditeranean Europeans have dark skin. whatever, who cares, its just a game.

and back on the Egyptians - who cares what color they were - except for rascists and supremacists. im sure all of you can agree that Egypt, one of the worlds oldest civilizations, was a great, gloriuos, and majestic civilization. really, instead of calling them black or white or brown or whatever, they're just Egyptians.

and anyhow, back on topic, where is a Ethiopia-basher or Ethiopia-supporter?

 

[bonafide11]

Sorry, I know I have been instigating this debate, but it really annoys me when people deny the influence or impact of "black" African culture. This is a debate that goes back several hundred, if not a couple thousand, years.

But anyway, I'm really excited to see Ethiopia (according to Greek legend, Ethiopia means the "land of the burnt faces") included as a Civilization.

 

[cybrxkhan]

On a more serious note, I think saying that Egyptians were the first multi-racial society is laying on a bit thick, I mean, that's a pretty wild claim.

perhaps my view can be considered overexaggeration. thats just my ignorant conclusion based on my personal research and studying. but i am sure we will agree that definitely Egypt wasn't 100% white, it wasn't 100% black.

but anyways, like in the case of SE Asia, Firaixs finally realizes that there is more to Africa than Brit-killing Zulus!

 

[Bianezzi]

My family comes from Malta and Sicilia and have 100% European ascent, and I have quite a brown skin. Hell, I could pass for a Egyptian

Ok, so I'm just going off-topic. Back to discussing Great Abyssinia.

 

[Solo4114]

I think that Italy won, but never occupied. I do know that Ethiopians at least claim that. Then again, Chinese claim that America faked the Moon landing, Osama bin Laden lives in New York, and Jack Daniels is made in China. :\

As a Tennessee Squire, I can assure you that Jack Daniels is NOT made in China.

 

[Öjevind Lång]

I'm sorry Ojevind, but you're simply wrong. You didn't prove a single point in your post. You didn't even bother answering the questions that fromashes asked, but you just declared them wrong. Ancient Egypt was first established by Negroid peoples from the South who came up the Nile.

To quote the great W.E.B. Du Bois on the subject:
"The Egyptians were Negroids, and not only that, but by tradition they believed themselves descended not from the whites or the yellows, but from the black peoples of the south. They traced their origin, and toward the south in earliest days they turned the faces of their buried corpses.

"Gradually, of course, the Egyptians became a separate inbred people with characteristics quite different from their neighbors. They were brown in color and painted themselves as such, but they recognized other colors and sorts of men. They were in continuous contact with the blacks to the south."

Source: W.E.B. Du Bois, The World & Africa, On Egypt...

I'm sorry, but you and your Afrocentric friends are the ones who are wrong. Your quoting the hallucinations of W. E. B. Du Bois gives the game away. Since we could go on forever like this - I making the same points and you simply refusing to acknowledge them - I'm out of this discussion.

Anyway, I am glad that Ethiopia is in the game now. I argued for it all the time as much preferable to yet another European civ.

 

[Öjevind Lång]

Actually it was not the case. They had military alliance and Japan had right of passage through Thai but I can't find the record of occupation or surrender from the Thailand.

(ref.) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Thailand

All that means is that Thailand remained formally "independent" in return for giving the Japanese the freedom to move about at will in their country.

 

[jkp1187]

This may sound totally noobish to some of you, but I've never really studied any African history outside of Carthaginian and Egyptian... So I'm forced to ask, what did the Ethiopians do that what so great? I know they held the Italians out for a while, but that doesn't seem that great an accomplishment...

Does it make sense now? Does all this answer your original question?

 

[cybrxkhan]

Does it make sense now? Does all this answer your original question?